Would you rather Anet focus on making professions Fun and unique or Balanced and homogeneous?

[eXruina.4956]

is this poll something they want to spin a narrative on, that they're not introducing balance because it won't be "fun"? with their awesome job censoring the leaks i can't say i'm sure anymore.

 

also shouldn't fun and balance go hand in hand shouldn't they be aiming for a balance between both,.then again they're not aiming for either, they apparently think us too dumb to tell the difference.

[The Boz.2038]

Please, respected "balance is everything being the same" people, saunter off and educate the poor people that designed StarCraft 2, Dawn of War 2, Homeworld, Supreme Commander, etc. how they have not achieved balance. Share with them your worldview. Teach them how to make actually good, balanced games.

[Aravind.9610]

8 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

However, I don't know whether ANet deliberately crafted build components with that objective in mind, or whether they were just a by-product of overall profession design that were then theory-crafted by the build tinkerers in the community.

From the leaks, they said that making classes easier to play was one of the goals, so more people can focus on boss mechanics and not on their skill bar.

[Einsof.1457]

This is how I imagine in a very high-level way a balance dev workflow would be:

1. Looks at internal metrics/numbers on performance

2. Determines that something is out of whack

3. Propose multiple changes

4. Evaluate changes and how they affect other things

5. Decide on the change

6. Is the change increasing the fun-factor of the player?

If yes, add change. If no, go back to #3. I feel the #6 component question is wholly absent from the workflow. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

False dichotomy.

 

Including this argument:

 

...which completely ignores that there are other ways to balance Skill 1 and Skill 2. Maybe Skill 2 activates in one-fifth the time of Skill 1. They can then both do 1000 damage in the same timeframe, but in different ways, which might have different strengths and weaknesses in terms of how they interact with other mechanics.

 

I think you missed where I said this:

 

"The example isn't limited to just a single parameter...it extends to any arbitrary number of parameters"

 

I'm going to give you another example, and again I'm going to ask the exact same question. Perfectly balance the skills as one would on a scale:

 

Skill 1

Damage : 1000

Cast Time : 3s

3 seconds Immobilization

 

Skill 2

Damage :200

Cast Time : 1s

2 seconds fury

 

The above is a little more complex, But again the point of the exercise is to ask whether there are a set of operations that perfectly balances the two skills as if one could on a scale without just making them do both the same exact thing...and the answer is that there isn't.

 

Damage and cast time are easy concepts to understand why those two things can be lumped together and equated like one could on a scale but what about fury and immobilization? How does one even parametrize them, to place them on a scale where they would be equal? Is 3 seconds of immobilization worth 200 damage? or maybe it’s worth 1000 damage? Maybe it’s worth more than that? How would you know? 

 

Immobilization is useless in PVE for the most part...Fury is very important in PVE...Immobilization is very important for PVP... Fury not so much... thus, these two skills will always be imbalanced with one another, simply because these two environments exists. 

 

Think about other effects like Chilled and Stability...how do you place such mechanics on a scale with damage? Is there some magical duration of chilled that will always equal x damage being done to an opponent? How about stability? Does having some magical duration of stability always equate to dealing x damage to an opponent? 

 

The answer is that, mechanics that aren't obviously simple, will behave with maximal sophistication, and that in most cases the only way to parametrize them, is for them to just "play out" to see what they do. It more or less will be undecidable, and so there will never be an "x damage" that will be equal to some "y" duration of stability where the answer is always the same. This complexity is not a mistake...it's one of the features being alluded to by the "balance of nature," and you mentioned it yourself about how things interact with other mechanics. That complexity is not attained by making things equal it is explicitly a feature of these elements not behaving the same as one another, because if they were, they would be obviously simple.

 

To clarify the statement above obviously simple refers to homogenous behavior. Anyway, I encourage you to just do the exercise of taking complex skills, and trying to perfectly balance them and asking whether you could prove that those things are actually perfectly balanced. will the answers always cancel out and be 0.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Infinity.2876]

I liked it better when:

1: aegis came from guardian only

2: quickness and alacrity came from chrono only

3: stealth came from thief

And so on

 

I don't know if this is relevant

[nthmetal.9652]

Quote

1. Would you rather Anet focus on making professions Fun and unique or Balanced and homogeneous?

Counter-question: Would you want to play a profession, that's unique and fun - but utterly irrelevant and thus has real problems being accepted into any form of organized content? Or would you rather play a profession that's balanced and homgenous, yet ultimately indistiguishable, without any USP?

What is exactly desirable about either of these options?
Why does it even have to be either-or?

And that's not even the core problem. I think Anet did very well in designing some professions. Firebrand is clearly unique, it's fun, relevant and has its own identity. So clearly it can be done for some specs.
Thief, for example, also has its very unique selling point with their application of stealth, though admittedly the overall design does need additional work to make it more desirable for all kinds of content. (Also the game needs a fair mechanic to counter stealth and restealthing, but that's a different issue.)

So creating a profession that is fun, has its unique points, and possibly is even relevant for the meta - it can be done. All these things together, they can be done!

Why can't we have such USPs for ALL professions? What exactly does make warrior unique? That they are tough and dish out hard in melee? .... Isn't it at the moment rather: EITHER they are tough OR they dish out hard? And what exactly is unique about that, I mean Firebrand thanks to their skills are also kitten tough. And when you build for that kind of toughness you probably bring a lot of that to your friends, too! Can warrior do that?
And they can dish out big damage when built for that.
Don't get me started about Berserker either. I mean in which reality were berserkers known for being squishy? All the stories I know are about how those guys are crazy, UNSTOPPABLE killing machines, not -300 toughness burst and keel-over.
When I hear about a playstyle that's about getting in, bursting high damage and getting out, WARRIOR is not what I think of. This kind of nimble assault, high burst damage, in and out sounds like thief or skirmishing ranger to me.

Edited June 29, 2022 by nthmetal.9652

[jaif.3518]

In starcraft, zerg protoss terran are fun, unique, and balanced, and that's an insanely competitive environment. 

 

Why can't i want the same thing in GW2?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

2 hours ago, Aravind.9610 said:

From the leaks, they said that making classes easier to play was one of the goals, so more people can focus on boss mechanics and not on their skill bar.

Nice! Thanks for the fyi.  That's one on the positive side of the scale for ANet.

[eXruina.4956]

20 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Would you rather Anet focus on making professions Fun and unique or Balanced and homogeneous? 

could you elaborate in the case of warrior?

 

how in the khan-ur's name did they make warrior gameplay fun and unique, as well as balanced pray tell?

 

please compare with other classes and cite warrior's fun and uniqueness, as well as balance.

 

let's say. compared to a firebrand. please compare it to a firebrand.

 

i would like to know. please humor and educate a years old blood legion veteran.

Edited June 29, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[eXruina.4956]

1 hour ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I liked it better when:

1: aegis came from guardian only

2: quickness and alacrity came from chrono only

3: stealth came from thief

And so on

 

I don't know if this is relevant

thats not what they're doing, because in their eyes, slapping all boon access on certain classes, not all classes mind you, CERTAIN CLASSES, is FUN UNIQUE AND BALANCED.

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I liked it better when:

1: aegis came from guardian only

2: quickness and alacrity came from chrono only

3: stealth came from thief

And so on

 

I don't know if this is relevant

I also liked that. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[BobbyT.7192]

19 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Totally understandable. I was thinking, if the forum could do it, something like those 1-5 polls would be great:

Fun 1... 2.... 3.... 4.... 5 Balance

Circle the number where'd you'd weight design decisions on the spectrum.

Big ole 0, trying to balance this game as eroded the spvp player based, I would rather everything be overpowered than this false sense trying to keep up balance.

[Vinny.7260]

The original reason I got into this game years ago was the variety of playstyles the game invited. Then there was the original trait system too, which allowed for some fun lil combinations. Then the combo fields/finishers.

 

They've slowly begun to rip that all away.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

The original reason I got into this game years ago was the variety of playstyles the game invited. Then there was the original trait system too, which allowed for some fun lil combinations. Then the combo fields/finishers.

 

They've slowly begun to rip that all away.

 

They've been doing it to pvp for years now. None of their behavior this patch is new.

 

One (of many) examples, is they removed amulet after amulet after amulet in an attempt to balance the game mode because of a few select problem metabuilds...but simultaneously destroyed many off meta builds that weren't a problem. It was like collateral damage, and also turned into a feedback loop in which strong builds no longer had other builds to counter them, which led to the next amulet getting removed...and that process just repeated until finally everyone had no choice but to run the basically the same amulets.

 

The party has just now arrived to PVE. They want to now take the same philosophy and apply it there...homogenize everything. I already spent two comments explaining the issue with that, and it will eventually lead to the balance singularity: All classes will do the same things, and diversity will not exist...it will be artificial, where the only differences between classes will be only in name. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Vinny.7260]

1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

They've been doing it to pvp for years now. None of their behavior this patch is new.

 

They removed amulet after amulet after amulet in an attempt to balance the game mode because of a few select problem metabuilds...but simultaneously destroyed many off meta builds that weren't a problem. It was like collateral damage, and also turned into a feedback loop in which strong builds no longer had other builds to counter them, which led to the next amulet getting removed...and that process just repeated until finally everyone had no choice but to run the basically the same amulets.

 

The party has just now arrived to PVE. They want to now take the same philosophy and apply it there...homogenize everything. I already spent two comments explaining the issue with that, and it will eventually lead to the balance singularity: All classes will do the same things, and diversity will not exist...it will be artificial, where the only differences between classes will be only in name. 

Basically just a game of 'pick your favorite color.' ... And also hope it's the balance team's favorite color too.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

6 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Basically just a game of 'pick your favorite color.' ... And also hope it's the balance team's favorite color too.

 

Yup exactly. So long as they continue this pursuit of perfect balance, this is what that will lead to and it will be the death of this game.

 

Anet is doing a little shake and a little dance to make it "seem" like they are making the classes different, but the issue is that they can't do it without purposefully im-balancing the game and making some classes "better" at doing X then the other...otherwise they are just both doing the same thing. If warrior is able to perma quickness, then so should the mechanist and so should this other class and the other class...extend this out to everything...damage, healing whatever, and all classes are now just providing the same effects, the same damage, the same boons, the same healing...so what is exactly different about any of them other then what the skills and classes are named and what color their spells are.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Infinity.2876 said:

I liked it better when:

1: aegis came from guardian only

2: quickness and alacrity came from chrono only

3: stealth came from thief

And so on

 

I don't know if this is relevant

So you liked it when 20% of any high-end PvE group had to play chronomancer?

[Mesket.5728]

27 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

So long as they continue this pursuit of perfect balance

 

They have to start one yet... so far they only pursuit the perfect unbalance. Homogenous, yes. Balanced? Not in the slightless. Nobody wants classes to do the same. People want classes to have the same impact level, but each one with its own identity and place.

 

Whatever OP was asking is ridiculous. Is a made up statement turned into a biased poll just to force people into his opinion which is fundamentally wrong.

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

Contrary to popular belief "Balanced and Fun" is in fact an option that many games achieve.

"Fun and Unique" does not have to equal unbalanced garbage, and the current completely unbalanced state of the professions is neither fun nor unique.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

On 6/28/2022 at 8:28 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

Would you rather Anet focus on making professions Fun and unique or Balanced and homogeneous? 

They should focus on both as per protocol.
Games should be fun and balanced at the same time, otherwise they'd be boring if one of it is missing.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Revenant used to feel soooo much better to play before all the nerfs to heral/shiro pvp build. Yeah it was extremely strong, but the flow of the class just felt so much better, you felt like you actually had energy and skills available and timing out legend and weapon swaps were a big part of the playstyle. Now its dumbed down and slow and clunky now and there's even less cool ways to build revenant. It lost it's speed, damage, mallyx, corruption, staff, old IO, and it's retribution (the boon). It's just so clunky.

[pallas.8150]

I believe in risk v reward, and that more complex things deserve some sort of benefit for that. Eles with hard rotations, low armor and hp for example should be doing more damage than a profession that is easier.

[Polar.8634]

On 6/28/2022 at 11:25 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

perfect balance is by definition not fun. perfect balance would be everyone plays the exact same thing. 

Everybody would be generally satisfied if his main class(es) had a niche in all content. It's possible to achieve, not by copy pasting traits. Pure dpsers should have around same DPS, difference here achieved by giving them unique utility. Balance range DPS be bit lower tho, range by itself is advantage. Support DPS also around same DPS, but again utility plus different boons. Pure supports - the more utility the lower heals. Actually, i would love to see pure heals with no alac or quickness, so boon-dps classes could cover that. Pure heals could have different mechanics and advantages, we already have those. To take quick/alac from heal, just make to them what already is done to tempest - extremely heavy trade-off between heals and boon 

[Polar.8634]

5 minutes ago, Vladisimissius.2594 said:

around same DPS

Oh, it should not be achieved by giving them op auto attack tho. These days auto attack builds, game devolving. *Cough*riflemech*cough*