ArenaNet have broken my Thief/Deadeye

[ASP.8093]

14 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

So, how do you benefit from Silent Scope whilst not using a Rifle?

(We've got distracted from the original point, which is the breakage of stealth in PvE and using it for farming, not for combat.  Whilst there have been suggestions on how to get, but not really maintain, stealth, they involve actions which cannot be carried out at the time time as harvesting.)

You dodge while in Rifle and then press the little Tilde key to swap to your other weapon set from time to time. And Rifle generates its own smoke field via Sniper's Cover.

Sahne already covered this for you in great detail above.

[Sahne.6950]

25 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

So, the weapons being used are Pistol+Dagger and Bow.  The stealth obtained from dodge roll comes from when you're using a Rifle, or did I miss something?

When running Bounding dodger trait your dodge is a combofinisher. If you do it in a smokefiled you will get 3s  stealth.

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Yes, ArenaNet did break the build.  Bonus stealth duration removed, entirely, all three environments.  As if that wasn't enough, the stealth duration from Silent Scope has been reduced in PvP and WvW so far as to be virtually ineffective.  Those changes were implemented by ArenaNet, not the players.

Using combat skills to achieve stealth may well be viable whilst, well, in a combat situation, but they're not something which can be effectively deployed whilst you're trying to harvest nodes.  Either you can't perform the combat action, the combat action reveals you, and or the combat action interrupts the harvesting.  All of this leads to it taking longer to harvest.
 

You are able to stack enough stealth while moving to have enough duration to Harvest. Or simply Drop shadowrefugee under u while harvesting... 

[voltaicbore.8012]

This thread is impressively long, given that it started with a legitimate gripe... that was unfortunately based on a near-complete lack of knowledge on how to run stealth on a thief. When you ask basic questions that demonstrate an inability to use out-of-combat combo fields and even weapon swapping, you don't really know enough about this game to accuse ANet of breaking anything.

If anything, the changes are working in a healthier direction. Previously, someone like you with absolutely minimal engagement with the combat system could gain long duration stealth with almost no effort. Now, you can still get decently long duration PvE stealth, but you actually have to have some idea of how the game works.

As for OP's original point about ANet not caring about the material farming playstyle, I'd say that's to be expected. ANet claims that WvW and sPvP are "pillars" of the game, yet both entire modes have languished for lack of attention. When they do get attention, it's often half-baked or outright poor quality. Given that the raw materials economy is working, I'm not surprised that the open-world material gathering lifestyle isn't on ANet's radar.

[Bunny.9834]

7 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

So, what you're saying is that a) ArenaNet will be deliberately unprofessionally and 2) despite offering nine Professions, there are really only three playable ones?

time and time again theyve proven that they dont care about the other ones. 

 

[Wolfshade.9251]

On 7/18/2022 at 2:57 PM, ASP.8093 said:

Shadow Arts Deadeye has lost some stealth uptime but gained even more initiative management and condi cleansing. It's still pretty good at Deadeye's typical "bunker busting" role in WvW roaming. If you're struggling with disengaging in outnumbered fights now that your stealth uptime has been reduced, try Shadow Portal alongside Shadowstep, and get in the habit of using Rifle 4 more — thieves have so many mobility and disengage options that thief players simply overlook most of them.

Thanks for the tip, but I mainly meant open world. I much preferred having longer stealth duration and increased movement speed in stealth when I was avoiding combat to gather nodes. Blinking in and out of stealth in areas full of mobs just won't do when my main objective is to gather the node and mount up right away.

For WVW I have a much simpler playstyle: avoid all player combat unless engaged by someone else. Indeed the increased condi cleanse and initiative regain helps when I'm playing agressively, but I much prefer to be peaceful when pip farming.

[MarkBecks.6453]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:10 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I still do my gathering and dailies on my thief.  Nothing changed for me, because I never ran SA to begin with.  Deadeye with Silent Scope has been enough for me to skip most enemies.  

Silent Scope in PVE is 3 seconds, that's where they killed the build in WvW, its 1 second now, and not even a patch note in site to justify it. I immediately felt the difference and became an easy target even for guards, but with a bit of tweaking and other options, I am still going to kill you, may take some time, but the haters going to still hate no matter what they do, their is always a workaround to make it more toxic, more fun, and more of an irritation to roamers, cya on the fields.

[jpsssss.7530]

SA rifle is still a thing. You just can't abuse infinite stealth any more. If anything its way better at 1v1s rn because you can get 3 initiative for dodging?

[Lighter.5631]

oh the slap came so fast, im only here for the lols

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:44 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

This thread is impressively long, given that it started with a legitimate gripe... that was unfortunately based on a near-complete lack of knowledge on how to run stealth on a thief.

Your claim about said players not knowing how to run stealth on a thief may have some merit, but the circumstances need better definition than the wide implication of your claim.  There may well be players (including me) who don't use stealth the way you and others think it can be used.  That does nothing to change the fact that ArenaNet moved the goal posts.

What I, and others, were doing was working.  We had learnt our skills/tactics and were running stealth how it worked for our needs.  We were using what tools we had available, and we were using them correctly for our needs.  ArenaNet came in, uninvited, rifled through our toolbox, stole some tools, and replaced others with tools that don't work the same way.  And somehow that's our fault?  Nope, sorry, it definitely is not.

The deviation from the legitimate gripe is down somewhat to suggestions about how to achieve longer stealth, generically.  Whilst helpful in some respects they don't actually replace the toolset which has been stolen/broken by ArenaNet.  Harvesting requires the character to remain static (for varying durations), during which time the stealth now drops more frequently.  The character either has to put up with the aggro preventing mounting, or put up with dodging around to avoid getting the aggro, or actually engaging in combat.  All of those delay the session, either through it taking longer to harvest the node, or longer to get to the next node (having been delayed by combat, and or through the inability to mount and move across the map more quickly).  To overcome the theft by ArenaNet of our tools, we need solutions which back the durations of stealth we previously had, or better.  Anything which interferes with the act of harvesting simply isn't a viable solution.  None of the solutions presented so far achieve that. 

 

I'm sure some folks will have benefitted from the advice on how additional stealth can be generated, and will be grateful for those suggestions, but it must be observed that the suggestions have not addressed the underlying problem, which is that the breaking of the build, regardless of any well-intentioned suggestions, ultimately increases the time to complete harvesting compared to before ArenaNet broke the build.

 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/24/2022 at 12:52 AM, jpsssss.7530 said:

SA rifle is still a thing. You just can't abuse infinite stealth any more. If anything its way better at 1v1s rn because you can get 3 initiative for dodging?

Missed the point by miles: 1v1 was not the scenario. 

 

'Abuse'?  It seems like only people who apparently hate thieves getting away without being killed who think that achieving 'permastealth' was an abuse of the abilities.  It's an opinion which entirely ignores that to actually achieve the effect, the character cannot do anything aggressive and cannot count towards claiming an objective.  The options were actually every well-balanced, between a choice of playing aggressively and playing passively (stealthily).  Using the skills as built was not abuse, it was sensible play.  Yet some folks were apparently ravaged with so much hate that they persuaded ArenaNet to come up with a solution to the thing they hated so much, then ArenaNet were incompetent enough to deploy blanket changes. Blanket changes meant they were deployed in PvE, where there was zero need for the change.  They were also incompetent in not only eliminating the stealth duration bonus, but also reducing the stealth gained from dodging.  All they needed to do to kowtow to the haters was eliminate the stealth duration bonus in WvW/PvP, to force Thieves to become visible more frequently.  Applying a 66% reduction in stealth duration from dodging was going far beyond what was needed.  ArenaNet took the the ball and threw it so far out of the ball park it's now bouncing around on a main road getting run over by passing vehicles.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/23/2022 at 4:13 PM, Wolfshade.9251 said:

Thanks for the tip, but I mainly meant open world. I much preferred having longer stealth duration and increased movement speed in stealth when I was avoiding combat to gather nodes. Blinking in and out of stealth in areas full of mobs just won't do when my main objective is to gather the node and mount up right away.

This is the point all the people supporting the change seem to be missing.

The need to stand still and not attract aggro is the point being missed by all the well-meaning people who come up with suggestions on the various ways to obtain stealth; none of which actually increase the stealth duration whilst static without the increased risk of aggro, and all of which require substantial changes in build and or play style.  The repeated implication being that it's the fault of the players who used the build to its strengths that they cannot now do what they previously could.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

What I, and others, were doing was working.  We had learnt our skills/tactics and were running stealth how it worked for our needs.  We were using what tools we had available, and we were using them correctly for our needs.

Disclaimer: my use of "your" here isn't just you as an individual, but the collective group of people who used stealth as you did.

Yes. Your needs. Unfortunately the game and stealth exists in a context that is - GASP - perhaps broader than just your needs.

This is not an attack on the legitimacy of what you used stealth for, and how you used it. You wanted long duration stealth with maybe 1-2 button presses, with no clue how to use any of the numerous, highly accessible gameplay tools thief enjoys to extend stealth uptime. Nothing wrong with desiring that, I mean that with no irony whatsoever.

I simply believe that it's well within ANet's purview to place a competing gameplay priority (wanting long duration stealth to require a minimal level of engagement with how GW2 works) above yours. I happen to agree with ANet that such a direction is worthy of pursuing at the expense of your preference. Again, I'm not saying that what you desire is inherently bad, but that the new direction (which happens to trample on your preference) is arguably better for the game.

1 hour ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Whilst helpful in some respects they don't actually replace the toolset which has been stolen/broken by ArenaNet.

This kind of sentiment is where you fully lose me. Broken? Sure. Many things are often broken by ANet, and many such breakages are painful and objectively bad. Warrior banners are a very recent and infamous example. The entire elementalist class has long suffered as well, and the only two options for ranger seems to be "trash tier" or "get pigeonholed HARD into a role that others perform better."

But "stolen"? A big nope from me on that. Short of putting money into the game explicitly on a promise from ANet that you will be able to do specific things indefinitely, I don't see how ANet nerfing 1-button stealths "stole" anything from you. You are free to be disappointed, to refuse to put any more time and money into the game, or to just take a break/quit based on dissatisfaction with the changes. But to act as if you were personally wronged because a game that is not personally designed and published for you is something I'm never going to agree with.

[ASP.8093]

All this talk about Anet reducing the efficiency of your bespoke perma-stealth gathering "build" is dead silly when the best way to improve your "build" is to just buy a Glyph of Reaping.

Edited July 25, 2022 by ASP.8093

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Just gonna leave this here

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:10 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

with no clue how to use any of the numerous, highly accessible gameplay tools thief enjoys to extend stealth uptime

Ahh, the 'no clue' argument which conveniently ignores the fact that the various tools referred to still available do not replace the loss of duration whilst still being able to carry out the harvesting actions; it may well be possible to be stealthed for long(-ish) durations by employing the various tools, but they all result in preventing or hindering harvesting.  Such observations make it look like the folks defending ArenaNet's incompetence are blind, stupid or simply ignoring the fact because it does nothing to support their argument/agenda. 

What has also conveniently been ignored is ArenaNet's incompetence in trying to address the claimed permastealth issue.  Firstly, permastealth cannot be maintained when a character engages in combat, and whilst permastealthed the character is not actively counting towards claiming an objective.  Facts the Anti-Permastealth Brigade seem to have conveniently ignored.  The only conclusion which comes about from these facts is that said APB folks are (were) simply getting their underwear in a twist because they couldn't kill a PC because it could escape.  Umm, but that's the fundamental defensive element of a stealth-based character; doesn't have high hit points, can't wear heavy armour, best defence therefore is not being hit in the first place!  Yet the APB don't want other players to be able to play to their character to its strengths?  A rather self-centered attitude, which impacts other players, unlike being able to use permastealth in PVE.   Secondly, there was no need for ArenaNet to break the build in PVE, yet they did.  The changes implemented were analogous to using a 12lb sledgehammer to place a pin in a watch strap, massive overkill.  Simply eliminating the duration extension in PvP/WvW would have been sufficient to achieve the aim.  Minimal change, limited to the relevant environments.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/25/2022 at 3:41 PM, ASP.8093 said:

All this talk about Anet reducing the efficiency of your bespoke perma-stealth gathering "build" is dead silly when the best way to improve your "build" is to just buy a Glyph of Reaping.

Sure, I actually already have a Glyph of Reaping, on the one harvesting tool it makes sense to have it on, the sickle.   Ore and tree nodes are rarely grouped together close enough to warrant such expense, at around 288 gold(!) each.  Spending 288 Gold on just one is costly enough, to suggest spending more than 570 gold on two more (for a pick and axe) is silly.  It would be sheer folly for the purchaser.  Definitely not the 'best' way to improve the build.

It would make considerably more sense to obtain a Glyph of the Timekeeper (33% chance to complete gathering instantly) which is so much cheaper (around 1/7th of the cost!) (or a harvesting tool, such as Glacial Logging Tool, which has one, especially if you can land one on offer in the Gem Store).

Even the Glyph of Industry (gathering completes 50% faster), at around 178 gold, is (about 38%) cheaper than a Glyph of Reaping and would be way more beneficial for picks and axes, than a Glyph of Reaping would be.  But that benefit only extends to the time it takes to gather, gathering time is not the only factor which needs to be considered.

 

Aside from the clear economic dis-benefit of simply purchasing a Glyph of Reaping, the application of the glyph might necessitate the removal of another, perhaps more beneficial glyph, such as one which rewards the character with more or better results.  Overall, there's more to be gained monetarily from harvesting better, or additional resources, than from harvesting more quickly.

 

[Edited for clarity/better grammar.]

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by OrangeHedgehog.6310
Clarity & grammar

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:22 AM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Just gonna leave this here

Cool vid, could be a great foundation for a tutorial, but has zero relevance to the matter in hand; that being ArenaNet's incompetence at deploying a change in PVE which had no need and thus no justification.

Great skills on the part of the Deadeye player, and wow, what a reward!  Kudos.  I guess that took many, many hours to earn; not just participation in the Tournament, but also in learning the character.  Oh, and likely a more expensive (lower latency) Internet connection than the one I've got.  Personally, I only ever go into PvP if the dailies are such that it will actually be easier/quicker to get the participation reward than others on offer.

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Cool vid, could be a great foundation for a tutorial, but has zero relevance to the matter in hand; that being ArenaNet's incompetence at deploying a change in PVE which had no need and thus no justification.

I think you missed the point of the vid. It demonstrates how spacing and chaining the various sources of stealth leads to high stealth uptime over long distances and long durations; even in a highly hostile environment a good thief can basically choose to remain either out of reach or invisible at their volition.

4 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

it may well be possible to be stealthed for long(-ish) durations by employing the various tools, but they all result in preventing or hindering harvesting.

What exactly do you mean by "preventing or hindering harvesting"?  With the sole exception of shadow refuge, gaining stealth on thief requires you to take an action that cannot be done at the same time as the actual gathering action, and even shadow refuge will lock you out of gathering until the short casting animation is done; it's just that shadow refuge's coverage is long enough that you can cast it, then gather before the stealth runs out. So are you basically just saying you don't like the reduced stealth duration on shadow refuge?

I think what most of us are suggesting is something like 

1. Finding a wall or corner a short ways off from the mobs + gathering node you're heading for, and facing into it, then
2. dropping smoke field, then
3. spamming heartseeker until initiative is out (should give you 10s of stealth, and it doesn't put you in combat so long as you don't hit a target; if you find this too difficult, you can easily just use a shortbow instead to blast shortbow 2 right at your feet), then
4. running towards your objective, swapping to rifle for a forward dodge roll, taking several steps forward (while still stealthed), and dodging forward again, then
5. pressing shadow meld if you're still a little ways out from your objective, then finally
6. dropping shadow refuge over yourself if you're going to run out of stealth before the gathering action is complete.
7. you can also throw in hide in shadows at any point to extend stealth duration during transit

Note that this procedure does not depend on cloak and dagger (which requires you to hit a target to gain stealth), or blinding powder (which applies blind in an area so it can put you in combat if you're not careful). If you have the movement speed signet equipped and the haste utility for swiftness, you can realistically save at least one ammo charge of shadow meld and shadow refuge for any mistakes you make.

At this point I actually want to meet you in game to get a better idea of why we don't see eye to eye on this. You may just be going for some rich nodes that I'm not aware of that don't give enough opportunity between step 3 and reaching the node. Even then, you still have shadow refuge to cover you while you gather. I'm on NA, please message me in game if you want to prove your point.

Edited August 5, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:38 PM, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

Your claim about said players not knowing how to run stealth on a thief may have some merit, but the circumstances need better definition than the wide implication of your claim.  There may well be players (including me) who don't use stealth the way you and others think it can be used.  That does nothing to change the fact that ArenaNet moved the goal posts.

What I, and others, were doing was working.  We had learnt our skills/tactics and were running stealth how it worked for our needs.  We were using what tools we had available, and we were using them correctly for our needs.  ArenaNet came in, uninvited, rifled through our toolbox, stole some tools, and replaced others with tools that don't work the same way.  And somehow that's our fault?  Nope, sorry, it definitely is not.

The deviation from the legitimate gripe is down somewhat to suggestions about how to achieve longer stealth, generically.  Whilst helpful in some respects they don't actually replace the toolset which has been stolen/broken by ArenaNet.  Harvesting requires the character to remain static (for varying durations), during which time the stealth now drops more frequently.  The character either has to put up with the aggro preventing mounting, or put up with dodging around to avoid getting the aggro, or actually engaging in combat.  All of those delay the session, either through it taking longer to harvest the node, or longer to get to the next node (having been delayed by combat, and or through the inability to mount and move across the map more quickly).  To overcome the theft by ArenaNet of our tools, we need solutions which back the durations of stealth we previously had, or better.  Anything which interferes with the act of harvesting simply isn't a viable solution.  None of the solutions presented so far achieve that. 

 

I'm sure some folks will have benefitted from the advice on how additional stealth can be generated, and will be grateful for those suggestions, but it must be observed that the suggestions have not addressed the underlying problem, which is that the breaking of the build, regardless of any well-intentioned suggestions, ultimately increases the time to complete harvesting compared to before ArenaNet broke the build.

 

This ^
I am perfectly fine with what the changes bring to being more active in maintaining stealth in pvp and wvw, but... No more winterberry run for me I suppose. 

The sheer agro, the sheer constant slowdown, the insta-spawn mobs that I evaded by using my Permastealth Deadeye, are after the changes now simply "Not worth my time" 

Those players downed that I stealthed and helped up in PvE, with the stealth duration was easy to get them up... right now... NOT worth my time, you're on your own bud.

And with the latest patch, the goal is clear: Remove active farmers, buff AFK farmers and give THEM more tools to farm even EASIER with auto pet attacks.

Again, I do NOT oppose the changes in Competitive, as a DE player in WvW I know how to work around that. I can STILL hide, I just need to do more things to maintain stealth... but it changed nothing there, it just destroyed a viable PvE farming build. 

I would rather see they revert shadow arts, and make changes to revealed, so that it is more dangerous to us in WvW. 

 

[ASP.8093]

14 hours ago, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

I am perfectly fine with what the changes bring to being more active in maintaining stealth in pvp and wvw, but... No more winterberry run for me I suppose.

I am able to do the full Winterberry circuit in like 4 minutes with a Raptor and a basic Crit Strikes Deadeye PvE build.

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 8/5/2022 at 4:42 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

What exactly do you mean by "preventing or hindering harvesting"? 

I mean that to have the stealth duration we had previously you now have to do all sorts of things, and be careful about doing them, lest you attract aggro and it interferes with your ability to quickly get to the next node.

I appreciate the time you took to put together that extensive list of actions.  And that's rather the point, it's extensive.  Until ArenaNet's incompetence broke the PvE build, there was no need whatsoever to have to go to such extreme lengths.  It simply was not necessary.  

 

I'm sure you've done your homework on/practised the suggestion, and know it works, but there are other factors.  Firstly, not everyone is equally adept.  We must all work within our abilities and those steps will not be within the abilities of everyone.  Secondly, it may also require the player to have to change a build they're familiar with (and they may not have equipment which is the same quality; that could lead to a host of needs and or make the character more vulnerable - especially whilst the player has to get used to unfamiliar skills. Thirdly, here's a lot of movement in there, just to get to a node, during which time your stealth is running out.  The majority of my movement is typically just getting from one node to the next, preferably on a mount to make it quicker. 

The key bit is, in PvE there was no need to remove the stealth duration bonus, yet that is what ArenaNet did.  If they could just be adult enough to own up, admit the mistake and fix the PvE build, this could just be an unpleasant and irritating moment history.

 

Yes, it would be good to meet up with someone in-game to go through options/skills.  Some tuition would be appreciated, it's simply too difficult learn skills just by observing someone else in GW2.  You need to be given build tips and demonstrations, and those tips need to be tailored to the specific character, including the skill set and tools (weapons) available to it.  I fear we won't be meeting though, I'm in Europe, so on the EU server.

 

 

 

[OrangeHedgehog.6310]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:33 AM, Tuna Bandit.3786 said:

I am perfectly fine with what the changes bring to being more active in maintaining stealth in pvp and wvw, but 

[...] 

Again, I do NOT oppose the changes in Competitive, [...] it just destroyed a viable PvE farming build. 

I would rather see they revert shadow arts, and make changes to revealed, so that it is more dangerous to us in WvW. 

 

I agree, about 95%.  The change required to kowtow to the Anti-Permastealth Brigade's complaints in WvW and PvP does not need to be so drastic.  All it really needed was for the stealth duration bonus to be removed in PvP and WvW.  That would have been sufficient to force the Thief to become revealed more frequently, and unable to achieve permastealth, achieving the additional vulnerability being called for.  And that's what they (the APB) are after, vulnerability so they can kill.  They're not satisfied with simply eliminating the threat by forcing the Thief away, or making it incapable for counting towards claiming an objective, their desire is actively to kill the character.  (A recent experience I had whilst farming Camps in WvW goes some way to demonstrate the APB attitude: another character decided they wanted to prevent me harvesting the nodes.  Fair enough, I'll leave.  Once it was clear I wasn't going to hang around, they could have stopped where they were.  Instead they actively chased me well into a different zone of the map.  This despite having deployed stealth skills multiple times, which should have given me at least a five plus seconds of stealth, and despite some rather random moves, they seemed to know exactly where I was moving.   Now, that could just be a very experienced player making some very good guesses, but it does not justify the continued assault and attacking when it was clear the character had given up on those nodes.  That behaviour was not the act of someone simply protecting their World's asset, it was the act of a sociopath, out purely for the kill.  I'm pleased to say I managed to get far enough away (for a change), and if in doing that they were raging or felt anger, I would take some satisfaction for denying them the kill.  Sadly, however, they probably simply took out their frustration on someone else.)

 

It bears pointing out, however, that the key defence of the Thief is not being able to absorb hits, it is simply not being hit in the first place.  The class is squishy, rightly so.  So the whole attack by ArenaNet on the Thief's key defence mechanism is just absurd.  Whilst I've got a few other character's with other professions, I only dabble in them, so perhaps someone else can answer this next question:

 

Did the changes ArenaNet introduce have equally debilitating impacts on all of the other professions, did they make all the other professions equally vulnerable?  (Was it an equalisation process?)

 

If not, were those professions already as vulnerable as the changes made to Thief made the Thief?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

3 hours ago, OrangeHedgehog.6310 said:

 

I agree, about 95%.  The change required to kowtow to the Anti-Permastealth Brigade's complaints in WvW and PvP does not need to be so drastic.  All it really needed was for the stealth duration bonus to be removed in PvP and WvW.  That would have been sufficient to force the Thief to become revealed more frequently, and unable to achieve permastealth, achieving the additional vulnerability being called for.  And that's what they (the APB) are after, vulnerability so they can kill.  They're not satisfied with simply eliminating the threat by forcing the Thief away, or making it incapable for counting towards claiming an objective, their desire is actively to kill the character.  (A recent experience I had whilst farming Camps in WvW goes some way to demonstrate the APB attitude: another character decided they wanted to prevent me harvesting the nodes.  Fair enough, I'll leave.  Once it was clear I wasn't going to hang around, they could have stopped where they were.  Instead they actively chased me well into a different zone of the map.  This despite having deployed stealth skills multiple times, which should have given me at least a five plus seconds of stealth, and despite some rather random moves, they seemed to know exactly where I was moving.   Now, that could just be a very experienced player making some very good guesses, but it does not justify the continued assault and attacking when it was clear the character had given up on those nodes.  That behaviour was not the act of someone simply protecting their World's asset, it was the act of a sociopath, out purely for the kill.  I'm pleased to say I managed to get far enough away (for a change), and if in doing that they were raging or felt anger, I would take some satisfaction for denying them the kill.  Sadly, however, they probably simply took out their frustration on someone else.)

 

It bears pointing out, however, that the key defence of the Thief is not being able to absorb hits, it is simply not being hit in the first place.  The class is squishy, rightly so.  So the whole attack by ArenaNet on the Thief's key defence mechanism is just absurd.  Whilst I've got a few other character's with other professions, I only dabble in them, so perhaps someone else can answer this next question:

 

Did the changes ArenaNet introduce have equally debilitating impacts on all of the other professions, did they make all the other professions equally vulnerable?  (Was it an equalisation process?)

 

If not, were those professions already as vulnerable as the changes made to Thief made the Thief?

If you really just want to run between nodes in WvW and not engage in any combat, try running this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAQRlNwEZbMLmJecT9vKA-zRJYjR1/ZkpqqXpqkPEB5fjqAA-e

It's a variation on my scouting/roaming build. I usually don't run minstrel anymore since the last patch made DE stupidly hard to catch by default, but if you don't play PvP modes much the minstrel gear will keep you alive. If someone chases you, target them as you run and alternate between dodging and rifle 4. Between antitoxin runes, Embrace of Shadows and Don't Stop you will cleanse up to 6 conditions per dodge and 2 conditions per rifle 4, so escaping from condition roamers isn't going to be a problem. Dodging gives you stealth and SA gives you gives you 3 initiative per stealth, which fuels your rifle 4 to build distance along with 3s superspeed per dodge to maintain that distance. Mount as soon as you can do so. Weapon swap if you need more endurance to dodge or if you get stuck with a long immob and can't dodge to cleanse. Portal is a last resort: If they keep chasing, place portal, run to the max port distance then portal back and run in the opposite direction again. Even the most infuriated roamers tend to give up chasing after one or two rounds of that. If someone really will not give up then run to your commander and use kneeling rifle 2 to spam immob while your zerg runs them over, then /dance on their corpse. 

[Fipmip.7219]

Imagine making a game and any attempt at balancing it spawns a five page thread about how you cant permastealth while doing nothing but harvest resource nodes, from an 18 month player that still doesnt know what combos are. You're asked if you're regarded as a lower class of player? like, yes dude. you are.  your playstyle should not be regarded when it comes to balance changes. at all.