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Stealth needs to be built into Steal and its various incarnations


LoreChief.8391

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Hi all, LoreChief here, been playing since BWE2.  I'm a Thief main, have been for every expansion so far.  I know this is nothing special, let's move on though.

 

I want to be as non-sassy as possible when I write this, because I am full of sass right now.  This recent balance patch has left me livid, as I've been enjoying this expansion playing Specter.  I get to support allies, give them barrier, heal them, put conditions on enemies, and use a pretty neat Stealth Scepter skill to allow me to do some mediocre damage (the damage is low, but its really fun to stealth as a support character!).  I can't do that as of today though.  I'm not particularly sure what I can do on this class any more because of the nerfs to stealth.

 

If you wanted to nerf the perma-stealthers why not just do something like change Black Powder to a dark field instead of Smoke?  Spamming SB skills into your own smoke field was always a very janky way to play this class in the first place, and you never really accomplished much either.  Instead what we now have is a 'Shadow Arts' traitline that gives you literally no way to get into stealth.  Those of us playing Specter now have to give up our very localized utility in order to take high-cooldown stealth skills like Blinding Powder to occasionally be able to get into stealth.  I went from being able to use Stealth after Siphon & Heal to literally not being able to stealth at all without taking these clunky utility skills to do it.

 

Here's the thing though.  When this game launched and Ele's were using attunements to get 20 interesting skills per weapon, Mesmers were running around with phantasms, Necromancers were becoming unkillable death gods with Shroud... Thieves?  We were poking enemies with Steal to get a randomly-useless-item, and we were told "this is your core mechanic".  But hey we could customize it like a project car through trait lines, which is how we all ended up taking Hidden Thief so we could access Stealth.  Stealth is the real class mechanic of Thief after all, and it basically always has been.  But we can't do that any more, because our access to Stealth hinged on precedence.

 

The state of stealth as of todays patch;

  1. We have a traitline (Shadow Arts) that is now fully dedicated to pimping out Stealth, but it provides no methods into Stealth (aside from ressing allies)
  2. Deception Skills have no trait support, and all their cooldowns are too long.  Quite literally the strength of stealth skills as a whole do not justify only being able to use them once or twice a minute.
  3. Our only options into Stealth are;
    1. Dagger 5:  Which only works if you're playing a melee build
    2. Hide in Shadows:  Healing skill (30s cooldown) that has no trait support, and removes utility from non-dps specs like Specter
    3. Blinding Powder (40s cooldown), Shadow Refuge (60s cooldown), Shadow Portal (60s cooldown) - skills that Anet seemingly wants us to now be forced to take in order to get into stealth.  These have always been very build-specific and situational abilities though, so they don't fit with most of the Thief classes playstyles.  I know as a Specter there's no room for these on my bar, and they would be pointless to take since again you would only be using Stealth once a minute or so which is nothing to build around.
    4. Shadow Meld, which is Deadeye exclusive and again still has a very lengthy cooldown

 

The fact that Stealth could be weaved into the playstyle of every Thief spec via Hidden Thief was critical to its inclusion.  With its removal, it not only removes a lot of the interesting parts of Thief playstyles, its a direct nerf to everything on Thief that resulted from it.

 

  1. Stealth skills damage values were not adjusted for now only being used once or twice a minute.  They are now significantly underpowered.
  2. Stealth traitlines have lost a substantial amount of their pre-patch/post-patch effect.  Why take the traitline when you know you're not going to be in stealth basically ever.  

 

So I want to propose this very controversial idea;  Steal as it currently is should not be our core mechanic.  Stealth should be inherently baked into Steal/Mark/Siphon.  I say controversial only because I know I'm posting on these forums, which has always been 'the perpetual echo chamber of NoOoOoOOoO'.

 

Anyways, I mostly wrote this thread for catharsis.  I really wish this patch was delayed so they could re-assess the changes they were making to classes.  I would have been fine with new content being pushed back a few weeks if it meant they would really think about what they were doing to a lot of our classes.  I'll be putting my Thief down for a long time as a result of todays update (I know, boohoo poor me).  Thanks.

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Yeah. Pretty much all of that. 

I'm ok with the stealth nerfs and such to where traits get triggered upon exiting and entering stealth rather than while you're just sitting in it, but removing the stealth from steal was just stupid.

That and no longer having the deception skill cooldown is just..../sigh.

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On 6/28/2022 at 10:24 PM, LoreChief.8391 said:

Hi all, LoreChief here, been playing since BWE2.  I'm a Thief main, have been for every expansion so far.  I know this is nothing special, let's move on though.

 

I want to be as non-sassy as possible when I write this, because I am full of sass right now.  This recent balance patch has left me livid, as I've been enjoying this expansion playing Specter.  I get to support allies, give them barrier, heal them, put conditions on enemies, and use a pretty neat Stealth Scepter skill to allow me to do some mediocre damage (the damage is low, but its really fun to stealth as a support character!).  I can't do that as of today though.  I'm not particularly sure what I can do on this class any more because of the nerfs to stealth.

 

If you wanted to nerf the perma-stealthers why not just do something like change Black Powder to a dark field instead of Smoke?  Spamming SB skills into your own smoke field was always a very janky way to play this class in the first place, and you never really accomplished much either.  Instead what we now have is a 'Shadow Arts' traitline that gives you literally no way to get into stealth.  Those of us playing Specter now have to give up our very localized utility in order to take high-cooldown stealth skills like Blinding Powder to occasionally be able to get into stealth.  I went from being able to use Stealth after Siphon & Heal to literally not being able to stealth at all without taking these clunky utility skills to do it.

 

Here's the thing though.  When this game launched and Ele's were using attunements to get 20 interesting skills per weapon, Mesmers were running around with phantasms, Necromancers were becoming unkillable death gods with Shroud... Thieves?  We were poking enemies with Steal to get a randomly-useless-item, and we were told "this is your core mechanic".  But hey we could customize it like a project car through trait lines, which is how we all ended up taking Hidden Thief so we could access Stealth.  Stealth is the real class mechanic of Thief after all, and it basically always has been.  But we can't do that any more, because our access to Stealth hinged on precedence.

 

The state of stealth as of todays patch;

  1. We have a traitline (Shadow Arts) that is now fully dedicated to pimping out Stealth, but it provides no methods into Stealth (aside from ressing allies)
  2. Deception Skills have no trait support, and all their cooldowns are too long.  Quite literally the strength of stealth skills as a whole do not justify only being able to use them once or twice a minute.
  3. Our only options into Stealth are;
    1. Dagger 5:  Which only works if you're playing a melee build
    2. Hide in Shadows:  Healing skill (30s cooldown) that has no trait support, and removes utility from non-dps specs like Specter
    3. Blinding Powder (40s cooldown), Shadow Refuge (60s cooldown), Shadow Portal (60s cooldown) - skills that Anet seemingly wants us to now be forced to take in order to get into stealth.  These have always been very build-specific and situational abilities though, so they don't fit with most of the Thief classes playstyles.  I know as a Specter there's no room for these on my bar, and they would be pointless to take since again you would only be using Stealth once a minute or so which is nothing to build around.
    4. Shadow Meld, which is Deadeye exclusive and again still has a very lengthy cooldown

 

The fact that Stealth could be weaved into the playstyle of every Thief spec via Hidden Thief was critical to its inclusion.  With its removal, it not only removes a lot of the interesting parts of Thief playstyles, its a direct nerf to everything on Thief that resulted from it.

 

  1. Stealth skills damage values were not adjusted for now only being used once or twice a minute.  They are now significantly underpowered.
  2. Stealth traitlines have lost a substantial amount of their pre-patch/post-patch effect.  Why take the traitline when you know you're not going to be in stealth basically ever.  

 

So I want to propose this very controversial idea;  Steal as it currently is should not be our core mechanic.  Stealth should be inherently baked into Steal/Mark/Siphon.  I say controversial only because I know I'm posting on these forums, which has always been 'the perpetual echo chamber of NoOoOoOOoO'.

 

Anyways, I mostly wrote this thread for catharsis.  I really wish this patch was delayed so they could re-assess the changes they were making to classes.  I would have been fine with new content being pushed back a few weeks if it meant they would really think about what they were doing to a lot of our classes.  I'll be putting my Thief down for a long time as a result of todays update (I know, boohoo poor me).  Thanks.

+10000000000000000000

they destroyed completely thief with this despicable update.....I think devs have no clue about pvp

 

Edited by KillingTime.8731
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well why complain tho? thief got shafted already before any elites got added.

then daredevil came nice bit of a buff

then Deadeye came which is useless

then specter came another useless thief in my opinion

 

thief should be like it was back in the day lurk out of stealth with a massive hit remove the kitten 1s cd on backstab when everything nowadays has aegis etc so we can insta spank again.
tbh thief for me already lost it before HoT as i said sure Daredevil made a come back but the DMG only went downhill or every1 else its dmg only went up while thief stay stable.
where others just tank ur dmg and poop even more dmg on your face u as thief have to kitten out all the time relay on stealth or ur teamm8s to get something done.

 

any1 claiming a thief is good at 1v1 is just smashing on clueless people cus thief is horrible at just about everything beside helping some1 else finishing the job faster
i switched to ranger long time ago and im glad i did i enjoy it big time 🙂 atleast my GS 2 hits as hard as backstab and can insta reset for another big fat crit 😄

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1 hour ago, PeerlessArch.6547 said:

Yeah. Pretty much all of that. 

I'm ok with the stealth nerfs and such to where traits get triggered upon exiting and entering stealth rather than while you're just sitting in it, but removing the stealth from steal was just stupid.

That and no longer having the deception skill cooldown is just..../sigh.

 

The deception nerf was indeed unnecessary.

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They want to see how far they can push the players before the game implodes and at this rate, looks like very soon. ANet couldn't organize a 1 man rush on a 10 man outhouse, why would you people think they could do anything but bite the hand that feeds them? Not really sure who is in charge nor why they were put there but their leadership is bad. Really, really bad. No doubt I'm going to get banned because, having led men into battle, I'm calling out baby booboo and his supposed leadership abilities. Well, unless scuttling the ship was the mission then mission success.

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Baking Stealth into Steal is pretty much the worst way to go about fixing any of these "problems" so to speak.

It hard-nerfs CnD by making the thief unable to engage and deal its relevant burst because then CnD cannot be cast without self-revealing, subsequently invalidating any edge offhand dagger brings to thief in any kit combination, and pretty much nullifies using SoH as an interrupt because it'll similarly force reveal in unintended ways.  This doesn't "fix" thief so much as just making the old busted builds better than the alternatives again.

Thief is finally in a relatively normalized spot between its weapon sets now.  People who only ever played the meta stuff now are finally now realizing just how abysmally disparate the different kits were; the thief could never actually get meaningfully buffed in any way, shape, or form so long as the old stuff existed (and hard-carried the class like it did before).

I'm not really sure how you're claiming you only get stealth attacks off twice a minute, either, when there are options to gain stealth purely using initiative via D/P and x/D on core/any spec, DE Rifle's Field->DR combo and Silent Scope, x/P on Daredevil via BD, and plenty of utilities.

The veneer is finally being pulled from SA keeping the class afloat with brainless play patterns such that real buffs can come from numbers, skill reworks/tuning, and other trait lines.

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On the brighter side.

 

A friend of mine was showing me a new game he plays and it looks good.

 

Bunch pf fools in anet. 

 

All I do is wvw. There are so many anti stealth mechanics out there already that it gets stupid. I'll be fighting

 

2 different types of reveal traps.

Many professions can reveal.

Sentries mark.

Towers mark.

 

But hey. They are giving heal and super speed from stealth.  Only issue is that stealth has been taken away. 

 

Ooh. Maybe they want every thief to be a deadeye?

 

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Seconded - at the very least, I want anet to look into this. I think some of the thief changes were long overdue - I'm glad stealth stacking was finally nerfed. 

 

Anet needs to figure out how often they want thieves using their stealth attacks, because for a while now only a few select builds have even had the option, and it's still feast or famine. It's been...basically backstab for ages, hasn't it, with some sword and maybe shortbow stealth attack if you got into stealth, swapped, and need the immob for some reason. And they're NEVER used in PvE except for that one backstab spamming d/d build.

 

I really enjoy playing support specter in pvp, and so far the best option I've found is actually deadly arts + sage, because it lets me actually do damage while supporting using scepter 3. However, shadow arts was a nice backup/alternate playstyle because it had quick, short, frequent stealth access I could get to make use of the stealth attack to heal allies - my only ally heal! And now POOF, gone with the patch. I really enjoy some of the stuff added to SA, and it makes sense why anet wouldn't want SA thieves having as much easy stealth access as before since they're now rewarded a lot for dipping in and out, but goodness gracious.

 

For a unique class mechanic, stealth attacks are hard to access for a lot of builds.

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