Rewards... improving pip gain

[Labjax.2465]

So while WvW rewards are being looked at, I thought I would bring up pips and how they relate to the time-gated Skirmish Claim Tickets. Currently, if someone has limited time to play the game, it's gonna be difficult to even complete the weekly pip track, which means the time-gated currency takes increasingly longer to get for them as time goes on. In particular, for a newer player, they aren't going to have much of any help with pips from rank.

I was thinking about how it could be improved and I think the "completed wood division last week" +1 pip is a solid concept to model after. It incentivizes you to do WvW to a certain degree, which will make the time investment a little easier next week and then that next week you are incentivized to at least do the minimum wood division to maintain the gain for the week after that and so on.

Some ideas I thought of along the same lines:

- +1 for having captured a keep last week

- +1 for having completed emblem of the avenger last week

- +1 for having completed emblem of the conqueror last week

The idea here is to encourage people to show up the current week and actively participate, without removing their reason to show up the next week. In other words, easier pips, but it's still something you have to maintain with active participation in the game mode each week.

Thoughts?

[LSD.4673]

The only problem with those examples is that it'll be another reward for zergs that bounce from objective to objective. They'll automatically hit all 3.

[Labjax.2465]

36 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

The only problem with those examples is that it'll be another reward for zergs that bounce from objective to objective. They'll automatically hit all 3.

Any thoughts on other ways to approach it? I don't see the harm in it rewarding zergs as described, but I did think of roamers and such, and I'm not sure how to include them in the same way.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

The only problem with those examples is that it'll be another reward for zergs that bounce from objective to objective. They'll automatically hit all 3.

Is it really though? If you zerg you'll hit all requirements in like an hour. It wouldnt cause any more "bouncing" than normal zerg behaviour. If you dont zerg... well having at least one keep capture is pretty easy and the rest should stack up over the week anyway.

The idea is sound I guess but I'd rather see them compress the current skirmish track to 1000 points (thats the eqvivalent of getting 50% more pips per tick) and give somewhat better rewards for the repeatable.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Labjax.2465]

26 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Is it really though? If you zerg you'll hit all requirements in like an hour. It wouldnt cause any more "bouncing" than normal zerg behaviour. If you dont zerg... well having at least one keep capture is pretty easy and the rest should stack up over the week anyway.

The idea is sound I guess but I'd rather see them compress the current skirmish track to 1000 points (thats the eqvivalent of getting 50% more pips per tick) and give somewhat better rewards for the repeatable.

I like this idea too.

[Jey.2349]

The whole reward system in wvw is way too complicated imo. Kill rewards, reward track, skirmish reward track, understanding pips and participation; it's just unnecessary complex.

[Gorani.7205]

I don't like the idea of rewarding zerg play over other type of WvW participation, like scouting, house-keeping, roaming & hunting, escorting & upgrading etc. Keep caps, Emblems per week does cater the zerg type, but not the others in any way.
Normalizing ticket rewards across all types of chests (so that each chest acts kind of a "gold chest" now) and adding some raw gold coin on repeatable Diamond chests might be less complicated and does award things to all kind of WvW players.

[Voltekka.2375]

Arent you that fella who feels that its 1.000.000% unfair that conflux costs 2600 skirmish tickets? 

Anet buffed base pips more than once. They should, however, distribute tickets more fairly from bronze to diamond chest.

 

[Luthan.5236]

The only thing I really find annoying is the participation system - and that you lose if you want to try playing defensively (building sieges in the keep/towers) - you have to tag something that gets killed. Or capturing an objective ... to keep this up.

Then we already have the +1 from "commitment" - which actually is annoying. Forces you to play and you basically do only the minimum to get this if you do not have much time. (So that you can always have the +1 ... should you suddenly have more time in one week - so you can get the best/max.)

System like in the opening post - is also annoying like this. At the reset and at certain times at days later (prime time) ... maps always are full. Especially the EBG. Game mode needs to be "fun" so players want to play it. Not trying to bait them with rewards where the bare minimum is played to get them. And where it feels annoying or like a "pressure" cause you feel like having to get those rewards.

(I still enjoy the PvP even after finishing the seasonal chests - trying 1 match each day. Can't say this for WvW where aiming for the diamond chest is totally unrealistic. Where I actually only get the wood tier for commitment and then waiting for next week. 😄 If there was a system like in the OP I'd just include those objectives on the reset while doing wood tier - running with a zerg on borderlands where the keeps are capped/recapped often ... while EBG has the super long queue.)

Edited July 4, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Labjax.2465]

7 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

The only thing I really find annoying is the participation system - and that you lose if you want to try playing defensively (building sieges in the keep/towers) - you have to tag something that gets killed. Or capturing an objective ... to keep this up.

Then we already have the +1 from "commitment" - which actually is annoying. Forces you to play and you basically do only the minimum to get this if you do not have much time. (So that you can always have the +1 ... should you suddenly have more time in one week - so you can get the best/max.)

System like in the opening post - is also annoying like this. At the reset and at certain times at days later (prime time) ... maps always are full. Especially the EBG. Game mode needs to be "fun" so players want to play it. Not trying to bait them with rewards where the bare minimum is played to get them. And where it feels annoying or like a "pressure" cause you feel like having to get those rewards.

(I still enjoy the PvP even after finishing the seasonal chests - trying 1 match each day. Can't say this for WvW where aiming for the diamond chest is totally unrealistic. Where I actually only get the wood tier for commitment and then waiting for next week. 😄 If there was a system like in the OP I'd just include those objectives on the reset while doing wood tier - running with a zerg on borderlands where the keeps are capped/recapped often ... while EBG has the super long queue.)

I hear you on the defending, I find these ticky tacky participation systems to be more anxiety-inducing than fun.

W/ regards to the weekly commitment thing, I can def see why it would cause some to feel pressured. As far as baiting people with rewards though, I don't think that's avoidable in a more general sense (not with games as a whole, but with this kind of game). The game is pervasively designed around baiting you with rewards and stuff being more populous on reset is a thing in open world PvE too for similar reasons.

One thing they could consider maybe in this regard is a daily pip bonus. I know that's doubling down on the design, but it's the kind of thing that's done in PvE and seems to work more or less. Much like the WvW dailies with the WvW tracks, it would give you an extra incentive to show up each day for bonus pips, instead of burning yourself out trying to do the whole pip track in a few days.

Just a thought.

[Labjax.2465]

9 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

I don't like the idea of rewarding zerg play over other type of WvW participation, like scouting, house-keeping, roaming & hunting, escorting & upgrading etc. Keep caps, Emblems per week does cater the zerg type, but not the others in any way.
Normalizing ticket rewards across all types of chests (so that each chest acts kind of a "gold chest" now) and adding some raw gold coin on repeatable Diamond chests might be less complicated and does award things to all kind of WvW players.

Well like I said to another poster, I wasn't meaning to consciously exclude that stuff, I just didn't have any ideas to offer as to the how. Some of that isn't play I'm familiar with to begin with, so I'm not sure what would make sense.

As it is, isn't scouting for example already taking a loss? Or does the "commander can allow this person to get participation" thing make it fair enough?

[X T D.6458]

One idea would be to include a Weekly WvW achievement track like we have with strikes, festivals, etc. For example, completing 5 WvW dailies during the week would give you one extra PiP for the following week. 

[Luthan.5236]

10 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

W/ regards to the weekly commitment thing, I can def see why it would cause some to feel pressured. As far as baiting people with rewards though, I don't think that's avoidable in a more general sense (not with games as a whole, but with this kind of game). The game is pervasively designed around baiting you with rewards and stuff being more populous on reset is a thing in open world PvE too for similar reasons.

Yes, of course. Some kind of progression and rewards - are common. As long as you do not play games that really focus only on matches. Like shooters online - and even then you have rankings and achievements and stuff to unlock.

I think the main problem I have is that I don't know about my current mood the following week. In general I play not that much WvW. The least interesting of the three game modes for me. (PvE I enjoy a bit more.) So I could just say I wait until I am in the mood to play more - then playing more for a few weeks in a row ... getting the +1 pip from commitment in the second week. While for now ignoring WvW completely. But I still want to +1 for the following week to always be ready - should I suddenly get into the mood to play more WvW. 😄

I would prefer if such stuff got changed. No rewards that improve for being there daily. In PvW we basically only have the login rewards - that luckily don't even get lost. For the dailies you just get them when playing. Not getting more (increase for the following ones) for playing more in a row.

It would lead to more pressure. And maybe more (too much?) people joining - if such a system got made for WvW. (Problematic with the queues and if people that really wanted to play WvW for fun - complained when more that only wanted this for those achivements or extra pips ... joined.)

Daily pip bonus would be okay though. If it was not designed that you had to play each day - getting an extra for playing more days without a break.

Better would be do redesign the reward system to give rewards for normal play from the events. (But I guess then people would abuse it by just doing the best stuff. Or losing stuff on purpose for an easy recap. Unless you design it to make holding/defending more rewarding as well.)

I had such other posts about this in recent other threads. (Don't know the exact threads anymore.) When a lot of people seem to play just for the fights - ignoring the indended way: Capturing, defending and upgrading the locations and defending upgraded locations with big fights there. Not cap and lose to recap and some fights somewhere off the objective just for figthing and kills.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Luthan.5236