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[Detailed Rework] Banner Skills (with Quickness Traited)


Jzaku.9765

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VISUAL GUIDE: LINK <=== PLEASE LOOK AT THIS FIRST

We know what the actual Banner changes are at this point, and it's quite possibly the most boring, straightforward, and uninteractive version of it we could have imagined. 
These changes are primarily made to provide utility to core Warrior's incredibly lacking toolkit. I don't actually expect anyone to be bringing a full suite of banners on their utility skills (though that's still possible to run a Boon support Warrior) with these changes, but you'll find it VERY hard to fit yourself into modern team compositions.
Instead, look at these banners as individual skills you would think about slotting in as the Encounter demands.

THE BANNERS NO LONGER PULSE ANYTHING. Each banner instead creates a different Combo Field on placing it - then flips over to a skill with it's own unique CD while the Warrior is within it's radius. This skill, as a general rule, only affects allies in some manner as the Warrior inspires them with his presence. The banners retain the ability to "pick them up" to destroy the banner, and reduce it's cooldown in the process.

  1. Banner of Strength:
    On drop => Create a Fire Field for 5s
    Flip Skill => Grants Might and Resistance to allies.
    Simple and straightforward, Strength is the Might Banner. The duration on Resistance is intentionally low as you shouldn't be able to upkeep such a powerful boon. Instead, the intention is to use it reactively as you need it.
     
  2. Banner of Discipline:
    On drop => Create a Lightning Field for 5s
    Flip Skill =>  Grants Fury and Stability to allies.
    Warrior's response to Guardian's many party Stability options. Again, the Fury duration is high enough and the Stability duration low enough that you should be using this right when you actually need Stability, since it's instant cast. 
     
  3. Banner of Defense: 
    On drop => Create a Light Field for 5s
    Flip Skill => Grant Protection and Aegis to allies.
    The defensive Barrier provides a Light field for condi cleanse if you combo off it. The same reasons as above apply for the Aegis duration here. 
     
  4. Banner of Tactics:
    On drop => Create a Smoke Field for 5s
    Flip Skill => Grant Barrier to allies. Reveal nearby foes.
    The only Banner to break the rule that they only affect allies - because the Warrior is tactical enough to break the mould! Same reason why it grants a smoke field, it's possibly the field with the most tactical uses. Don't forget that fields do nothing unless otherwise stated, so don't conflate this with Thief's smoke fields that all say they blind you passively. This doesn't.  
     
  5. Banner of Succor: New healing skill Banner!
    On drop => Create a Water Field for 5s
    Flip Skill => Heal Allies. Grant allies Regeneration.
    The healing Banner we all wanted. This, along with Barrier on Tactics, is intended to provide support options to a Heal Warrior elite spec in the future - no, Shout Heal Warrior will never be good in PVE. It's also an additional slot you can take a Banner in, for the Banner Quickness trait, Doubled Standards.
     
  6. Banner of War:
    On drop => Does all the res + finish effects we're familiar with, granting Barrier to revived allies.
    Flip Skill => Grants superspeed to allies. 
    Warbanner is frankly an incredible skill so it didn't need much changes. The boons on it seemed pretty redundant with all the other changes and Warrior's core in general, so I made it have a unique niche of either getting a revived ally out of dodge, or moving your allies into position to rout the enemy. 
     

Finally, the quickness Banner trait is obviously Doubled Standards. There's a serious problem of the Tactics traitline where all the traits are competing with each other so Warrior can never have the full support package other classes have, but let's call that a problem for a future Support Warrior Elite Specialization to address (for now, untill I rework that anyway). 

  1. Doubled Standards - Boons provided by your Banners have 50% increased durations. Apply 3s of Quickness when using a Banner flip skill.
    Note that this is deliberately worded to not be affects by the prior 50% increase. If you've been paying attention, some of the boons on the Banners have durations that are intentionally hard to upkeep without this trait or a ton of boon duration. A simple, straightforward implementation of "Banner Quickness" that doesn't require you to juggle much. 
Edited by Jzaku.9765
added clarifications to skill implementation
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You lost me at the Warrior needing to be in the radius of the banner. I don't think utilizing banners as a placeable object in-world is a good idea, as we've already had years of that functionality and it would ultimately just be the same. I feel they should be attached on the warrior like an aura, and then have a flip skill that functions different.

 

On top of that, some of the recommended changes you've provided are extremely over-powered. Pulsing group-wide stability, resistance, and both protection and aegis? while I would like more stability options, it's an insane boon to any team comp, no matter what, and to have on top of that a ridiculous amount of damage reduction in the form of healing, protection, aegis, and resistance? This would be meta immediately in loads of team comps due to its simplicity. Place down banner, become un-killable due to constantly pulsing boons.

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Just now, Kalthea.4326 said:

You lost me at the Warrior needing to be in the radius of the banner. I don't think utilizing banners as a placeable object in-world is a good idea, as we've already had years of that functionality and it would ultimately just be the same. I feel they should be attached on the warrior like an aura, and then have a flip skill that functions different.

 

On top of that, some of the recommended changes you've provided are extremely over-powered. Pulsing group-wide stability, resistance, and both protection and aegis? while I would like more stability options, it's an insane boon to any team comp, no matter what, and to have on top of that a ridiculous amount of damage reduction in the form of healing, protection, aegis, and resistance? This would be meta immediately in loads of team comps due to its simplicity. Place down banner, become un-killable due to constantly pulsing boons.

Please look at the visual guide. They do not pulse. It is an active effect you activate with it's own CD. Stability and Aegis in fact have higher CDs than the other skills. 

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5 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Please look at the visual guide. They do not pulse. It is an active effect you activate with it's own CD. Stability and Aegis in fact have higher CDs than the other skills. 

Ah, apologies.

Even so, that seems to function closer to facets than anything, which is good. And while I would say producing fields would be nice, I don't see much of a reason for a warrior to even produce so many varieties of them when the boons provided by those banners are already so strong. Not to mention placing the banners down just to require you to be in their field for the other effect to activate is a bit strange. Feels like shouts with extra steps.

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Just now, Kalthea.4326 said:

Ah, apologies.

Even so, that seems to function closer to facets than anything, which is good. And while I would say producing fields would be nice, I don't see much of a reason for a warrior to even produce so many varieties of them when the boons provided by those banners are already so strong. Not to mention placing the banners down just to require you to be in their field for the other effect to activate is a bit strange. Feels like shouts with extra steps.

You are right in that it's a shout with extra steps like managing position in exchange for extra functionality. That's the concept - to make a strong skill that you have to think about using. Remember that you only have so many utility slots, and Warrior as a class has been designed to tax their utility slots for years because of Banners already. As an example of this, think about how Rage skills now extend Berserker State. 

Edited by Jzaku.9765
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10 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

You are right in that it's a shout with extra steps like managing position in exchange for extra functionality. That's the concept - to make a strong skill that you have to think about using. Remember that you only have so many utility slots, and Warrior as a class has been designed to tax their utility slots for years because of Banners already. As an example of this, think about how Rage skills now extend Berserker State. 

I understand that, but why would you continue to push that design philosophy? Isn't that something that we don't want to happen? And even if that were the case, the boons provided with these suggested banner changes are very strong. And don't get me wrong, I would love if I could have a huge support system like this, but it would be way too strong I feel.

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The concept is what is important - I'm not a dev. I don't have access to player statistics. I can't make pvp/wvw splits, mostly because that would require a lot of fine tuning over a LOT of time.

All I have is my personal experience and knowledge about team compositions, and what sees play currently in the game. I can confidently tell you that a medium-DPS, giga boonlord build will not see any play at all despite being objectively extremely strong - because one has already been in the game since HOT in Herald, and an even stronger one with Quickness has been in the game since EOD with Arcane Boon Catalyst. 

This is because team compositions in 2022 GW2 offload the entire support role into your fulltime Healer per subgroup for role compression. This is why Firebrand and Mechanist are the current Kings of PVE, they have a full support build capable of doing all this, so that the non-healer players don't have to. They are able to provide long durations of Aegis and Stability, in multiple ways. 

As such a boon Warrior taking ALL these banners, without access to a healer build, will fall into the same category as the aforementioned giga-boonlord Herald and Catalyst, and be objectively strong but literally never used. Instead, it's far more likely that Warrior that largely specs for DPS and takes 2-3 banners just to provide quickness, and stability when needed as the encounter demands. This is no different than how Quickbrand plays right now. If you've been updated on recent events, you'll know that there is close to no way Firebrand is being nerfed any time soon.

Hope this helps you understand the thought process. 

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The issue with this is that any support that's this conditional is useless as every kind of support either pulses from the character, originates in a burst from the character or from the point of impact where the skill is aimed.

Having banners in this hybrid format automatically makes Warriors unviable as support since the competition is so much more viable.

Having them be combo fields as well just makes it unique in nature. Thus makes them able to provide something unique and if they can provide something unique then they'll never be balanced to all the others since if they are and take these things then they're going to be unbalanced.

Edited by Malus.2184
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Hmm why not made banners an aktive gameplay style. Instead of you drop them to the ground and let them be there for 50% of the game. Why not let them be extra skills that you need to press all idk 40 seks to made sure they still aoe proc the Extra boons around yourself to your enemys. This would made the whole skill less clunky and more interactive. The only Bad thing behind this mechanic would be you still loose 2 Utility skills just for use banners just to press a Button all 40 seconds to Support your Team xd

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1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said:

Hmm why not made banners an aktive gameplay style. Instead of you drop them to the ground and let them be there for 50% of the game. Why not let them be extra skills that you need to press all idk 40 seks to made sure they still aoe proc the Extra boons around yourself to your enemys. This would made the whole skill less clunky and more interactive. The only Bad thing behind this mechanic would be you still loose 2 Utility skills just for use banners just to press a Button all 40 seconds to Support your Team xd

This would still be inefficient if the Warrior is supposed to be a support.

I divide support into two categories.

Support: Does something to help the rest of the group that pulses from them as either a persistent pulse or as a rally support. that gives their support for the full duration instantly Targeted AoE support abilities are also of the rally kind. Rally abilities have long or long-ish CDs once their charges are expended.

Hybrid Support: Targeted AoE abilities that only give an effecct while the AoE affects someone. Has a short cooldown to make them viable.

Most support will have a mix of those two. Hybrid support solely has the latter.

Banners as they are and as people suggest they should be have the worst of both worlds. They're hybrid support abilities with long CDs. And that makes them unviable.

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I prefer my solution.

Remove the whole planting banner gameplay. (The profession is named "warrior", not "peon")

Banners are now kits with 10s CD.

  1. Banner AA: stab (same for all banner).
  2. Skill#2: Rally (effect vary based on banner. Defense provide protection, Discipline provide fury, Strength provide might, Tactics provide resistance, battle standard provide might/fury/swiftness.). 10s CD
  3. Skill#3: Inspire (same for all banners): Heal allies (same amount as shouts) and grant swiftness. Down allies within radius are healed by 10% (1% in competitive modes). 15s CD
  4. Skill#4: Sprint (same for all banners). 15s CD
  5. Skill#5: Tremor: Daze foes within the radius and leave a field at your feets (vary based on banner. Defense provide a poison field weakening foes every second for 5s, Discipline provide a lightning field dealing damage every second for 5s, Strenght provide a fire field burning foes every seconds for 5s, Tactics provide a light field blinding foes every second for 5s, Battle standard provide a water field that revive allies by 5% every 1/2 seconds for 5 seconds). 25s CD (60s CD for battle standard)
  6. Burst: Radiant presence: Release shockwaves around you dealing damages. Release 1 shockwave by treshold of adrenaline spent. (tic every 1/2s). Berserker: Vented fury: Release a burning shockwave that deal damage and burn foes within the range treshold.

Double standard: This trait now increase concentration by 120. Banner bursts now grant quickness to up to 5 allies within the range treshold.

Simple, effective and in line with the warrior gameplay and philosophy.

Edited by Dadnir.5038
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7 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@Malus.2184 true but well warrior should have a support spec to support allies as every other class. Not this i take any of my dps specs and try to made a half done support build. This would be ways easier to balance out instead of this half/half thing that allready goes around xd

What I mean is that ANet should settle on if they want Warriors to be able to provide support or hybrid support instead of this mismatch that's practically good at nothing.

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Greetings I will add my suggestion as well which would require a new animation to be added to the warrior but would look cool from roleplay standpoint and gameplay mechanic would not require dropping the banner and picking it up anymore making it  similar to other boon utilities but retaining the unique banner visuals.

 

Animation "Wave the banner of: XXXXXX" and if voice acting could be added to scream something inspirational related to the banner would be a nice bonus. Example animation: Skip to: 0:23

 

People whom are better at roleplay and and know guild wars lore could perhaps add Charr, Human, Sylvari, Asura and Norn quotes/voice lines to the banners when being waved. What do you guys think those could be? But some examples that came to my mind:

 

Charr:

Banner of Defense: For the Legions!

Banner of Discipline: One Charr! / Warband to me!

Banner of Strength: Show me your claws!

Banner of Tactics: Legions march! / Fight like Khan-ur!

Battle Standard:

 

Human:

Banner of Defense: For Kryta! / For the Queen!

Banner of Discipline: Stand firm!

Banner of Strength:

Banner of Tactics: Flank them!

Battle Standard:

 

Sylvari:

Banner of Defense: Preserve sacred life! / Protect the Grove!

Banner of Discipline:

Banner of Strength: Draw strenght from Nature!

Banner of Tactics: Ventari guide us!

Battle Standard:

 

Asura:

Banner of Defense: Protect the research! / Preseve Knowledge!

Banner of Discipline:

Banner of Strength: Terminate the ignorant!

Banner of Tactics: Employ your minds!

Battle Standard:

 

Norn:

Banner of Defense:

Banner of Discipline: Venerate the spirits!

Banner of Strength: Time to hunt!

Banner of Tactics: Prepare a trap for them! / Spirits guide us!

Battle Standard:

 

What do you guys think? Would this be a bad idea and the cooldowns and boons could be adjusted accordingly. The cast speed of the animation / banner wave could range from 0.5 to 1.25. Elite Banner is a question mark if the stomping and revival potential is to be kept however guess it could be still a throw animation or a longer wave animation.

Edited by Ban Daur.4831
New voice lines
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51 minutes ago, Ban Daur.4831 said:

Greetings I will add my suggestion as well which would require a new animation to be added to the warrior but would look cool from roleplay standpoint and gameplay mechanic would not require dropping the banner and picking it up anymore making it  similar to other boon utilities but retaining the unique banner visuals.

 

Animation "Wave the banner of: XXXXXX" and if voice acting could be added to scream something inspirational related to the banner would be a nice bonus. Example animation: Skip to: 0:23

 

People whom are better at roleplay and and know guild wars lore could perhaps add Charr, Human, Sylvari, Asura and Norn quotes/voice lines to the banners when being waved. What do you guys think those could be? But some examples that came to my mind:

 

Charr:

Banner of Defense: For the Legions!

Banner of Discipline: One Charr! / Warband to me!

Banner of Strength: Show me your claws!

Banner of Tactics: Legions march! / Fight like Khan-ur!

Battle Standard:

 

Human:

Banner of Defense: For Kryta! / For the Queen!

Banner of Discipline: Stand firm!

Banner of Strength:

Banner of Tactics: Flank them!

Battle Standard:

 

Sylvari:

Banner of Defense: Preserve sacred life! / Protect the Grove!

Banner of Discipline:

Banner of Strength: Draw strenght from Nature!

Banner of Tactics: Ventari guide us!

Battle Standard:

 

Asura:

Banner of Defense: Protect the research! / Preseve Knowledge!

Banner of Discipline:

Banner of Strength: Terminate the ignorant!

Banner of Tactics: Employ your minds!

Battle Standard:

 

Norn:

Banner of Defense:

Banner of Discipline: Venerate the spirits!

Banner of Strength: Time to hunt!

Banner of Tactics: Prepare a trap for them! / Spirits guide us!

Battle Standard:

 

What do you guys think? Would this be a bad idea and the cooldowns and boons could be adjusted accordingly. The cast speed of the animation / banner wave could range from 0.5 to 1.25. Elite Banner is a question mark if the stomping and revival potential is to be kept however guess it could be still a throw animation or a longer wave animation.

This is pretty much what I think a Warrior Support elite spec should look like, so I'd save that concept for that instead!

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On 6/28/2022 at 6:37 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I prefer my solution.

Remove the whole planting banner gameplay. (The profession is named "warrior", not "peon")

Banners are now kits with 10s CD.

  1. Banner AA: stab (same for all banner).
  2. Skill#2: Rally (effect vary based on banner. Defense provide protection, Discipline provide fury, Strength provide might, Tactics provide resistance, battle standard provide might/fury/swiftness.). 10s CD
  3. Skill#3: Inspire (same for all banners): Heal allies (same amount as shouts) and grant swiftness. Down allies within radius are healed by 10% (1% in competitive modes). 15s CD
  4. Skill#4: Sprint (same for all banners). 15s CD
  5. Skill#5: Tremor: Daze foes within the radius and leave a field at your feets (vary based on banner. Defense provide a poison field weakening foes every second for 5s, Discipline provide a lightning field dealing damage every second for 5s, Strenght provide a fire field burning foes every seconds for 5s, Tactics provide a light field blinding foes every second for 5s, Battle standard provide a water field that revive allies by 5% every 1/2 seconds for 5 seconds). 25s CD (60s CD for battle standard)
  6. Burst: Radiant presence: Release shockwaves around you dealing damages. Release 1 shockwave by treshold of adrenaline spent. (tic every 1/2s). Berserker: Vented fury: Release a burning shockwave that deal damage and burn foes within the range treshold.

Double standard: This trait now increase concentration by 120. Banner bursts now grant quickness to up to 5 allies within the range treshold.

Simple, effective and in line with the warrior gameplay and philosophy.

this is a really neat idea, Dadnir.  I don't necessarily like that you'd lose your weapon (and thus most if not all of your DPS) while wielding the kit, and the fact that you could only have one kit active at a time (thus limiting what boons you're dishing out at any one time) could also be problematic.

 

It actually might work better if a banner(s) functioned more like a Rev legend swap; it replaces your UTILITY skills rather than your weapon skills.

 

Good food for thought.  Thanks for the ideas!

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38 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

this is a really neat idea, Dadnir.  I don't necessarily like that you'd lose your weapon (and thus most if not all of your DPS) while wielding the kit, and the fact that you could only have one kit active at a time (thus limiting what boons you're dishing out at any one time) could also be problematic.

This is just an excuse of a drawback for the support granted. Also, it's like kits, you can just take the banner use skill#2/burst and then change back to your weapon skillset/another banner skillset. You're just limited on how often you can take a specific banner kit.

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On 6/28/2022 at 7:37 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I prefer my solution.

Remove the whole planting banner gameplay. (The profession is named "warrior", not "peon")

Banners are now kits with 10s CD.

  1. Banner AA: stab (same for all banner).
  2. Skill#2: Rally (effect vary based on banner. Defense provide protection, Discipline provide fury, Strength provide might, Tactics provide resistance, battle standard provide might/fury/swiftness.). 10s CD
  3. Skill#3: Inspire (same for all banners): Heal allies (same amount as shouts) and grant swiftness. Down allies within radius are healed by 10% (1% in competitive modes). 15s CD
  4. Skill#4: Sprint (same for all banners). 15s CD
  5. Skill#5: Tremor: Daze foes within the radius and leave a field at your feets (vary based on banner. Defense provide a poison field weakening foes every second for 5s, Discipline provide a lightning field dealing damage every second for 5s, Strenght provide a fire field burning foes every seconds for 5s, Tactics provide a light field blinding foes every second for 5s, Battle standard provide a water field that revive allies by 5% every 1/2 seconds for 5 seconds). 25s CD (60s CD for battle standard)
  6. Burst: Radiant presence: Release shockwaves around you dealing damages. Release 1 shockwave by treshold of adrenaline spent. (tic every 1/2s). Berserker: Vented fury: Release a burning shockwave that deal damage and burn foes within the range treshold.

Double standard: This trait now increase concentration by 120. Banner bursts now grant quickness to up to 5 allies within the range treshold.

Simple, effective and in line with the warrior gameplay and philosophy.

Yup. Banner kits. I've posted the same idea on another thread. My only differences are that each banner would focus on its respective support function as well as inflict specific CCs as secondary functions. Each banner kit has different skills. Each banner grants stability on the switch. There is no cool-down on switching out these banner kits. Example:

Banner of Strength: Focuses on might and fear

Banner of Defense: Resistance, protection and knock-back

Banner of Discipline: fury, swiftness, quickness and daze

Banner of Tactics: regeneration, cripple and knockdown

Battle Standard: a combination of the other banners' boons and a launch as its CC!

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1 minute ago, Lighter.5631 said:

they could've made so many things for banner.

but they decided this LOL

kits, facets, turrets anything.

but they decided this is best for warrior.

I mean, it’s a consistent balance direction. They’ve been nerfing warrior damage for like 5 years now, and what does less damage than having no skills? The vision has been realized. Warrior is now fully balanced. 

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@Jzaku.9765 I got litterly the same idea today. How ever there should not be this many boons for banners since it would made the class itself too strong. Also letz split the banners in 2 cathegories. Offensive banners (strength/disciplin) and defensive banners (tactics/defence).

 

Offensive Banners:

The flip skill of the offensive banners would gain quickness plus an special boon for each Banner. 

 

Banner of strength: might/quickness

Disciplin: fury/quickness

 

Defensive Banners:

The flip skill of defensive banners would gain vigor plus a special boon or effect for each Banner.

 

Banner of Defence: protection/ vigor

Banner of Tactics: x secs of regeneration/ vigor

 

The boons should at least be good enough to be able to get 100% ubtime on them (so you could use the flip skill all x secs to gain the boons for x secs)  with not too mutch loss of dps when you use the banner traitline. Of course the traitline do not only made the boons more effective to yourself but also to your teammates. 

 

You need to be in the banner radius. You are able to replace the  banners on another place .(they will not take your weap Set off but if you not replace them fast enough (maybe 15 secs) they will go on full cd/ they get no cast time for pick em up or set em on the ground). All banners get 60 seconds CD.

 

In this case they would only Provide 2 good boons on a like perma ubtime. Also in this way we would hold up the window for maybe a new Support oriented e-spec.

 

EDIT: maybe set the banner traitline on the place of martial cadence. So it would work like this:

Double standarts use = might/fury/quickness or protecton/regeneration/vigor

Vigorus Shouts use = good heal/might/fury

 

 

For warr itself: to made the whole warrior better in terms of dps i would like to see destruction of the empowered reworked so it gain ya more precision.

 

Edited by Pati.2438
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