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Maybe PvP should be developed to be fun?


Luthan.5236

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I know the main thought of most players and devs is: Develop it with e-sports in mind. (Well at least they tried lol.) Attracting "competitive" players ... so they will stream it - and attrackt more players with their streams and stuff.

But ... what if this is the wrong way? In doing so ... you compete with all the other games that do it this way. And those games are a lot stronger at such things. In PvE GW2 decides to be different on purpose. Even though some players prefer raids and want gear treadmill - the devs did not focus on that a lot. It would not have made the player base bigger imo - the people that like that stufff would have stayed at other games that were dedicated to such stuff from the beginning.

And the core GW2 player that likes the fact that there is no gear treadmill ... would have stopped. Meaning a big player loss on the one end ... while gaining less players on the other end.

In the PvP in GW2 ... there seem to be people that play it for fun. And people that play it for the rewards. I saw the thread about match manipulaion ... and god ... some really seem to care too much about some title to manipulate just to be #1. Is it really that important?

I think we could remove the rewards for top 250 at all. Focus in the winning/fun. You'd just lose people that try too hard for just that single title reward - trying to manipulate. Not a big loss. For the ones that care about "competitive" play ... they shoul still play - even with less titles/rewards. Just for their own rank. If that is not incentive enough ... I don't know if it would be better to not focus on those player that then would leave.

I say: Be unique. Allow imbalanced team setups and classes/professions. As long as people can have the same thing on both teams. Drop the queue restrictions on ranked and/or remove ranked at all and make 1 single mode with 5 vs. 5 with 5 man queue allowed. Then people can have fun.

That Spirit Watch restriction and the 5 vs 5 are just because the devs care about balancing it for rankin/rating and players that care about such stuff. Cause there is some stuff imbalanced that might annoy players that then lose rank. Playing for fun (not ranked) - and it would not be a big deal cause nobody would care. The imbalanced stuff can randomly distributed. Same as with the classes on each team. And the 5 man queued people. (Had unranked with a duo and 3 guys grouped up yesterday and we still won with duo.)

And yes: I know some people consider it "fun" to try hard for ranking. (But that is also what leads to toxicity and getting angry.) I am talking about the other fun. That you can focus more on - if different other stuff gets removed that lets people focus on rank/rating too much.

This certainly could get more players that like this type of fun .... (cause there are not too many other games focusing on this) ... while jusing just a handful die-hard rating maximizers.

Edited by Luthan.5236
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10 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I know the main thought of most players and devs is: Develop it with e-sports in mind. (Well at least they tried lol.) Attracting "competitive" players ... so they will stream it - and attrackt more players with their streams and stuff.

I don't think this is correct tbh. PvP was never really focused on e-sport and they definitely didn't follow through on any such idea, hence why it failed (I would still very much appreciate if an esport scene could be established tho, but this is nothing that can be forced by the devs).
But in general, there's no development going on at all, there's nothing in the minds of Anet for attracting any kind of players to PvP or anything.. unfortunately.
While the EoD announcement events were pretty disappointing for the WvW community they are least got mentioned lol. Not a single word on PvP, not even "yea, we know you still exist and still care" (like for WvW). Absolutely nothing. Current PvP just doesn't offer the return of investment for Anet/NCSoft so it has basically been on maintenance since.. Swiss and Djinn was introduced? so for a couple of years.
Even tho I don't think that it needs to be like this tbh, there are opportunities for Anet to both encourage forming and growing a proper pvp community (aka "money potential") AND also monetize it without being p2w or take away from any competitive aspect. But that's a completely different topic.
 

10 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

In the PvP in GW2 ... there seem to be people that play it for fun. And people that play it for the rewards. I saw the thread about match manipulaion ... and god ... some really seem to care too much about some title to manipulate just to be #1. Is it really that important?

I think we could remove the rewards for top 250 at all. Focus in the winning/fun. You'd just lose people that try too hard for just that single title reward - trying to manipulate. Not a big loss. For the ones that care about "competitive" play ... they shoul still play - even with less titles/rewards. Just for their own rank. If that is not incentive enough ... I don't know if it would be better to not focus on those player that then would leave.

Yes, that's important in my opinion. And apparently a lot of people share parts of this opinion as we already had 1 season without anything special as a reward (just a few big pvp potions) and well... the feedback wasn't great and now we have new titles, so there's that.
I personally would definitely be disincentivized to play pvp if there's literally nothing to work towards. I mean I don't play for any rewards (although I do appreciate the league rewards) and I would still play PvP but there would definitely be something missing. I think it's important to have something that's unique to this particular game mode you can work towards and actually see your improvements.
Take me as an example, last season I managed to get back into and finally stay in the top250 until the season has ended, next season I want to stay in top100, maybe I can get up to top25 in the one afterwards, who knows?
Like.. I've been in the top100 a number of  times over the years already but always failed to maintain a spot anywhere in the leaderboard because I've always managed to completely kitten up my rating right at the end of a season. However, in my mind being in the top100 for a couple days/weeks is worth almost nothing because I can't show any proof ingame.
 

10 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

I say: Be unique. Allow imbalanced team setups and classes/professions. As long as people can have the same thing on both teams. Drop the queue restrictions on ranked and/or remove ranked at all and make 1 single mode with 5 vs. 5 with 5 man queue allowed. Then people can have fun.

That Spirit Watch restriction and the 5 vs 5 are just because the devs care about balancing it for rankin/rating and players that care about such stuff. Cause there is some stuff imbalanced that might annoy players that then lose rank. Playing for fun (not ranked) - and it would not be a big deal cause nobody would care. The imbalanced stuff can randomly distributed. Same as with the classes on each team. And the 5 man queued people. (Had unranked with a duo and 3 guys grouped up yesterday and we still won with duo.)

There has been a thread about merging unranked and ranked into 1 queue recently and I expressed why I think this would be a bad idea.
In short: Unranked is good for testing new builds or classes without worrying about rating. Ranked is good for competitiveness, because well.. as you may have noticed from my comment so far I do value things like rating, leaderboard and unique, specific rewards for reaching certain goals associated with it.

And I think the devs don't care at all, neither about balancing nor making pvp enjoyable or anything else. PvP just doesn't get any funds, period. There's no change not because they think it's perfect and that it's the best for players but rather because they only have 1 or 2 guys working on it - if there's nothing more important around the corner, which has been the case probably since they started IBS.

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tbh, the game as a whole should be developed to be fun.

class skills actually accessible in all modes.

 

and warrior is pretty the opposite of being fun, after years of removing all the mechanics that's related to fun even in the slightest way.

 

while classes like engineer kept getting these fun mechanics, even when its not op, but still fun and meme worthy

like flamethrower build and now machine gun build.

 

regardless warrior being viable or no, warrior skills and traits and utilities are now all boring as hell. no diversity no variety.

everything feels the same. 90% of the warrior utility skills are only buffs with no mechanics, yet not a single one gives healing on default nor even give out any meaningful boon thats not might or fury. and 10% of the the actual utility skills does no damage in pvp. 99% of warrior utilities in pvp does no damage.

 

one of the reason why warrior number drops even when banner is basically required in instanced pve content.

people just have warrior as back up for when banner is needed, else basically never log on to it.

or just play it as a side character.

everything on warrior should be slow and clunky and boring, that seems to be anet's warrior philosophy.

machine gun should be on warrior, like for real. like volley was supposed to be the machinegun skill.

Edited by Lighter.5631
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Giving rewards for ratings is rather pointless in an unscheduled online environment, people will always manipulate the matches to ensure success.

 

Because of this some games are starting to move away from rating systems into simply number of games played/won.

 

After all, there is little point in giving a prestigious reward if that reward is just going to be scammed out of the community anyway.

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2 hours ago, DoomNexus.5324 said:

There has been a thread about merging unranked and ranked into 1 queue recently and I expressed why I think this would be a bad idea.

In short: Unranked is good for testing new builds or classes without worrying about rating. Ranked is good for competitiveness, because well.. as you may have noticed from my comment so far I do value things like rating, leaderboard and unique, specific rewards for reaching certain goals associated with it.

There are still those arena things with the hotjoin though - those could be  used for testing new builds as well. Though ... they seem dead pretty much. Seems in the past they even tried to sell tokens for gems (real money). Then this got changed. And the wiki even mentions how people can use those for farming of that old/other rank (nobody cares about) which gives some chests every now and then. (Where the farming is actually allowed lol.) These "custom arenas" together with the stronghold mode ... feel pretty weird. (Like they actually should be removed completely as long as you decide to keep unranked where you still have all the normal maps + Spirit Watch.)

It is like keeping stuff alive that had been developed once in the past. (Suggestions to remove stuff never really are liked.)

For the competitive thing ... aren't there tournaments? Never really played those. I just go in ranked - even with the testing new builds/classes. Might as well get the few pips you even get when losing. (Or getting lucky and getting a win even when playing worse on some new build.) Cause ... the rewards are there.

(Only think when I try unranked is now then the ranked has 2 vs. 2 which is boring.)

So ... 1 queue(ranked/unranked combined + Spirit Watch in rotation). The tournaments (professional/competitive play)). And the custom arenas (for the lulz). Maybe hide rank/rating (that you only use for matchmaking in the background) - in the queue matches. And advertise the tournaments more. If people want to be shown on some leaderboard then advertise the tournament winner names somewhere in the PvP window instead.

The normal rewards can and should be kept of course. I don't play mainly for them - but I guess they are nice to have ... as compensation for when you hav bad (=boring) matches and matchups. Knowing that you still get a few pips for losing and then might get more once you win in another match - helps enduring this.

Edited by Luthan.5236
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