ArenaNet have broken my Thief/Deadeye

[MATIC.9542]

 

 

I used to go to baseball games all the time. I didn't really care about the games, I just went for the hot dogs.  

They came in these little cardboard boats, with the condiments on the side, nice and neat and easy to eat. One day I went to a game, ordered my usual (2 dogs, all the fixins!) and to my horror, the weiners were served to me, not in tidy boats, but carelessly wrapped in foil!

It was so much easier and efficient to eat my tasty dogs out of the boats! Now I have to deal with this ridiculous messy foil. The condiments get everywhere, and it completely ruined my hot dog noshing experience! 

I kept going back, even though it was a sub par experience, because where else am I going to get hot dogs? I would look around wondering why no one else was as upset as me over this. No one else seemed to care. At all. They acted completely oblivious to this huge issue with the hot dogs.

 And then, as I walked dejectedly out of the stadium one night, I realized something.

All the other people were there for the baseball game. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by MATIC.9542

[DeceiverX.8361]

The levels of cognitive dissonance OP has thinking the ability to just avoid PvP'ing in a PvP mode is healthy and acceptable, and then downright insisting that changing it was a bad thing (finally!) to be something more engaging because it breaks the ethos of competitive game modes, after repeated demonstration his knowledge of the class and core mechanics of the game is very limited, is truly staggering.

Despite it all, defending subjugating literally everyone in the smallscale scene, past and present, to the absolute nonsense that was sustained stealth builds because you want to go gather nodes for gold (which is extremely poor money relative to PvE) is legitimately one of the most selfish things I think I've seen on these boards lol.

[Wolfshade.9251]

This! So much this!

As much as I love the idea of a heal specter being viable (which won't happen until  baby's-first-111-alac-spam gets nerfed to dirt and beyond), mutilating Shadow Arts and destroying stealth deadeye in the process definitely wasn't the way. Thanks for ruining a niche build I guess...

[Bunny.9834]

There are no reasons complaining about the thief in these forums unless you want them to be nerfed. 

Just pick one of the holy trinity and switch to that. (Necro, Guardian, Engi) 

[smiiirf.3201]

deadeye is broken now in WvW

[Curennos.9307]

You can still maintain permastealth with a relatively comfortable duration even with the change. I don't have time to spend ten minutes doing nothing just to see if there are any gaps, but I went through a few uses of Shadow Refuge and it works fine. This is also without dodging on rifle - I was on d/p the entire time, so I guess adding in that extra second from dodging would make it easier to maintain. I took the stealth heal, blinding powder, shadow meld, shadow refuge, and shadow gust.

 

I'm not reading four whole pages but you can still do this. Just takes a bit more attention.

[ASP.8093]

On 6/30/2022 at 8:14 AM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

My primary use of GW2 is solo roaming, harvesting to make gold.

Silent Scope still gives a base stealth duration of 3 seconds. That's enough to upkeep perma-stealth in PvE if used together with the other stealth-granting tools in your kit (smoke combos especially).

Use the Raptor to get from node to node, it's way faster than trying to run around on foot. Then you can just stack up a few seconds of stealth when you dismount, get the thing, mount back up and move on.

[ASP.8093]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:38 PM, Wolfshade.9251 said:

This! So much this!

As much as I love the idea of a heal specter being viable (which won't happen until  baby's-first-111-alac-spam gets nerfed to dirt and beyond), mutilating Shadow Arts and destroying stealth deadeye in the process definitely wasn't the way. Thanks for ruining a niche build I guess...

Shadow Arts Deadeye has lost some stealth uptime but gained even more initiative management and condi cleansing. It's still pretty good at Deadeye's typical "bunker busting" role in WvW roaming. If you're struggling with disengaging in outnumbered fights now that your stealth uptime has been reduced, try Shadow Portal alongside Shadowstep, and get in the habit of using Rifle 4 more — thieves have so many mobility and disengage options that thief players simply overlook most of them.

[misterman.1530]

On 6/30/2022 at 8:14 AM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Something happened this week (around 28/29 June 2022).

 

My primary use of GW2 is solo roaming, harvesting to make gold.  Yes, shock, I mostly play solo.  But should that make me a lower class of player?  ArenaNet seems to think so.

 

They should have broken it further and removed constant stealth, healing in stealth, teleportation, and the ability to continually teleport around when downed. 

For instance, once stealthed, there should be a 10s delay before any kind of stealth can be reapplied.

As a trade-off, give you a bit more power or health. 

As of right now, in WvW at least, a usual thief "victory" is "Hey, I ran away successfully. Yay, I win".

[Sahne.6950]

buhuuuu! i have to actually play the game, instead of cheesing my game thru it!

buhuuuu! i have to actually fight monsters..... in a MMO!!!! HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY MY FUN!

[ASP.8093]

On 7/18/2022 at 7:52 AM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

[Hyperbolic complaining]

Good job appropriating the experience of sexual assault survivors so you can complain about a video game. That's not creepy or exploitative at all.

 

At this point in the thread, the only useful advice anyone can give you is the one thing you're not gonna want to hear:

Get over yourself.

You are the only person preventing yourself from having fun right now. This isn't even an "Anet broke my build!" situation — you are barely using your own build. All the tools to keep doing the thing you're doing are at your finger tips, but you refuse to explore them because you have convinced yourself that learning how a combo field works is for "elite players" only.

[DeceiverX.8361]

10 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

Good job appropriating the experience of sexual assault survivors so you can complain about a video game. That's not creepy or exploitative at all.

 

At this point in the thread, the only useful advice anyone can give you is the one thing you're not gonna want to hear:

Get over yourself.

You are the only person preventing yourself from having fun right now. This isn't even an "Anet broke my build!" situation — you are barely using your own build. All the tools to keep doing the thing you're doing are at your finger tips, but you refuse to explore them because you have convinced yourself that learning how a combo field works is for "elite players" only.

I legitimately couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that utterly CRAZED conflation of SA.

I stand by my comment about cognitive dissonance.  Honestly, this loss of player is probably a boon for the rest of the WvW community.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:48 PM, ASP.8093 said:

Silent Scope still gives a base stealth duration of 3 seconds. That's enough to upkeep perma-stealth in PvE if used together with the other stealth-granting tools in your kit (smoke combos especially).

Use the Raptor to get from node to node, it's way faster than trying to run around on foot. Then you can just stack up a few seconds of stealth when you dismount, get the thing, mount back up and move on.

I have no idea how you're going to use the smoke combo which are pistol-based, with Silent Scope, which is rifle-based.  At least not in an effective way.  Still, as PvE is not my main mode of play, I guess that doesn't matter too much, to me at least.
I already use the Raptor, and other mounts, to move the larger distances.  The challenge exists when you're amongst aggro-producers and can't mount.  The reduced stealth duration in WvW means this more likely to happen, and that means the whole farming process is slower.  All because someone got their underwear in a twist about Thieves/Deadeyes being able to avoid being killed in PvE and WvW. 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/17/2022 at 6:47 PM, Bunny.9834 said:

There are no reasons complaining about the thief in these forums unless you want them to be nerfed. 

Just pick one of the holy trinity and switch to that. (Necro, Guardian, Engi) 

So, what you're saying is that a) ArenaNet will be deliberately unprofessionally and 2) despite offering nine Professions, there are really only three playable ones?

[Sahne.6950]

40 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

I have no idea how you're going to use the smoke combo which are pistol-based, with Silent Scope, which is rifle-based. 

first of all... you can use smokecombos even just with the rifle, since the rifle has a smokefield and a jump.. so theres that!

 

Here is a list of pobssible smoke combos  with rifle (mainhand) + d/p (offhand).

Rifle kneeled 4 into rifle 4

rifle kneeled 4 >swap offhand > 2  2  2  2  2  

offhand 5 > 2 2 2 2 2 2

Offhand 5 > swap to rifle  4 , dodge, 4, dodge

 

There is a million diffrent smokecombos that you can do. You can chain those depending on what weaponset you are currently holding in your hand.

The main thing that everyone that is complaining about not being able to permastealth has to learn is to "dip" out of stealth for a short duration. For some people its easier said then done, but you simply have to become visible for a splitsecond between your stealth applications.

look at the Stealthed buff, just VERY VERY shortly BEFORE you will be visible again, try and stealth again. The stealth will apply at the end of your dodge/whatever animation. During your animation the stealth will run out and you will become stealthed again. If done right, you barely become visible, but get the buffs from leaving and entering stealth. You will gain 3 initiative for every stealth, and with this knowledge you can "permastealth". You will  become visible, but the timewindows are so short that no npc or player will be able to hit you. If you are doing it good and for example use your dodgerolls(rifle or boundingdodger) to apply the stealth, you will be in your dodgeanimation while your visible, so there is simply no way at all that your getting hurt even during the times where your visible.  They by no means removed permastealth. its just not that braindead ez to achieve like it used to be.

if you want a TRUE permastealth you simply have to run d/p+shortbow daredevil with boundingdodger and HIS,blindigpowder, shadowrefugee.

how to stack stealth:  pistol 5 >dodge >swap to bow while dodging > fire your 2 into the smokefield while running in it again>dodge > fire your 2 into the smokefield while running in it again > dodge > fire your 2 into the smokefield while running in it again.  

with this combo you will be permastealthed no problemo. Use the HIS,blindingpowder,shadowrefugee in areas where you would hit enemys with your stealthcombo.

et voila! i fixed thief for you ❤️ everything you used your thief for is still possible.. but this time... you have to actually learn to play the game 😉

Edited July 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/19/2022 at 10:56 AM, misterman.1530 said:

They should have broken it further and removed constant stealth, healing in stealth, teleportation, and the ability to continually teleport around when downed. 

For instance, once stealthed, there should be a 10s delay before any kind of stealth can be reapplied.

As a trade-off, give you a bit more power or health. 

As of right now, in WvW at least, a usual thief "victory" is "Hey, I ran away successfully. Yay, I win".

So, why is getting to run way and not be killed such an abomination to you?  Because the player who ran away denied you the ability to kill their character? 

 

Why is surviving not a win?  It would appear your narrow viewpoint is that the only way to win is to kill other's characters.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

5 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

first of all... you can use smokecombos even just with the rifle, since the rifle has a smokefield and a jump.. so theres that!

 

Here is a list of pobssible smoke combos  with rifle (mainhand) + d/p (offhand).

Rifle kneeled 4 into rifle 4

rifle kneeled 4 >swap offhand > 2  2  2  2  2  

offhand 5 > 2 2 2 2 2 2

Offhand 5 > swap to rifle  4 , dodge, 4, dodge

 

There is a million diffrent smokecombos that you can do. You can chain those depending on what weaponset you are currently holding in your hand.

The main thing that everyone that is complaining about not being able to permastealth has to learn is to "dip" out of stealth for a short duration. For some people its easier said then done, but you simply have to become visible for a splitsecond between your stealth applications.

look at the Stealthed buff, just a quarter of a second after you become visible, try and stealth again. You will gain 3 initiative for every stealth, and with this knowledge you can "permastealth". You will  become visible, but the timewindows are so short that no npc or player will be able to hit you. They by no means removed permastealth. its just not that braindead ez to achieve like it used to be.

Okay, so what you're saying is ... despite ArenaNet's best attempts to break the build and kowtow to the people who got their underwear in a twist about permastealth in PvE and WvW that, in combat scenarios*, it's still possible to be virtually in permastealth.  Thus ArenaNet ruined the build in PvE but didn't actually address the PvP and WvW problem the Anti-Stealth Brigade got their underwear messed up about. 

 

That actually sounds even worse than ArenaNet simply breaking the build, because they didn't actually achieve the apparent aim.  🤷‍♂️  It means the only people who really suffer are the PvE players farming.  No doubt we're in a minority and thus our enjoyment is at the bottom of ArenaNet's Players We Care About list.  That is if it even makes it onto the list at all. 

Oh, and thank you for going into the detail.  Whilst I'm unlikely to be able to employ the moves myself (both through lack of ability and lack of use of PvE) others reading this thread may be able to, so I am sure the time you spent replying will be appreciated by more than just me.  Seriously, thanks.

*Clearly the plays you detailed are not going to work whilst the character is standing still harvesting.  You'll either not be able to do them, or doing them will interrupt the harvesting action, which amounts to the same thing; harvesting will take longer.

[Sahne.6950]

18 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Okay, so what you're saying is ... despite ArenaNet's best attempts to break the build and kowtow to the people who got their underwear in a twist about permastealth in PvE and WvW that, in combat scenarios*, it's still possible to be virtually in permastealth.  Thus ArenaNet ruined the build in PvE but didn't actually address the PvP and WvW problem the Anti-Stealth Brigade got their underwear messed up about. 

 

That actually sounds even worse than ArenaNet simply breaking the build, because they didn't actually achieve the apparent aim.  🤷‍♂️  It means the only people who really suffer are the PvE players farming.  No doubt we're in a minority and thus our enjoyment is at the bottom of ArenaNet's Players We Care About list.  That is if it even makes it onto the list at all. 

Oh, and thank you for going into the detail.  Whilst I'm unlikely to be able to employ the moves myself (both through lack of ability and lack of use of PvE) others reading this thread may be able to, so I am sure the time you spent replying will be appreciated by more than just me.  Seriously, thanks.

*Clearly the plays you detailed are not going to work whilst the character is standing still harvesting.  You'll either not be able to do them, or doing them will interrupt the harvesting action, which amounts to the same thing; harvesting will take longer.

You are not reading carefully. You need to play dedicated builds to achieve true permastealth, before everyone with SA traitline could do it.

secondly, YOU DIP OUT OF STEALTH, thus people can track where your goin. im pvp/wvw the thiefs will become visible periodically thus making their movements more predictable. So they actually dealt with the problem. Permastealth is gone, but thiefs get more resources and sustain now.

next: you can ofc harvest with it. you will be able to sit on 15 seconds of stealth permanently....  even if you fk up something just use shadowrefugee and enjoy another 12 seconds of stealth being slapped ontop... bruh you seriously should consider learning to play the game.

and lastly.... SAYING THAT PVE FARMERS ARE A MINORITY.... shows just how little you know about guildwars 2 and its community.

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

You are not reading carefully. You need to play dedicated builds to achieve true permastealth, before everyone with SA traitline could do it.

secondly, YOU DIP OUT OF STEALTH, thus people can track where your goin. im pvp/wvw the thiefs will become visible periodically thus making their movements more predictable.

next: you can ofc harvest with it. you will be able to sit on 15 seconds of stealth permanently.... bruh you srlsy need to l2p xD

and lastly.... SAYING THAT PVE FARMERS ARE A MINORITY.... shows just how far disconnected from reality you are.

 

Yeah, I got the 'dip out of stealth' bit, and that's the thing which, given the the reduction from 3s to 1s of stealth granted by the dodge roll (plus the loss of the additional stealth duration) is the thing which really, really, hurts the WvW player simply trying to get out of combat and go somewhere else.  

 

What I'm still trying to fathom out it is why some PvP/WvW players have so much hate for players being able to avoid being killed by simply not being able to be hit as easily.  At the same time they are simply ignoring that a stealthed character does not contribute to claiming objectives, and that if the Thief attacks they reveal themselves, which was the other player's desire in the first place.

 

The oldest rule of survival is simply don't get hit in the first place.  The whole concept of any thief-based profession/class is about stealth.  It's reasonable to expect a Thief type to be able to do considerable, and severely debilitating damage from a single well-placed hit from an ambush (stealthed) position.  Yet the damage a Thief can do is so far removed from that of the more tanky characters as to make them ineffective, not even a serious threat.  An annoyance maybe (because apparently if you can't acheive that kill it is very, very annoying for the players who simply must kill other characters), but not really a viable threat.  The ability to setup an ambush scenario has been severely degraded in the first place, and in the second place the damage available to Thief characters simply does not compete with that from harder hitting Professions, even if the Thief has had time to setup what should be a good attack.  The Thief will have to land many, many, more hits to start to become anything more than a minor disturbance.  That is time Thieve cannot afford to be in combat as their ability to survive damage is so much lower than that of the harder hitting opponents.

 

Umm, 15 seconds isn't permanent, it's 15 seconds.  😆  But yes, I am using Shadow Refuge more frequently now.  The recharge time means that can delay me doing the next bit of harvesting, and yes, I resent that ArenaNet have made it take longer for me to accomplish the harvesting.  It's not just the recharge time for Shadow Refuge, of course, it's also the presence of aggro meaning the character can't mount and get to the next node as quickly.

If Thief PvE farmers are not a minority, why do you think ArenaNet chose to attack their playstyle so aggressively (was it laziness, incompetence, not caring, a combination, or something else)?

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:57 PM, ASP.8093 said:

Shadow Arts Deadeye has lost some stealth uptime but gained even more initiative management and condi cleansing. It's still pretty good at Deadeye's typical "bunker busting" role in WvW roaming. If you're struggling with disengaging in outnumbered fights now that your stealth uptime has been reduced, try Shadow Portal alongside Shadowstep, and get in the habit of using Rifle 4 more — thieves have so many mobility and disengage options that thief players simply overlook most of them.

Okay, sounds like that could be useful for PvP and WvW, but it kinda misses the point that the changes aren't as useful in PvE farming because ArenaNet broke the build there, when nothing needed to be done to the PvE build.

I'd like to hear more from you regarding the 'bunker busting'.  How is that achieved, please?  If I could be useful to others in WvW that would be something.

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

I have no idea how you're going to use the smoke combo which are pistol-based, with Silent Scope, which is rifle-based.

That's because you don't know your own class and build. At all.

At all!

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

how to stack stealth:  pistol 5 >dodge >swap to bow while dodging > fire your 2 into the smokefield while running in it again>dodge > fire your 2 into the smokefield while running in it again > dodge > fire your 2 into the smokefield while running in it again.  

So, the weapons being used are Pistol+Dagger and Bow.  The stealth obtained from dodge roll comes from when you're using a Rifle, or did I miss something?

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

3 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

That's because you don't know your own class and build. At all.

At all!

So, how do you benefit from Silent Scope whilst not using a Rifle?

(We've got distracted from the original point, which is the breakage of stealth in PvE and using it for farming, not for combat.  Whilst there have been suggestions on how to get, but not really maintain, stealth, they involve actions which cannot be carried out at the time time as harvesting.)

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:25 PM, Sahne.6950 said:

buhuuuu! i have to actually play the game, instead of cheesing my game thru it!

buhuuuu! i have to actually fight monsters..... in a MMO!!!! HOW DARE YOU TAKE AWAY MY FUN!

You've either missed the points or are being deliberately narrow-minded.  GW2 is presented as an environment where people can play it using a variety of styles.  Directly fighting monsters is just one of them.  The fundamental principle of any thief-type is to be unobtrusive, to be able to avoid combat.  They don't have heavy armour, or an ability to absorb a lot of damage.  Therefore their key defence is not being hit in the first place. 

If you don't want to play a Thief that's your choice, but don't actively support acts which take that choice away from other players.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:13 PM, ASP.8093 said:

This isn't even an "Anet broke my build!" situation — you are barely using your own build. All the tools to keep doing the thing you're doing are at your finger tips, but you refuse to explore them because you have convinced yourself that learning how a combo field works is for "elite players" only.

Yes, ArenaNet did break the build.  Bonus stealth duration removed, entirely, all three environments.  As if that wasn't enough, the stealth duration from Silent Scope has been reduced in PvP and WvW so far as to be virtually ineffective.  Those changes were implemented by ArenaNet, not the players.

Using combat skills to achieve stealth may well be viable whilst, well, in a combat situation, but they're not something which can be effectively deployed whilst you're trying to harvest nodes.  Either you can't perform the combat action, the combat action reveals you, and or the combat action interrupts the harvesting.  All of this leads to it taking longer to harvest.