RNG: Guess I put this in the wrong spot so I will move it here.

[Ultramex.1506]

17 minutes ago, Friday.7864 said:

A bundle of 25 black lion keys was legit the worst purchase I ever made in GW2.
Haven't bought any since 🙂

They need a pity system or something so people don't end up feeling completely cheated.

Isnt Black lion statuette THE pity system?

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, Dante.1508 said:

Didn't they add laws where game companies had to show what the percentage drops are in Microtrans chests... I believe they did.

https://screenrant.com/lootbox-gambling-microtransactions-illegal-japan-china-belgium-netherlands/

Yes, they did, but still in not enough countries. US keeps denying reality, EU as a whole is veeery slow to move, UK is in the middle of deliberations that got likely stopped/delayed by brexit/pandemic combo. And everywhere there's a lot of money moving around to keep that process stalled as long as possible.

[Danikat.8537]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, they did, but still in not enough countries. US keeps denying reality, EU as a whole is veeery slow to move, UK is in the middle of deliberations that got likely stopped/delayed by brexit/pandemic combo. And everywhere there's a lot of money moving around to keep that process stalled as long as possible.

As far as I've heard the UK's review of gambling hasn't been affected by brexit, but the pandemic may have been an issue. Mostly though it's just a big piece of work which they're taking their time on. It's not just looking at loot boxes but all types of gambling and all the laws covering it (there's a lot, if you ever want to waste an afternoon try finding out if you could run a lottery in the UK). The latest news I can find is that they're expecting to publish a white paper next month, but then it has to go through parliament before the law is actually changed.

[Randulf.7614]

Every loot box key bought improves the metrics saying they should continue down this path. This discussion has been done to death, so in lieu of intervention, the only way to force change is to stop buying them. When people post saying they bought 100 keys and didn’t get a skin, that’s a big green light for the company to keep things as they are. 

Loot boxes waste money and rarely ever give back anything of note. That will not change whilst they exist because companies don’t want you to be rewarded, they just want your money.

Asking for change will not trigger change on this one. 

[Randulf.7614]

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

As far as I've heard the UK's review of gambling hasn't been affected by brexit, but the pandemic may have been an issue. Mostly though it's just a big piece of work which they're taking their time on. It's not just looking at loot boxes but all types of gambling and all the laws covering it (there's a lot, if you ever want to waste an afternoon try finding out if you could run a lottery in the UK). The latest news I can find is that they're expecting to publish a white paper next month, but then it has to go through parliament before the law is actually changed.

My understanding is that will only affect loot boxes with mystery results, not ones where you can preview the contents. I expect black lion chests sadly to be unaffected. As much as I hate our gvt, If applaud them if they actually got this right tho

[Danikat.8537]

29 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

My understanding is that will only affect loot boxes with mystery results, not ones where you can preview the contents. I expect black lion chests sadly to be unaffected. As much as I hate our gvt, If applaud them if they actually got this right tho

That's a shame, I was hoping for more on that front too. I wouldn't expect black lion chests/keys to be banned, because even though I never buy them I don't think they're that bad as loot boxes go, but I was hoping for some changes, at least a requirement to publish the odds of getting specific items.

I know the Wiki has a drop-rate research page, but that's estimated based on players recording their drops, the real numbers are likely to be slightly different.

(To be honest the main thing I'm hoping for is stricter regulations on TV advertising for online casinos because I'm sick of seeing those adverts so much. The casinos themselves are easy enough to ignore, but the adverts seem to be everywhere and very obnoxious.)

[Dante.1508]

5 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Every loot box key bought improves the metrics saying they should continue down this path. This discussion has been done to death, so in lieu of intervention, the only way to force change is to stop buying them. When people post saying they bought 100 keys and didn’t get a skin, that’s a big green light for the company to keep things as they are. 

Loot boxes waste money and rarely ever give back anything of note. That will not change whilst they exist because companies don’t want you to be rewarded, they just want your money.

Asking for change will not trigger change on this one. 

To be honest i buy keys, not because i expect super excellent awesome stuff but because it gives me nice stuff either way, and more importantly statuettes which i can use irregularly to get nice stuff.. or even the odd consumables..

buying the odd 5 or even 25 with no expectations is the way to go..  Its like all gambling go in expecting to lose and if you win excellent.. but no black lion chest really gives you nothing.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Super Hayes.6890]

The system is almost where it should be. You can already get BL keys by just playing the game and converting gold. Paying real world currency is a personal choice that should remain in place. The only change that still needs to happen is that EVERTHING in the boxes should be available for direct purchase in the store. These boxes are almost completely optional for acquiring stuff you want. They should be completely optional. The rng exclusive items are the only real issue left and they are few.

[Astralporing.1957]

20 minutes ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

The system is almost where it should be. You can already get BL keys by just playing the game and converting gold. Paying real world currency is a personal choice that should remain in place.

It's not having the choice that is the issue here. The issue is that lootboxes (and similar mechanics) are just plain online gambling. Distancing real world money by a step, or making rewards not be monetary is just a smokescreen that is supposed to make it less noticeable. As such, it should be treated accordingly.

Notice, that (contrary to claims lootbox lobbyists often make) this does not mean banning it - gambling is something any conscious adult can willingly engage in. It just mean making it subject to the same regulations all other forms of it (online or not) are under.

[Tiamat.8254]

In gambling, the house always wins. Don't like it? Don't do it. Simple. 

[Natedog.7549]

The game is rated for 13+ year olds right? Has gambling mechanics in the cash shop. Ecto gambling skrit. A casino in PoF. 

Didn't pokemon red get rated higher for a casino with no way to spend real money on. Lol

[Rogue.8235]

Just wanted to throw this out there.

 

Concerning US legislation of loot boxes, the legislation would also cover fantasy sports.  That is a MASSIVE lobbyist, so expect changes (if any) to be extremely slow. 

Other than not buying keys (which you should do if advocating against loot boxes), pressure local representation as well.  

 

I noticed this overlap when skimming through the federal registry concerning gambling.  Cross-referenced with some IBISWorld reports to see movement of market share and money "paying special attention to "operational" and "administrative" expenses).

 

[Stajan.4581]

Make the MAX RNG % that you can obtain 50% for all loot boxes. Give a base rating 10% the other 40% would come from maxed out MF and boosters. That is fair you basically get a 50/50 chance to get something from an loot box (any loot box this includes BLC)

 

Lets look at the BLC: You get three items from it, these three items are always common items. that is great (most of them are useless once you have some items) Now if you open 1 box and you and a 50/50 chance of getting one of the uncommon, rares or super rare items. This basically breaks down to a 33% chance which is still ok. Now on the table of the Uncommon, Rare, Super Rare you have x items a random number to pick what you get is fine here.  This would 1 allow players better chances at the items they are looking to try and get 2 May increase purchases as players seek out to get what they want (putting them in the gem store to be bought should also be done) 3 it allows players to find that thrill of opening a box and get the drop or the item they have been trying to get for some time.  

 

I get what everyone is saying about gambling I am fine with gambling as it is a thrill to get something for as little as you can and everyone loves that feeling even for a short time.

 

 

[Super Hayes.6890]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's not having the choice that is the issue here. The issue is that lootboxes (and similar mechanics) are just plain online gambling. Distancing real world money by a step, or making rewards not be monetary is just a smokescreen that is supposed to make it less noticeable. As such, it should be treated accordingly.

Notice, that (contrary to claims lootbox lobbyists often make) this does not mean banning it - gambling is something any conscious adult can willingly engage in. It just mean making it subject to the same regulations all other forms of it (online or not) are under.

Honestly I just want the items that are black lion key only to also be gem store purchases. I've missed some that I would have paid for. I only farm keys in game. I mean mystery toys exist and that is a bigger issue frankly than a loot box that doesn't require cash to obtain.

[Friday.7864]

12 hours ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

Isnt Black lion statuette THE pity system?

More like a source of depression if you spent actual money to buy keys.

[Super Hayes.6890]

Just now, Friday.7864 said:

More like a source of depression if you spent actual money to buy keys.

Ah, the long road. We are instant gratification types. Are we really surprised businesses capitalize on this? Several have said it above, speak with your wallets and companies will listen. Give a perfect argument on a forum and.... well, here we are 😬

[Ashen.2907]

I believe that:

1) Gambling should not be promoted to children.

2) Adults should be allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to gamble.

[Dante.1508]

12 hours ago, Friday.7864 said:

More like a source of depression if you spent actual money to buy keys.

No statuettes gets you items later that were closed off to only Black Lion Chest acquisition.. So if you wanted that item that's locked behind chests wait it out and use the statuettes later..

[Abnaxos.4305]

12 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

2) Adults should be allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to gamble.

 

OK, but people shouldn't be driven to gamble using shady methods. The game gives us about 5x as many chests as keys. It does give us some keys to bait us into buying the keys for the 100 other chests we got. It's no accident that we receive so many chests but so little keys, it's very intentional, predatory. The game doesn't just give us the option to gamble, it tries to drive us to.

 

If you have enough self control to destroy any BLC unless you have a key for it, that's great, so do I. It's about those who don't, and it's not their fault that they don't. The game targets them specifically and actively exploits their weakness, possibly with severe consequences for them.

 

If the game isn't a safe space for susceptible people, then it should be labelled accordingly. I hope legislation catches up soon in this area. I'm sure, if given the choice between labelling GW2 as "18+ contains gambling" or removing the loot boxes, they'd rather remove the loot boxes. Better: don't wait for legislation, just remove them because it's decent to do so.

[kharmin.7683]

10 minutes ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

 

 The game targets them specifically and actively exploits their weakness, possibly with severe consequences for them.

 

 

Show me where the game specifically does this. 

Nothing in the BLC is mandatory or required to complete any content in GW2.  Players can play the game and complete all content without needing a single thing from the BLC.  It's all optional. 

Now, if BLC items were necessary to complete content, then you might have a more valid point.

[Abnaxos.4305]

6 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Show me where the game specifically does this. 

Nothing in the BLC is mandatory or required to complete any content in GW2.  Players can play the game and complete all content without needing a single thing from the BLC.  It's all optional. 

Now, if BLC items were necessary to complete content, then you might have a more valid point.

Addiction has nothing to do with necessity. If this doesn't scratch an itch for you, you're not the target, as simple as that.

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

Addiction has nothing to do with necessity. If this doesn't scratch an itch for you, you're not the target, as simple as that.

Perhaps, but I don't see where GW2 specifically exploits this.  It's not like they're advertising loot boxes with the overt intent to target an addiction.

[Gibson.4036]

4 hours ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

 

If you have enough self control to destroy any BLC unless you have a key for it, that's great, so do I.

BLC currently go for 86c on the TP. If you dump them in a bank slot whenever you visit your lounge of choice you can sell a complete stack for a little over two gold. Or just sell them out as you get them, and over time you'll have earned that.

It's not much, but a little better return than destroying them.

4 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Show me where the game specifically does this. 

Nothing in the BLC is mandatory or required to complete any content in GW2.  Players can play the game and complete all content without needing a single thing from the BLC.  It's all optional. 

Now, if BLC items were necessary to complete content, then you might have a more valid point.

All right, but @Abnaxos.4305does have a point that they specifically drop them in order to try and overcome people's resistance. There is a difference between "Hey, we have these sweet loot boxes in the store" and "Hey, I put these sweet loot boxes in your inventory, wouldn't you like to buy some keys to open them?"

And then there's "I put ten of these sweet loot boxes in your inventory, and oh, why don't you use this free key to open one. See if you like it. If it feels good. I'll be here waiting with more keys any time you'd like..."

[Abnaxos.4305]

@Gibson.4036 basically covered my response, thanks. 🙂

So, who's the target? Certainly not the people who just shrug and throw the boxes away (that's probably the majority of players). The target are those who might have a hard time to resist and the game further weakens their resistance: it throws more boxes into the inventory than keys, it lowers the barrier adding a free key from time to time and it constantly reminds the player that these things exist by keeping this up.

It won't work with those who just shrug. It works with those who are already weak.

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Abnaxos.4305 said:

 

OK, but people shouldn't be driven to gamble using shady methods. The game gives us about 5x as many chests as keys. It does give us some keys to bait us into buying the keys for the 100 other chests we got. It's no accident that we receive so many chests but so little keys, it's very intentional, predatory. The game doesn't just give us the option to gamble, it tries to drive us to.

 

If you have enough self control to destroy any BLC unless you have a key for it, that's great, so do I. It's about those who don't, and it's not their fault that they don't. The game targets them specifically and actively exploits their weakness, possibly with severe consequences for them.

 

If the game isn't a safe space for susceptible people, then it should be labelled accordingly. I hope legislation catches up soon in this area. I'm sure, if given the choice between labelling GW2 as "18+ contains gambling" or removing the loot boxes, they'd rather remove the loot boxes. Better: don't wait for legislation, just remove them because it's decent to do so.

Adults should be allowed to decide for themselves, period. Imposing your will on strangers by prohibiting them from doing something because you, or someone else, dont like that thing is as far from, "decent," as you can get.

I dont like BLK/chests but I am not going to advocate having men and women with guns (government) intervene to prevent others who do from partaking.

I try to avoid eating too many sweets, or carbobydrates in general, but I am not going to advocate for the intervention of armed men to prevent others from eating a slice of bread  because someone out there overeats.

Again, yes we should avoid promoting gambling to children, but the instant you decide that you are going to take self determination away from adults you (in the general sense, not you personally) are the much bigger problem.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Ashen.2907