The Concept of Rotations...

[Mungrul.9358]

...should not exist in Guild Wars 2.

When I took a break from the game in 2014, this concept was completely absent from Guild Wars 2.
I can't recall it being mentioned on the forums frequently, if at all, and I certainly don't remember seeing people talking about rotations in Map chat.
After returning in 2020, I've gradually noticed how pervasive and damaging to the game this concept now is.

I can't say for sure why it became popular, but I can certainly say it doesn't belong. DPS meters and checks certainly don't help, as these focus purely on optimising damage to the detriment of all other nuance.

Rotations are a throwback to more traditional MMOs where you have lots of skills with long cooldowns and reduced movement capabilities in combat.

Guild Wars 2 was built around movement and the idea that every skill on your bar is equivalent to a tool in a swiss army knife, each being designed to handle a particular combat situation.

One might even argue that this is why the Mesmer exists in the first place. Certainly in Guild Wars 1's PvP, the Mesmer existed to punish those who fell in to the predictable pattern of a rotation (although GW2's mesmer is far less focussed on direct interrupts and disruption, something I've always found disappointing).

Unfortunately, rotation gameplay has become so prevalent that now groups are able to completely ignore external influences, and concentrate on firing skills off in a specific order to better optimise results (be those results damage, control or support).
It's a very non-interactive form of gameplay that is able to ignore and bypass the game's active combat system by sheer brute force.

The original, core gameplay reward loop of observing the enemy and using the right skill at the right time has been completely bypassed by this concept, and a lot of systems have been bludgeoned in to supporting this instead of their original function.

And I think it's what's at the core of Warrior being in such a bad place now. Most of core Warrior's skills, traits and animations were designed around the original observe/react concept of gameplay, and none of them have been successfully adapted to suit rotation style gameplay (except for, ironically, banners pre-patch).

I also think it's why we have a balance team that don't necessarily understand Guild Wars 2. There are very few of the original team left at ArenaNet, and newer employees have quite often come from more traditional MMOs, with incorrect preconceptions of how Guild Wars 2 should work as an MMO.

 

There's also a nasty feedback loop in place now between streamers and the balance team, where rotation play has become cemented.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this incredibly disappointing, and I really don't like the idea of being good at GW2 simply being reduced to memorising a recipe list and repeating it ad nauseam.

I admit that you can still play the old way in most of the open world, and it's part of the reason I enjoy open world more than the rest of the game.

[Randulf.7614]

Rotations always existed, it’s just their use became more prevalent as fractals (2012), raids (2015/16 I forget) and more difficult content was added. It’s nothing to do with new development teams since rotations existed when the original devs were around too. The original combo fields partly incorporated this.

Spvp also utilised them, because players had to to succeed

The reason you see them more is the ingenuity of the player base to utilise them and adapt with each new elite, change and content. The fundamental combat hasn’t changed enough for this to be a new thing, it’s always been there to a variation in degree.

Without rotation play, there would be no skilled instances, no skilled competitive fights. And it’s a testament to the hidden depth  and versatility of the system that rotations can be found, made and adapted to different types of content. I’m not a user of them really in any significant way, but admire the imagination it takes players to discover them

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[ResJudicator.7916]

43 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Rotations always existed, it’s just their use became more prevalent as fractals (2012), raids (2015/16 I forget) and more difficult content was added. It’s nothing to do with new development teams since rotations existed when the original devs were around too. The original combo fields partly incorporated this.

Spvp also utilised them, because players had to to succeed

The reason you see them more is the ingenuity of the player base to utilise them and adapt with each new elite, change and content. The fundamental combat hasn’t changed enough for this to be a new thing, it’s always been there to a variation in degree.

Without rotation play, there would be no skilled instances, no skilled competitive fights. And it’s a testament to the hidden depth  and versatility of the system that rotations can be found, made and adapted to different types of content. I’m not a user of them really in any significant way, but admire the imagination it takes players to discover them

 

Rotations are more memorization than skill.

 

What OP is referencing is having more dynamic combat, where you need to use your skills intelligently to react to situations as they come up: blinding/dodging/aegising key attacks.  Putting up stab only to cover a key skill, or avoid incoming CC that you can't dodge.  Putting up the projectile block when a strong projectile is incoming.  Kiting/dodging to mitigate damage, etc.

 

Nowandays, you rarely, if ever, do most of the above in most PvE content (and it's getting that way in PvP, too).  You just memorize and go through your rotations to maintain boom uptime, stand at the boss's toes, and go ham. 

[A Hamster.2580]

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I really don't like the idea of being good at GW2 simply being reduced to memorising a recipe list and repeating it ad nauseam

 

1 hour ago, ResJudicator.7916 said:

Rotations are more memorization than skill.

 

Being good at GW2 is not 100% memorization. Execution and adaption of your rotation are more important. If being good at GW2 was simply memorizing a list of skills, there would not be such a large gap between dedicated players and casual players by a factor of more than 10x in some cases. Please allow me to explain for those that are curious.

 

Execution: You can queue up one skill at a time while a skill is currently being performed. Certain skills have priority (usually heals and hard cc) and can interrupt this queue which would mess up your rotation, so you usually cannot queue up all skills in a rotation list. By making use of the skill queue mechanic, you waste no time in between skills. Another mechanic is after-cast cancelling. Some skills have a long after-cast that would be a dps loss if you do not cancel it early by weapon stowing/weapon swapping/moving/using another skill that can cancel it. 

 

Adaptation: All rotation lists assume 100% up time of quickness and alacrity. In real pug raid/fractal scenarios, those are most likely not 100% so you will have to change up your rotation on the fly if you notice you are dropping quickness/alacrity. Maybe the player responsible for providing quickness/alacrity to you died? What would your rotation list look like then? There is no rotation list out there that assumes 0% quickness/alacrity so you will have to adapt. Every encounter will have mechanics that can force you to stop your rotation or you die/wipe the squad. How would you adapt your rotation if you anticipate an incoming mechanic?

 

And that is not all. I am most likely forgetting a few other things as I am more of a support/healer, not a "DPS player" in PVE end game content.

Edited July 2, 2022 by A Hamster.2580

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

...should not exist in Guild Wars 2.

When I took a break from the game in 2014, this concept was completely absent from Guild Wars 2.
I can't recall it being mentioned on the forums frequently, if at all, and I certainly don't remember seeing people talking about rotations in Map chat.
After returning in 2020, I've gradually noticed how pervasive and damaging to the game this concept now is.

I can't say for sure why it became popular, but I can certainly say it doesn't belong. DPS meters and checks certainly don't help, as these focus purely on optimising damage to the detriment of all other nuance.

Rotations are a throwback to more traditional MMOs where you have lots of skills with long cooldowns and reduced movement capabilities in combat.

Guild Wars 2 was built around movement and the idea that every skill on your bar is equivalent to a tool in a swiss army knife, each being designed to handle a particular combat situation.

One might even argue that this is why the Mesmer exists in the first place. Certainly in Guild Wars 1's PvP, the Mesmer existed to punish those who fell in to the predictable pattern of a rotation (although GW2's mesmer is far less focussed on direct interrupts and disruption, something I've always found disappointing).

Unfortunately, rotation gameplay has become so prevalent that now groups are able to completely ignore external influences, and concentrate on firing skills off in a specific order to better optimise results (be those results damage, control or support).
It's a very non-interactive form of gameplay that is able to ignore and bypass the game's active combat system by sheer brute force.

The original, core gameplay reward loop of observing the enemy and using the right skill at the right time has been completely bypassed by this concept, and a lot of systems have been bludgeoned in to supporting this instead of their original function.

And I think it's what's at the core of Warrior being in such a bad place now. Most of core Warrior's skills, traits and animations were designed around the original observe/react concept of gameplay, and none of them have been successfully adapted to suit rotation style gameplay (except for, ironically, banners pre-patch).

I also think it's why we have a balance team that don't necessarily understand Guild Wars 2. There are very few of the original team left at ArenaNet, and newer employees have quite often come from more traditional MMOs, with incorrect preconceptions of how Guild Wars 2 should work as an MMO.

 

There's also a nasty feedback loop in place now between streamers and the balance team, where rotation play has become cemented.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this incredibly disappointing, and I really don't like the idea of being good at GW2 simply being reduced to memorising a recipe list and repeating it ad nauseam.

I admit that you can still play the old way in most of the open world, and it's part of the reason I enjoy open world more than the rest of the game.

The rotation is just a natural consequence of prioritizing skills.  The issue is the addition of support and healing roles.  They obviate the need for the action elements while magnifying damage output for the group.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

...should not exist in Guild Wars 2.

Do you have anything concrete to back up why they should not exist despite they having existed since the game launched back in 2012?

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

When I took a break from the game in 2014, this concept was completely absent from Guild Wars 2.

False.  It just wasn't as widespread as there being a singular optimal rotation.  Rotations still very much existed.  Someone engaging an enemy by using their skills and abilities in order from 1-9, followed by using them off cool down, is still a rotation.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I can't recall it being mentioned on the forums frequently, if at all, and I certainly don't remember seeing people talking about rotations in Map chat

The forums represent a small percentage of players as does what you see in map chat.  I don't see many people speaking about farming LS3 currencies on the forums or map chat but you can be certain that a lot of players are still doing just that.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I've gradually noticed how pervasive and damaging to the game this concept now is

Do you have any evidence to back this?

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I can certainly say it doesn't belong.

That's your opinion.  Based on how the devs have been doing balances, I don't believe they'd side with you.  Unless you have posts where they state they don't like them; other, the best you can do is say that they're indifferent.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Guild Wars 2 was built around movement and the idea that every skill on your bar is equivalent to a tool in a swiss army knife,

No it wasn't and it certainly wasn't played that way.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Rotations are a throwback to more traditional MMOs where you have lots of skills with long cooldowns and reduced movement capabilities in combat.

It's not really a throwback.  When you have a bunch of skills/abilities, there tends to be an optimal way to use them.  You'll see this in a lot of MMOs and GW2 happens to be an MMO.  You can also see this in some single player games as well.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

groups are able to completely ignore external influences

External influences?  You mean wife aggro became more of an issue when people started doing more rotations? 🙂

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

It's a very non-interactive form of gameplay that is able to ignore and bypass the game's active combat system by sheer brute force.

If you've done strikes, fractals, raids, and so on then you'd know that this isn't anywhere close to being true.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

The original, core gameplay reward loop of observing the enemy and using the right skill at the right time has been completely bypassed by this concept, and a lot of systems have been bludgeoned in to supporting this instead of their original function.

This was never the function.  The best you could probably do is with abilities that stunned but this whole "using the right skills as the right time" was never at the scale that you appear to be implying.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Most of core Warrior's skills, traits and animations were designed around the original observe/react concept of gameplay

Do you have any source/evidence that most were this way?

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

There are very few of the original team left at ArenaNet, and newer employees have quite often come from more traditional MMOs, with incorrect preconceptions of how Guild Wars 2 should work as an MMO

Or you have some people that played for a couple years, took a massive break for 6 years, and believe they know what the game should or shouldn't be better than the devs or those playing since launch.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

GW2 simply being reduced to memorising a recipe list and repeating it ad nauseam.

It's not or rather you're oversimplifying it.

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I admit that you can still play the old way in most of the open world

You can still play the "old way", whatever you think that's supposed to be, in any content.  You just have to find others that share in the desire to play in whatever way that is.  If you have difficulties finding those players then you're most likely in the minority.

Edited July 2, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Saharo.5381]

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I can't say for sure why it became popular, but I can certainly say it doesn't belong. DPS meters and checks certainly don't help, as these focus purely on optimising damage to the detriment of all other nuance.

Buddy. A majority of the playerbase sticks to casual, open world content. Where auto attacking gets the job done and roll dodging is optional.

You only see people genuinely discussing and utilizing rotations in the harder, end game content like raids/strikes/T4 fractals or PvP. Where damage output matters. Anyone babbling in map chat about it in open world is just talking to the wind/the one or two people who actually know what they're saying, 90% of the people reading don't give a hoot.

 

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Unfortunately, rotation gameplay has become so prevalent that now groups are able to completely ignore external influences, and concentrate on firing skills off in a specific order to better optimise results (be those results damage, control or support).
It's a very non-interactive form of gameplay that is able to ignore and bypass the game's active combat system by sheer brute force.

Maybe the easy strikes let you button mash through your rotation. Nothing else in the content I mentioned really allows for that. Ignore a mechanic on a raid boss trying to perfectly execute your rotation and you will wipe the entire squad. PvP is literally adapt or die... you absolutely have to read the animations of your opponent(s) to land ANY meaningful part of your rotation, heck even reading your own teammates animations is critical.

 

2 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

I admit that you can still play the old way in most of the open world, and it's part of the reason I enjoy open world more than the rest of the game.

Who's forcing you to optimize skills/dmg/rotation in open world? People in open world do whatever tf they want and no one cares at all.

[Labjax.2465]

I don't think there's any avoiding rotations in the kind of content that PvE bosses are, especially instanced. Bosses are designed to be a more linear experience, with phases and DPS checks and the like, so the response naturally becomes more rote: find the optimal rotation.

In other words, you can only be as situationally responsive as the situation gives you opportunities to be.

So as long as the game has a significant component for that, it's going to be part of the game and I'm pretty sure that kind of play and design goes back to dungeons and open world bosses like Tequatl.

That said, I love the bits of situational use and opportunity that are in GW2. I don't want to give the impression I don't care about it. But I'm not sure what can be done about it, while the standard kind of MMO encounters are such a part of the game and have been for so long. Mind you, I'm not saying the flavor of the encounters is bog standard, just that the underlying design pattern is pretty much the same as other games, probably because it works and it's consistent: boss does X during Y phase until the next phase and then they do Z and so on, and you have a limited amount of time to complete the encounter.

They could try to bake in more dynamic stuff, but I'm not sure what that would look like off-hand and if it's worth the loss in predictability from the standpoint of those who show up for a consistent experience.

[Sobx.1758]

3 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

...should not exist in Guild Wars 2.

When I took a break from the game in 2014, this concept was completely absent from Guild Wars 2.
I can't recall it being mentioned on the forums frequently, if at all, and I certainly don't remember seeing people talking about rotations in Map chat.
After returning in 2020, I've gradually noticed how pervasive and damaging to the game this concept now is.

I can't say for sure why it became popular, but I can certainly say it doesn't belong. DPS meters and checks certainly don't help, as these focus purely on optimising damage to the detriment of all other nuance.

Rotations are a throwback to more traditional MMOs where you have lots of skills with long cooldowns and reduced movement capabilities in combat.

Guild Wars 2 was built around movement and the idea that every skill on your bar is equivalent to a tool in a swiss army knife, each being designed to handle a particular combat situation.

One might even argue that this is why the Mesmer exists in the first place. Certainly in Guild Wars 1's PvP, the Mesmer existed to punish those who fell in to the predictable pattern of a rotation (although GW2's mesmer is far less focussed on direct interrupts and disruption, something I've always found disappointing).

Unfortunately, rotation gameplay has become so prevalent that now groups are able to completely ignore external influences, and concentrate on firing skills off in a specific order to better optimise results (be those results damage, control or support).
It's a very non-interactive form of gameplay that is able to ignore and bypass the game's active combat system by sheer brute force.

The original, core gameplay reward loop of observing the enemy and using the right skill at the right time has been completely bypassed by this concept, and a lot of systems have been bludgeoned in to supporting this instead of their original function.

And I think it's what's at the core of Warrior being in such a bad place now. Most of core Warrior's skills, traits and animations were designed around the original observe/react concept of gameplay, and none of them have been successfully adapted to suit rotation style gameplay (except for, ironically, banners pre-patch).

I also think it's why we have a balance team that don't necessarily understand Guild Wars 2. There are very few of the original team left at ArenaNet, and newer employees have quite often come from more traditional MMOs, with incorrect preconceptions of how Guild Wars 2 should work as an MMO.

 

There's also a nasty feedback loop in place now between streamers and the balance team, where rotation play has become cemented.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this incredibly disappointing, and I really don't like the idea of being good at GW2 simply being reduced to memorising a recipe list and repeating it ad nauseam.

I admit that you can still play the old way in most of the open world, and it's part of the reason I enjoy open world more than the rest of the game.

Nonsense. Optimal skill use was always a thing, which means the rotations always existed for those who wanted to experiment with them. Probably the only reason you're even talking about it is because we have sites where other players share their rotations with others. And probably the only reason you think it wasn't a thing in the past is... because you didn't know/understand it exists while you were going through core. Skill priority is nothing new and it was always a thing in gw2, basically because of how the numbers work.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Asum.4960]

It depends on how you define rotation, plus rotations are not created equal. 

 

As long as all your skills aren't completely homogenized to all do the same thing and it doesn't matter what buttons you press or in what order, or all your skills being so bad that outside just autoattacking and maybe one or two buttons being worth pressing (which imo is terribly unfun gameplay), you'll always have a "rotation" in some shape or form, and that's not inherently a bad thing. 

 

Nice skill combinations and priorities to weave together which loop/line up nicely, but can also be adapted on the fly when needed are imo the most fun to play with - and I don't see anything wrong with that or how they don't belong in GW2. 

 

7 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Guild Wars 2 was built around movement and the idea that every skill on your bar is equivalent to a tool in a swiss army knife, each being designed to handle a particular combat situation.

Thief is pretty much the epitome of that design, where through the Initiative system in place of CD's you can truly decide what the best button to press in any situation is - and personally I find it absolutely awful. 

99% of the time the best button to press in GW2 is the knife, the one doing the most damage, so all you end up doing is spamming that one button + Auto Attack, and it's pretty much ruined Thief for me.

 

Conversely, something like good ol' DH where you set up a burst window with Spear of Justice via the Trait Big Game Hunter damage buff, into your high damaging skills, was a satisfying, easy to learn and understand but also relatively forgiving and adaptable loop of skills (aka rotation) that's fun to play with. 

While a similar burst rotation like Soulbeast with fairly tight timings that completely screw you if you accidentally cancel cast something like Whirling Defense because of spotty boon uptimes or the need to move for mechanics personally weren't all that fun. 

 

Rotations aren't inherently good or bad, it all depends on how they are executed, how naturally they flow, how well they loop and how adaptable they are in the moment. 

 

With recent "balance" changes I actually think Anet indeed seems to move away from or simplify rotations in an attempt to lower the skill floor, and imo it's actively making the game worse since in the process they are also tearing down the ceiling.

The thing is, there always were low intensity options, meta builds and rotations always were able to be adapted with some game knowledge and understanding of the builds via sometimes stripping out over half of the complexity or rotation for maybe just a 500-1000 DPS loss on ~40k DPS builds, it didn't matter. The complicated rotations never were the issue, but rather that most players didn't understand the how and why they were that way in the first place, and how to adapt them to their needs and capabilities.

  

Anet's seeming effort now to make those simplified rotations (Auto Attack + ~2 buttons to press on CD seems to become the trend) the peak performance on more and more specs runs the very high risk of dismantling that entirely optional fun on the top end for some to push performance, that kept some players engaged with the game since almost a decade before. 

Especially since it also means every build is starting to play the same, rather than unique and interesting burst windows, Trait interactions and skill combinations on profession to profession, everything seems to slowly move into that direction of AA + occasional button press on CD, while passively spamming out AoE Boons - which I think will be horrible for the game longterm. 

 

TL;DR: 

Rotations aren't created equal, nor inherently good or bad. Their merit entirely depends on how fun, unique and adaptable they are on an individual basis. Dismantling them for a skill bar as swiss army knife situation won't lead to fun gameplay where you got all those unique situational tools to constantly use, but rather largely to carrying around a really heavy non-ergonomic knife with a bunch of crap attached that you'll almost never use, and get bored of really quickly. 

There is a reason for how these weapons and classes were originally designed (for which rotations were always a thing), and why they kept players engaged and praising the game's combat system for almost decade so far.

/E: And also why Utility skills were explicitly designed as separate, independent thing, so weapons could focus on providing those cohesive skill rotations (and there is a separate issue here where Anet designed more and more Utilities as just additional Weapon skills in place of too situational and underused actual Weapon skills that didn't fit into the general gameplay loop/rotation, rather than reworking those).

Edited July 2, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Mungrul.9358]

I think you and I essentially agree Asum.

This post was brought about through watching the community chase the requirement for a single player to be able to maintain 100% uptime on one or more boons, and the development team obliging that demand.

I feel we've now reached a stage where through giving ever profession the ability to maintain 100% uptime in one or more boons, we've bypassed very specific pressure points.

If you can happily ignore CC because you or someone on your team is always providing stability, all those skills and abilities (that now do no damage in PvP) become irrelevant.

And that's MASSIVELY damaging to the game, dramatically reducing build variety and avenues of attack.

 

Also note that I'm not referring to combos when I say rotations. Combos are fantastic, and should be more central to the gameplay. There's not that many games out there that provide such interesting opportunities through combining the effects of different skills, and it's always a thrill when I play something that allows for this.

Divinity: Original Sin's combined elemental effects, Team Fortress 2's classic Medic+Heavy combo, immersive sims as a whole, all offer massively compelling gameplay that allows for unique player expression, and this should be something that ANet are rightfully proud of and focus on more than boon uptime.

The game supports this and over the years, it seems to have become less accessible and important.

[yavi.3105]

I absolutely disagree with making the whole game essentialy an exercise in reaction time. Especially based on a horribly bad graphic cue of model animation (unless perhaps the model is the size of the Shatterer or Tequatl, but that is still meh). In core the game was a complete mess of "every man roll for themseleves" and button mashing. And, as people pointed, it still had rotation, you just used them in windows of opportunity, making the whole thing way more twitchy and less planned.

I hope they never ever go back there.

[Puck.3697]

11 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

should not exist in Guild Wars 2.

When I took a break from the game in 2014, this concept was completely absent from Guild Wars 2.
I can't recall it being mentioned on the forums frequently, if at all, and I certainly don't remember seeing people talking about rotations in Map chat.
After returning in 2020, I've gradually noticed how pervasive and damaging to the game this concept now 

Your mistaking "didn't exist" was "wasn't known" 

Information wasn't as wide spread as it is today in 2014. Ofcourse rotations existed in 2014 gw2. The people who knew rotations simply were fewer. And there was less known thoerycraftera giving out the information. 

11 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Guild Wars 2 was built around movement and the idea that every skill on your bar is equivalent to a tool in a swiss army knife, each being designed to handle a particular combat situation.

One might even argue that this is why the Mesmer exists in the first place. Certainly in Guild Wars 1's PvP, the Mesmer existed to punish those who fell in to the predictable pattern of a rotation (although GW2's mesmer is far less focussed on direct interrupts and disruption, something I've always found disappointing).

Unfortunately, rotation gameplay has become so prevalent that now groups are able to completely ignore external influences, and concentrate on firing skills off in a specific order to better optimise results (be those results damage, control or support).
It's a very non-interactive form of gameplay that is able to ignore and bypass the game's active combat system by sheer brute force.

Incorrect. People just weren't aware what damage they were outputting so there was a lack of understanding to how much dps u were supposed to do. 

When the game lacks the tools to allow you to evaluate dps, you cant compare. Without the ability to collect data a playerbase cannot determine what rotation is correct. 

There's a difference between this.

Rotations have always existed. A certain set up build and a correct input of abilities in the right order to achieve the highest dps has always existed. 

The idea you think you can remove rotations from a game is whack. 

You can't. 

Their fundamentally built into any design that has abilities. Full stop. 

There not removable. They were always here. People just didn't have data to figure then out. 

If anet removed all damage meters from gw2. Removed the golem. Removed any ability to log fights or physically see dps. 

Rotations wouldn't be used again. 

You can't create a rotation if you don't have data, because u ultimately need the dps total from every combination to figure out which one is highest.

Your looking at the situation incorrectly. 

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Cindaria.6379]

Of course it is okay to have spells which works well together like combos. But the most annoying part in the game are raiders. They expect you to play the meta builds and tells you that much to learn rotations. I was told to train at the golem until I remember my fingers moving without thinking.

Unfortunately Anet orientates to that benchmarks and nerf classes, which are in open world worse.

[Saharo.5381]

3 hours ago, Cindaria.6379 said:

But the most annoying part in the game are raiders. They expect you to play the meta builds and tells you that much to learn rotations. I was told to train at the golem until I remember my fingers moving without thinking.

Raiders are the only people who are going to check & enforce rotation performance. Because if you don't perform your role properly you drag down 9 other people with you. You can find your own group of more relaxed people to play with, but if you're LFGing people are usually going to expect you to pull your weight. Not necessarily hit the benchmark numbers, but at least meet base expectations.

I agree that Anet craps on open world play when they nerf things that are "problematic" in niche situations of other game modes and carry it across. Like why take away open world Soulbeast (where I'm sure 80%+ of SB mains live) pet swap because of a PvP/WvW issue?

[Wintermute.5408]

Some classes should have rotations, other should offer more simplistic approach. In vanilla pretty much every class was busy spamming AA, and it sucked massive kitten.

[DaFishBob.6518]

Oh I think I get what you mean now, you don't like this game feeling like a keyboard lesson while fighting a boss. Yeah neither do I, except in Bell Choir during Wintersday. Though I'd really appreciate if something could also be done to actually make it possible to see the things we need to react to over all the visual effects that keep getting thrown at us with every update.

[Cindaria.6379]

3 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

Raiders are the only people who are going to check & enforce rotation performance.

And then they find something 1% of all player (or less) can master. And for the small amount EVERYONE get nerfed. And besides this, some of them annoy others what and how to play, even in fractals or metas in the open world. Thats so annoying.

[Astralporing.1957]

In order to remove concept of rotations from the game, you'd have to make it so the same group of skills will always produce the same effect regardless of the order they will be used. Which means you need to remove all skill interactions. No additional damage for blasting fields, no skills that give you short-time damage bonuses (in which window you might need to use all your biggest damage skills), etc. Notice, that in this case weapon swap needs to be considered a skill - so, you probably would need to remove weapon swap cooldown, remove weapon swap in combat, or disincentivize it in such a way that weapon swapping just to use your high damage skills from the other weapon set (and switch back) would become a bad idea.

All that can be done. It would require some massive changes to the whole combat system however.

Edit: of, of course, how could i forget, everything i said about weapon swap would apply equally to all other effects that simulate it, so ele attunements, engi kits, ele weapon conjures, or FB tomes.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Einsof.1457]

rotations are only a thing on the golem training dummy. in the real fights, there are much more things going on. no one is perfect. 

[Vladking.4271]

Not

Edited July 3, 2022 by Vladking.4271

[Ascency.3580]

you can always play a mech. no rotation there.

jokes aside. u cant expect for rotations to not exist since ppl will inevitably go for max efficiency, be it gold farming, buildcrafting and same with 'rotations'. for them to not exist every class would have to be designed same way rifle mech is pretty much.

there is ofc the argument that rotation is not set in stone and whatnot. in reality for the most part it just boils down to skill prioritization, which when performed correctly will lead to there becoming a rotation. but realistically, as has been said here already during an actuall fight u will often times not be able to do the "rotation" and its the knowledge of the class and understanding of skill prioritization that will allow u to adapt on the fly and get good results as oposed to trying to blindly folow any set skill order.

[Serephen.3420]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:44 AM, mythical.6315 said:

Do you have anything concrete to back up why they should not exist despite they having existed since the game launched back in 2012?

False.  It just wasn't as widespread as there being a singular optimal rotation.  Rotations still very much existed.  Someone engaging an enemy by using their skills and abilities in order from 1-9, followed by using them off cool down, is still a rotation.

The forums represent a small percentage of players as does what you see in map chat.  I don't see many people speaking about farming LS3 currencies on the forums or map chat but you can be certain that a lot of players are still doing just that.

Do you have any evidence to back this?

That's your opinion.  Based on how the devs have been doing balances, I don't believe they'd side with you.  Unless you have posts where they state they don't like them; other, the best you can do is say that they're indifferent.

No it wasn't and it certainly wasn't played that way.

It's not really a throwback.  When you have a bunch of skills/abilities, there tends to be an optimal way to use them.  You'll see this in a lot of MMOs and GW2 happens to be an MMO.  You can also see this in some single player games as well.

External influences?  You mean wife aggro became more of an issue when people started doing more rotations? 🙂

If you've done strikes, fractals, raids, and so on then you'd know that this isn't anywhere close to being true.

This was never the function.  The best you could probably do is with abilities that stunned but this whole "using the right skills as the right time" was never at the scale that you appear to be implying.

Do you have any source/evidence that most were this way?

Or you have some people that played for a couple years, took a massive break for 6 years, and believe they know what the game should or shouldn't be better than the devs or those playing since launch.

It's not or rather you're oversimplifying it.

You can still play the "old way", whatever you think that's supposed to be, in any content.  You just have to find others that share in the desire to play in whatever way that is.  If you have difficulties finding those players then you're most likely in the minority.

Golden response 

[Padrion.7382]

Well, rotations are kind of an inevitable result of predictable enemy behavior. If encounters aren't designed to be dynamic, fix patterns to resolve them will always emerge. And a lot of people seem to like it that way...

[Rishnock.6230]

Mathematically, given a set of N possible actions you can take, each action only being able to be used once every x_i seconds, and each action contributing to damage throughput, there MUST exist an optimum sequence of actions that will maximize DPS throughput. 

 

Even if every action does exactly the same damage, a rotation will form - it will just be auto-attack indefinitely. This, however, is boring gameplay. 

 

The goal of all combat is to reduce the enemy's health to 0. The only way to optimize this on a fundamental level is to maximize throughout.

 

I do not wish to insult you. Your opinion and your feelings are valid, and content should absolutely focus on non-damage elements. But your sentiment is fundamentally lacking a basis in the reality of any combat RPG. You cannot simply wish that 2+2 become 3.