What to do with Hammer?

[Nyel.1843]

Title.

 

Just playing a Revenant (starting fresh) and I have no idea what I should do with this weapon. The skills feel so lackluster and weak, there's no trait line supporting the weapon, I'm just so confused what to do with it.

 

Is there something the Hammer excels at? Are there Hammer builds in PvE and PvP? Or is this weapon just existing that Revenant has some kind of ranged weapon without any real purpose though?

[Telgum.6071]

Hammer is very good for zerging in WvW. Outside that, is bad / subpar.

[Angesombre.4630]

And on top of that it has been broken on damage and skill 2.

[vilesoldier.9826]

Shao does well with it in PvP. Ask nicely and I’m sure he could share some insights. 

 

Though spoilers, revenant’s “weak” weapons are mostly considered that way bc they don’t fit the mold of conventional power rev builds/playstyles  (but tbf hammer is p buggy)

[Dahkeus.8243]

Yea, hammer is very effective for large organized groups in WvW since it can drop nearly unparalleled AoE burst at range without being hindered much by reflects.  
 

If it weren’t for reflects in WvW, it would be far behind the pack compared to other weapons and builds.  However, hammer Herald has been a staple of the WvW Zerg meta for a long time primarily because of the niche strengths this weapon has.  
 

Outside of that though…yea, it’s very inferior.  Short Bow renegade is by far the superior ranged weapon in pretty much every other situation.  Even in WvW, the short bow is still superior in solo, small group, and medium group situations since it deals more damage overall as well as against enemies/siege in top of walls.  Reflects are their only weakness.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

Its non-autoattack attacks are good in WvW because they get past projectile hate, when they don't bug out.

Otherwise, if you need a range weapon and you're not playing renegade, it's literally your only option.

That's pretty much all it has going for it.

It was decent once (not great, but decent), but ArenaNet nerfed the living kitten out of it for the sake of WvW before they admitted that PvE and competitive needed skill splits, and never thought to go back and make it a suitable weapon for other game modes again.

[Buran.3796]

19 hours ago, Nyel.1843 said:

Is there something the Hammer excels at? Are there Hammer builds in PvE and PvP? Or is this weapon just existing that Revenant has some kind of ranged weapon without any real purpose though?

   No.

   At the release of HoT hammer #2 (Coalescence of Ruin) delivered massive AoE damage, has tracking on targets (similar to how Sevenshots works now), wasn't canceled by you slighly  moving, wasn't canceled by slight uneven terrain and the main source for focused AoE damage spikes in WvW, AND has a 2 SECONDS cooldown. so was a crucial asset at every zerg vs zerg or scrin guild vs guild fight in that game mode. That made comically overpowered in that game mode, despite overall the hammer was just decent at PvP and utterly mediocre at PvE due the low dps and lack of utility.

   Then, starting at 2016 the hammer got a cascade of unending nerfs, mostly damage and cooldowns, but the straw that broke the camel's back was the changes in Coalescence of Ruin mechanic, which entirely changed how works, turning it in a buggy mess that no longer tracks, requires manual placement to release the attack, it's canceled if you slighly move in any direction (but specially lateral displacements) or change your angle during the animation, enters in full cooldown if is canceled and oftenly EVEN if you have done all right still delivers no damage because the hit detection is bugged (that started to happen after the rework of the damage model; initially the skill delivered more damage the farther away the target was, then the damage was normalized and then was neutered). 

   The release of PoF and addition of Renegade and the short bow nuked the hammer and ensured that no one would longer use core Rev or Herald at instanced content. Aside from Scrapper, hammers are overall in a very bad state at the game, since most of them were focused on having slow having slow skills but strong cc, so the lower damage was compensated by the utility. But then a few years ago ANet nerfed the damage across all classes and chose to remove the damage from all skills that delivered hard cc in PvP and WvW, so that was pretty much the end of those weapons for Warriors, Guardians and Revs.

   IMO what made it useless was not the damage or cooldown nerfs but the changes on the CoR mechanics which turned it from broken OP to a buggy unreliable PoS. The only good thing is that as a Rev you don't have to craft a ascended or legendary hammer ever...

[Farohna.6247]

It's too bad, I have some fun skins for them that would look amazing on my rev 🙁

[Shao.7236]

Hammer is heavily dependent on specific playstyles for it's effectiveness, in WvW you can get away with more ways to play because you don't have to worry much about the dynamics and quirks of the weapon when free casting from the back line.

 

In PvP however you really have to keep in mind what makes it superior to other weapons and always take advantage of that.

 

That playstyle revolves around counter pressuring with Phase Smash or combining CoR with all sorts of Revenant utility, most commonly quickness which is generous for a reason on the profession, Vindicator also has got itself more of it which has improved hammer potential but the general rule above any range weapon is the same, keep your distances or at least be far enough.

 

In Conquest you can and without exaggeration turn around node heavy fights by cleverly mixing utilities and without having to worry of much unless everyone decides to focus you which hammer isn't shy of having good tactics either, you can still survive well if not better than other weapons because Phase Smash is the lowest CD and can lure compared any other options, Field of the Mists also providing some sustain and healing.

 

I would say Hammer plays best with Jalis to go about uninterrupted and sustaining and anything else you pick defines your ability to approach. I'm not gonna cover all the options but one of the best combo as Shiro / Jalis is you can get away with a lot of Quickness to AA in teamfights (Phase Smash + FotM nodes) while delivering unblockable AoE Bursts / CC all within not having to be worried of dying by range pressure and people be forced to chase you.

 

You want to pack your options and always deliver them in with purpose rather than thinking you can simply hit stuff from a distance and never have to do anything else. CoR is in a bad state yes and absolutely requires proper use of CC or opportunities rather than something you can just slide in without care, it is still your main damaging skill and not to be underestimated by others however missing it puts you in really bad spot too for that reason.

 

Phase Smash is much of the same but to help understanding it should be seen as a better Unrelenting Assault, it is instant, doesn't rely on multiple hits, controllable, has low cost, lower CD and provides Chill to setup other things like CoR.

 

I could elaborate more on other skills but the theme builds itself quite fast once you get the flow down.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Unequip>right click>destroy

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Use it for zerging, anywhere else it's dоgshit because of repetitive nerfs.

[Ausar.9542]

On 6/18/2022 at 11:38 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

Hammer is very good for zerging in WvW. Outside that, is bad / subpar.

also to add to this. Hammer is useless without Shiro or Dragon Legend. 

[Catchyfx.5768]

Hammer is great for the best endgame content -> Fashion baby

[ScottBroChill.3254]

At least we throw the hammer so we can just throw it in the trash

 

[Yasai.3549]

Hammer has natural synergy with itself, but the way its implemented is very, very bad. 

For one, the auto attacks and animation are really slow, even with quickness. This is compared to similar ranging weapons like Longbow or Rifles from other classes. Their damage has been nerfed from the glory days and some of their skills are abit wonk. 

Like others have mentioned, useful for Zerging WvW, but kinda pointless everywhere else.

[Lanz.7312]

I think the 1 is the only real problem with hammer. It's too slow both in terms of projectile speed and activation speed. I think it would benefit from shooting more projectiles, or hitting multiple times, or something similar. I wonder if it would work better as a sort of chain-lightning style attack that boomerang's back, a bit like Mesmer GS's 2. 

I'm super skeptical Anet would ever do anything about it though. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Lanz.7312

[Zeph.5927]

It’s the only ranged option Revenants have outside of Renegade. And it’s extremely weak on top of that. So basically, if you want to have any kind of viable ranged option in PvE, you are FORCED to play Shortbow Renegade. It’s an absolute kitten design and Anet needs to add another ranged option for Revenants outside of Renegade or at least buff hammer in PvE to make it viable.

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Zeph.5927 said:

It’s the only ranged option Revenants have outside of Renegade. And it’s extremely weak on top of that. So basically, if you want to have any kind of viable ranged option in PvE, you are FORCED to play Shortbow Renegade. It’s an absolute kitten design and Anet needs to add another ranged option for Revenants outside of Renegade or at least buff hammer in PvE to make it viable.

That's a bunch of hyperbole. Vindicator Hammer is far from being weak, obviously co-efficients could use a bit of an increase but purpose wise? It's got it's place. Arguably, Hammer is literally closing on GS damage with different ways of applying it.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Zeph.5927]

45 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

That's a bunch of hyperbole. Vindicator Hammer is far from being weak, obviously co-efficients could use a bit of an increase but purpose wise? It's got it's place. Arguably, Hammer is literally the same damage as GS.

It’s still an absolutely lackluster ranged option no matter what (and the ONLY option). And what about core revenant and herald?

No matter how Anet apologists try to spin it, Revenants got screwed in the range department outside of Renegade.

[Shao.7236]

7 minutes ago, Zeph.5927 said:

It’s still an absolutely lackluster ranged option no matter what (and the ONLY option). And what about core revenant and herald?

No matter how Anet apologists try to spin it, Revenants got screwed in the range department outside of Renegade.

Piercing 100% projectile finisher AA along the strongest core weapon skills. Condition will always triumph power no matter how you try to spin it.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Infinity.2876]

I'm hoping for a cc based elite spec for the the 3rd expac so hammer will have some relavence

Otherwise......

Its the only ranged weapon for Herald so they kind of force you to use it regardless of function of you need to go ranged.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Infinity.2876

[Tescao.3042]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAkeJldQIMHKi1QSsHCi9RgsASgj/yWaD-zZoOiImAKdA

It is very difficult to play, all the stances and weapons intertwined in long combinations. Harder probably only Ventari. The rune helps to abandon the staff. Health for self despair. It will probably work only with core rev(Thanks to the Ancient Echo), but I am glad that hammer has the possibility of being used in the condi version. Here the hammer has more potential for defense. Leeching bolts and an additional opportunity for a dark aura. 

But need to train for laying fields VH+ IR + Mace2 + Mace3 + hammer 2 + Hammer 3 + Swap for Mallyx and torment transfer and etc(insert axe 5 according to the situation in the entire length of this combination)... Slow from Axe4 + FE, VH is like a dark aura. Can be overclocked to 20+ stacks of torment in pvp. EtD + Mallyx Leap + Hammer 3 or Hammer 5, Hammer 4 + Mace 3 and etc... Constant resolution, almost constant dark aura.

P. S. Thank you Shao for the experiments with the Hammer, you inspired me to find interesting things for myself. 

The staff instead of the hammer is a safer version, but the hammer reveals more combinations, more elegantly.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Tescao.3042