The main takeaway message from these 25-30k dps auto attack builds

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

These kinds of 1-2 button builds are nothing new and have existed before with firebrand, power rev, deadeye, reaper etc. The main takeaway should be that dumbing down classes has done nothing to make challenging content easier for new and casual players. Some people are still doing 5-10k dps on these builds because they are struggling with other parts of combat. They arent able to attack and move at the same time, they dont realize when their projectile attacks are obstructed or out of range, they dont dodge big telegraphed attacks and spend a lot of time in downstate, they dont know or dont care to gear their character properly, and the list goes on.

So no, dumbing down combat has done nothing to fulfill anets vision of making the game more accessible and should never be an excuse for the current design philosophy.

[Bast.7253]

What are the new builds that are auto attack? I’m not up to date. Assuming mechanist is one of them? 
 

I saw people complaining about virtuoso being easy but I haven’t attempted any benchmarks on it. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Bast.7253

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Bast.7253 said:

What are the new builds that are auto attack? I’m not up to date. Assuming mechanist isn’t one of them? 
 

I saw people complaining about virtuoso being easy but I haven’t attempted any benchmarks on it. 

Mech, virtuoso, harbinger are the main 3 that came with EoD. Rifle mech is the latest fotm

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

You say this, but knowing which builds are low intensity has done wonders for my carpal tunnel.  

[Apolo.5942]

Have no issue with an auto attack build, im playing an mmo not the piano.

[mythical.6315]

4 minutes ago, Apolo.5942 said:

Have no issue with an auto attack build, im playing an mmo not the piano.

This must be your first MMO. 

[Freya.9075]

I think it’s good they add options for players that have issues with rotations or pressing many buttons at once for reasons like illnesses. Or if they just want to play relaxed and still contribute with dps. You can choose to do them or choose to do other builds where you need to play piano. It’s a choice and more choices are good. 
 

Besides some of them are actually fun to play like bomb mechanist with asura cause of the animations they do. there is something about watching my little rat bend down to place the bomb every second and even running around and the mobs runs after you and die to something looking like exploding farts.

[Rysdude.3824]

I dont have an issue with auto attack doing decent DPS, but pulling off rotations should always be better numbers.

[Tails.9372]

35 minutes ago, Rysdude.3824 said:

I dont have an issue with auto attack doing decent DPS, but pulling off rotations should always be better numbers.

Which it did, the rifle AA build everyone complained about only had around 25k dps while the versions which "pulled off rotations" were around 37k.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Linken.6345]

2 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Which it did, the rifle AA build everyone complained about only had around 25k dps while the versions which "pulled off rotations" were around 37k.

Only 25k what a world you must live in.

[Rhingeim.3974]

Not true. 

Just a simple example. 

Let's take two builds, one with simple rotation/AA LI, another with pretty complex rotation, that needs to be performed close to perfection to dish out damage or boon support. 

Than we put these builds into similar environment- mechanics heavy raid/strike etc. Where you not only need to do your class thing, but pay attention for mechanics, boss attacks etc. 

Complex build basically 2x the amount of attention that's required from player - to keep track on rotation and situation awareness. LI build often leave player with situation awareness. 

Real example - Mechanist was the exact class, who open dungeons/strikes for me despite being the less played character from my 3 level 80 toons. And I will use mechanist for this instead of my necromancer and renegade, because performing rotations and keep situation awareness to mechanics is not what I can do simultaneously. At the end - I don't want to fight with my own spec

[Tails.9372]

24 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Only 25k what a world you must live in.

A world where other selfish pure dps LI builds have A: more damage (e.g.: P/P DE is at 28k) and B: significantly better self support (both in regards to self (and even group) boon application and re-sustain).

Edited July 3, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

6 hours ago, Rhingeim.3974 said:

And I will use mechanist for this instead of my necromancer and renegade, because performing rotations and keep situation awareness to mechanics is not what I can do simultaneously. At the end - I don't want to fight with my own spec

This is exactly my point. Players who cant simultaneously attack and look at mechanics arent going to perform well regardless of how easy their build is.

[Einsof.1457]

18 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

These kinds of 1-2 button builds are nothing new and have existed before with firebrand, power rev, deadeye, reaper etc. The main takeaway should be that dumbing down classes has done nothing to make challenging content easier for new and casual players. Some people are still doing 5-10k dps on these builds because they are struggling with other parts of combat. They arent able to attack and move at the same time, they dont realize when their projectile attacks are obstructed or out of range, they dont dodge big telegraphed attacks and spend a lot of time in downstate, they dont know or dont care to gear their character properly, and the list goes on.

So no, dumbing down combat has done nothing to fulfill anets vision of making the game more accessible and should never be an excuse for the current design philosophy.

Valid point. Many players are clickers which means they can't dodge bad stuff in higher end content. I've always been a proponent of anet permanently turning off clicking on the action bar for everyone for this reason. 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Rhingeim.3974]

37 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

This is exactly my point. Players who cant simultaneously attack and look at mechanics arent going to perform well regardless of how easy their build is.

But I'm saying that mechanist easy build allow me to perform well, and definitely better than scourge for example, because I often mess up with sand shade placements and tracking skill CD, especially in mechanics heavy encounters. Even energy upkeep tracking on revenant is hard enough for me. Since I can build my mech to provide boons on skill usage, remap them on buttons close to movements inputs and fire them on CD to provide group supports while continuing firing from rifle on the move without needs of "I need to place shade there... O f**k its went behind me because of messed up controls"

Easy builds just allows to pull weight for groups with lower stress for players, and a lot of players really prefer this type of gameplay because of personal taste or some disabilities. 

 

Thing is, GW2 has some sort of gaps between content. Minion necro is godlike through leveling and stories, and often kicked on site in more challenging content, so often it's about not only improving your skills, builds and gear, but forget and re-learn you profession from scratch. Some people like this, some don't. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

52 minutes ago, Rhingeim.3974 said:

But I'm saying that mechanist easy build allow me to perform well, and definitely better than scourge for example, because I often mess up with sand shade placements and tracking skill CD, especially in mechanics heavy encounters. Even energy upkeep tracking on revenant is hard enough for me. Since I can build my mech to provide boons on skill usage, remap them on buttons close to movements inputs and fire them on CD to provide group supports while continuing firing from rifle on the move without needs of "I need to place shade there... O f**k its went behind me because of messed up controls"

Easy builds just allows to pull weight for groups with lower stress for players, and a lot of players really prefer this type of gameplay because of personal taste or some disabilities. 

 

Thing is, GW2 has some sort of gaps between content. Minion necro is godlike through leveling and stories, and often kicked on site in more challenging content, so often it's about not only improving your skills, builds and gear, but forget and re-learn you profession from scratch. Some people like this, some don't. 

Let me explain it in a different way. Take a below average player and give them a 30k auto attack dps build like power rev or mace mech. Then put them in a strike, or fractal, or world meta event. They arent going to be doing 30k dps, they will be doing maybe 10k at most. Its not the complexity of classes and their rotation that is the main hurdle for players and their performance. The fundamentals of movement, positioning, and paying attention to mechanics is what separates average from good players. Anets whole idea that making classes easier and less complex is not making the game any more accessible outside of a very small minority of players with physical or cognitive limitations. And for those players there have always been builds like that. You dont need to design entire classes that force that playstyle.

[Ashen.2907]

13 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

These kinds of 1-2 button builds are nothing new and have existed before with firebrand, power rev, deadeye, reaper etc. The main takeaway should be that dumbing down classes has done nothing to make challenging content easier for new and casual players. Some people are still doing 5-10k dps on these builds because they are struggling with other parts of combat. They arent able to attack and move at the same time, they dont realize when their projectile attacks are obstructed or out of range, they dont dodge big telegraphed attacks and spend a lot of time in downstate, they dont know or dont care to gear their character properly, and the list goes on.

So no, dumbing down combat has done nothing to fulfill anets vision of making the game more accessible and should never be an excuse for the current design philosophy.

The fact, and I agree with you there, that many or even most players have not been positively impacted by dumbing down does not mean that it has not made the game more accessible. The fact, and it is a fact, that SOME people have taken to using some of the newer dumbed down options to achieve greater results means that they have made the game more accessible. The fact that only a portion of the player base takes advantage of increased accessibility doesnt mean that the game is not more accessible.

[Gibson.4036]

13 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

These kinds of 1-2 button builds are nothing new and have existed before with firebrand, power rev, deadeye, reaper etc. The main takeaway should be that dumbing down classes has done nothing to make challenging content easier for new and casual players. Some people are still doing 5-10k dps on these builds because they are struggling with other parts of combat. They arent able to attack and move at the same time, they dont realize when their projectile attacks are obstructed or out of range, they dont dodge big telegraphed attacks and spend a lot of time in downstate, they dont know or dont care to gear their character properly, and the list goes on.

So no, dumbing down combat has done nothing to fulfill anets vision of making the game more accessible and should never be an excuse for the current design philosophy.

So you’re saying they haven’t dumbed down combat, only damage output?

[Rhingeim.3974]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Let me explain it in a different way. Take a below average player and give them a 30k auto attack dps build like power rev or mace mech. Then put them in a strike, or fractal, or world meta event. They arent going to be doing 30k dps, they will be doing maybe 10k at most. Its not the complexity of classes and their rotation that is the main hurdle for players and their performance. The fundamentals of movement, positioning, and paying attention to mechanics is what separates average from good players. Anets whole idea that making classes easier and less complex is not making the game any more accessible outside of a very small minority of players with physical or cognitive limitations. And for those players there have always been builds like that. You dont need to design entire classes that force that playstyle.

I'm agree about importance of movement, position, mechanics in terms of DPS/Support efficiency. 

 

What I've mentioned, that learning this is the additional level of complexity, which:

1) not used in such a restrictive manner in OW stuff (quests, even meta can be passed without paying attention to mechanics by some part of the group, if there are enough people who know what to do. A good example for this is Dragon End Meta, which I've passed literally without any knowledge about 1/2 mechanics there, simply by providing boons from mech. When I've tried this with scourge, the outcome was.... Worse :)) 

2) affect how your rotation and overall gameplay goes. Like, paying attention while playing Deadeye when to move and when not. 

So, complex rotation class becomes even more complex by throwing mechanics that can intervene rotation and other aspects. In your example, a 30k AA damage build in hands of new player may never surpass 10k mark, but complex one may even fail to get to 10k. Like throwing boons from mech skills vs sand shade placement and executing correct skill order to provide boons, conditions burst and such. 

Increasing amount of required knowledge and skill level will result in increasing time needed to learn/train it.

And designed for easy play class is often better than build because each class may include multiple builds for different playstyles, giving options for people who would rather go with their money elsewhere than spend time of diving deep into class if going thought learning curve and train complex rotation is not fun for them. 

[Bast.7253]

14 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Mech, virtuoso, harbinger are the main 3 that came with EoD. Rifle mech is the latest fotm

Okay, so I tried out rifle mech with rocket turret and at one point got 21k dps. Which isn't breaking any benchmarks but I just spammed mech abilities off cooldown, pressed 1, 2, and 3 on rifle for conditions and 3 might have been a dps loss. 

But yes, that's hilarious. I mean I'm not complaining about it but I think some of the other builds should be brought up to par. Like my Catalyst doing 17k dps while I'm pressing 4 buttons on each weapon, cycling through rotations, and using glyphs and conjured weapons. 

Harbinger was fun to play and was around the same dps but not quite as much. 

Virtuoso was good but it took way more buttons so I wouldn't really classify it the same as mech. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

3 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

The fact, and I agree with you there, that many or even most players have not been positively impacted by dumbing down does not mean that it has not made the game more accessible. The fact, and it is a fact, that SOME people have taken to using some of the newer dumbed down options to achieve greater results means that they have made the game more accessible. The fact that only a portion of the player base takes advantage of increased accessibility doesnt mean that the game is not more accessible.

Those low intensity build already existed though on classes that have a lot of depth to them in other ways. Anet could have achieved the same kind of accessibility by having build showcases or in game guides.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

1 hour ago, Bast.7253 said:

Okay, so I tried out rifle mech with rocket turret and at one point got 21k dps. Which isn't breaking any benchmarks but I just spammed mech abilities off cooldown, pressed 1, 2, and 3 on rifle for conditions and 3 might have been a dps loss. 

But yes, that's hilarious. I mean I'm not complaining about it but I think some of the other builds should be brought up to par. Like my Catalyst doing 17k dps while I'm pressing 4 buttons on each weapon, cycling through rotations, and using glyphs and conjured weapons. 

Harbinger was fun to play and was around the same dps but not quite as much. 

Virtuoso was good but it took way more buttons so I wouldn't really classify it the same as mech. 

Virtuoso is definitely the more active of the 3 since you have to keep track of blades and use shatters. Harb and mech are basically auto attack classes though.

[Hesione.9412]

12 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Valid point. Many players are clickers which means they can't dodge bad stuff in higher end content. I've always been a proponent of anet permanently turning off clicking on the action bar for everyone for this reason. 

For some of us with disabilities, turning off the ability to click would remove our ability to play the game.

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Valid point. Many players are clickers which means they can't dodge bad stuff in higher end content. I've always been a proponent of anet permanently turning off clicking on the action bar for everyone for this reason. 

Clicking shouldn't impact dodging - if anything, it might make dodging easier because you're not trying to do as much with your WASD hand. The problem with clicking is that it slows down your skill use.

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Clicking shouldn't impact dodging - if anything, it might make dodging easier because you're not trying to do as much with your WASD hand. The problem with clicking is that it slows down your skill use.

I mean if you have 4 eyeballs that you can control independently, I would agree. The problem with clicking is it requires your eyes to look at the cursor not the fight.