Quickness Catalyst dmg nerf was -20%, not -10%

[Astraeus.4982]

Quickness Catalyst before the patch ran Empowering Auras which gave +10% damage and condition damage (+2% each stack, 5 max stacks are easy to maintain).

Now, to give quickness, Catalyst needs to take Spectacular Sphere, losing the +10% damage AND gain a -10% damage reduction = -20% damage loss.

Here's a reddit link to a dev's explanation. The hilarious part is that Power Catalyst for pure DPS, which was topping the charts, will continue to take Empowering Auras and not have siginificant change to its DPS (mostly only affected only by the water hammer skills nerf). Quickness Cata, which was NOT topping the charts, gets a -20% damage loss!

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Don't forget that they nerfed sphere damage globally, along with nerfing the auto attacks for... some reason.

[Kodama.6453]

Well, looking at the statement you posted, it seems that they are aware that Catalyst will still be a top performer in dps and are fine with it.

What they were not fine with was that 3 completely damage oriented catalysts (nothing but damage traits, damage utilities, full berserker equip) were able to reach 100% quickness uptime for their entire subsquad.

This was the problem the grandmaster trait change was supposed to tackle. To make the strategy to stack multiple completely damage oriented catalysts, which were able to provide quickness for absolutely no investment whatsoever, unviable.

[Bleikopf.2491]

Does this mean that they agree with Catalyst being a top DPS class?
Because, honestly, I can't see that after some statements from some individual that complexity shall not be rewarded and simply my experience as an Ele main.
E: The exact statement has been "complexity is not an excuse to overperform".

Since it also seems like Tempest can't compete with the meta options for Alacrity, looks like once again Ele is shoved into the complex melee DPS slot. We already have that in Weaver and we know the song and dance already.

I wish they'd make their mind up about what Catalyst is supposed to do. If we take the idea that every class gets to choose two roles from {DPS, heals, Alacrity, Quickness}, then DPS + Quickness provider is a viable role combination. It's just that Catalyst can't do that with the current traits in a reasonable way that doesn't leave it at -20% dmg now or no investment cost as it was before.

I'll wait for further balance patches and whatever the top guilds come up. Currently it seems like there isn't a real idea what Catalyst is supposed to do and how it's supposed to do.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Bleikopf.2491
Misrepresentation

[Kodama.6453]

55 minutes ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Because, honestly, I can't see that after some statements from some individual that complexity shall not be rewarded and simply my experience as an Ele main.

You just made up a statement which was never made. The exact statement has been "complexity is not an excuse to overperform".
Emphasis on the word overperform here.

Overperforming and performing well (and therefore, getting rewarded) are 2 different things. To make an exaggerated example to show what I mean: if a class has a complex playstyle, but straight up doubles the dps of all other classes, it is overperforming. Because it is crowding out other dps options from the game. When it performs that much better than everyone else, then you would be stupid not to use this class as a dps, even if it might take some time from you to learn it.

So generally, yes, complexity should be rewarded. But there is a limit how much you should get rewarded. Because if the reward is too big, you start overperforming. And apparently, catalyst was crossing that line for Anet.

The latest mechanist nerfs also show that they still hold up the idea that complexity should be rewarded. Because if they would really think that complexity shouldn't be rewarded, then in reverse it would also mean that they think a lack of complexity shouldn't be punished. But they did exactly that with the mechanist nerfs, because the class was performing better than they liked it to with it's low level of effort.

55 minutes ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

I wish they'd make their mind up about what Catalyst is supposed to do. If we take the idea that every class gets to choose two roles from {DPS, heals, Alacrity, Quickness}, then DPS + Quickness provider is a viable role combination. It's just that Catalyst can't do that with the current traits in a reasonable way that doesn't leave it at -20% dmg now or no investment cost as it was before.

Catalyst has some design flaws which they would have to tackle, unfortunately.

The big problem was that catalyst had all it's quickness put into a single skill, which therefore needed to have a pretty good uptime on it's own to be able to reach 100% uptime with just a single source (33% quickness uptime without any boon duration or trait investments before).

Look how other classes are designed. Usually you are requested to take a trait and associated utility skills to get access to these powerful boons (spirits, gyros, wells, etc.). They work with generally lower individual uptimes, which is made up by having multiple sources of the boons spread over several skills on your bar.

The grandmaster trait change was really just a bandaid to fix this underlying design flaw.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[soulknight.9620]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Look how other classes are designed.

Im looking at qFB. Sooo whats up? Where is the tradeoff? Push 2 buttons once per 9 sec to get perma quick and deal 28k dps?

 

3 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Catalyst has some design flaws which they would have to tackle, unfortunately.

Sure, the major flaw is letting people abuse high APM skill mechanics (like insta casted skills) and punish everyone else for this design flaw. You do realise that majority of catalyst "overperforming" dps comes from "stacking sphere/glyphs/fields" and not from your regular skill rotations. Same problem we have been going through with HoT tempest, when the broken part was lightning glyph, lightning attunement, lava font, fire attunement, MS, Ice bow 5. The answer is simple - anet should stop making abilities do multiple instances of dps at a time or nerf them and not class/spec mechanics/traits/regular skills.

 Then they could actually adjust dps of skills to their preferences. 

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The exact statement has been "complexity is not an excuse to overperform".
Emphasis on the word overperform here.

Overperform is quite subjective. And the sad part is they never actually stated what are they aiming at when it comes to "performing/overperforming/underperforming". There should be an objective cryteria. Lets just say if and average player does 30k dps on a 3 button class/spec. Than that should be considered performance. If anyone does 40k dps on a 20+button push class it is not overperforming. BUT if an average guy does 40k dps on a 3 button class - that is overperforming when you compare it to the abovementioned. And gw2 hadnt adressed that. They just nerf ele everytime they get a decent dps spec cause 0.1% of high end playerbase can abuse their design flaws and do 15% more dps. And leave other "overperforming" classes untouched (hi fb and mech). 

 

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

To make an exaggerated example to show what I mean: if a class has a complex playstyle, but straight up doubles the dps of all other classes, it is overperforming.

No its not. You got to look at what else does this spec/class provide. If this class can get a lot of utility or support and still do that kind of dps - sure. But if it has 0 utility, 0 support and nothing else besides high dps - it is not overperforming. Its called specialising. You wouldnt complain if a HFB or HAM or HTempest did x10 more healing than you on your dps build wouldnt you? The sad part about current balance that cata is not good at anything besides dps (even if you go quick cata, ur offrole is still dps).
There are reasons people take specific classes instead of "overperforming cata" in groups, first of all its reliability: an amoeba can get decent amount of dps from fb/virt/scourge atm which basically spells "low risk of this guy failing". On the other hand cat has a lot of opportunities to fail his role and provide mediocre at best dps. Second is utility and support that class brings. Even full dps scourge/fb can bring loads of utility for their team. And cata? (ritorical question). 

[Kodama.6453]

11 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Im looking at qFB. Sooo whats up? Where is the tradeoff? Push 2 buttons once per 9 sec to get perma quick and deal 28k dps?

FB is also flawed in it's design. Not going to deny that.

11 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Sure, the major flaw is letting people abuse high APM skill mechanics (like insta casted skills) and punish everyone else for this design flaw. You do realise that majority of catalyst "overperforming" dps comes from "stacking sphere/glyphs/fields" and not from your regular skill rotations. Same problem we have been going through with HoT tempest, when the broken part was lightning glyph, lightning attunement, lava font, fire attunement, MS, Ice bow 5. The answer is simple - anet should stop making abilities do multiple instances of dps at a time or nerf them and not class/spec mechanics/traits/regular skills.

 Then they could actually adjust dps of skills to their preferences. 

Sure, but the entire elementalist class is basically built on these skill principles. You are basically asking for them to rework the class in general. Which might actually be a good idea, but it will take alot of ressources.

11 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Overperform is quite subjective. And the sad part is they never actually stated what are they aiming at when it comes to "performing/overperforming/underperforming". There should be an objective cryteria. Lets just say if and average player does 30k dps on a 3 button class/spec. Than that should be considered performance. If anyone does 40k dps on a 20+button push class it is not overperforming. BUT if an average guy does 40k dps on a 3 button class - that is overperforming when you compare it to the abovementioned. And gw2 hadnt adressed that. They just nerf ele everytime they get a decent dps spec cause 0.1% of high end playerbase can abuse their design flaws and do 15% more dps. And leave other "overperforming" classes untouched (hi fb and mech). 

Who says there isn't an objective criteria? Just because they didn't share it with us doesn't have to mean it doesn't exist.

Apparently, since it was specifically called out by the devs, this 15% difference in dps was already more than they were comfortable with.

11 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

No its not. You got to look at what else does this spec/class provide. If this class can get a lot of utility or support and still do that kind of dps - sure. But if it has 0 utility, 0 support and nothing else besides high dps - it is not overperforming.

I literally said that it doubles the dps of ALL other classes, including everyone else who puts their entire investment into damage and foregoing any utility or support capabilities.

If other classes are also investing absolutely everything in nothing but damage and you still double their damage, then you ARE overperforming. That is not debatable.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Bleikopf.2491]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You just made up a statement which was never made. The exact statement has been "complexity is not an excuse to overperform".
Emphasis on the word overperform here.

I'll condede that the statement was never made in that way and will update my comment to reflect that.

Still, ANets balance philosophy is opaque at best and leaves me with a bitter taste.

29 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Who says there isn't an objective criteria? Just because they didn't share it with us doesn't have to mean it doesn't exist.

Apparently, since it was specifically called out by the devs, this 15% difference in dps was already more than they were comfortable with.

This is one of those things that leaves me with a bitter taste.
I can totally understand their reasoning. It's valid reasoning.
The fact that we don't know the objective criterias is a red flag though. Same as with the fact they need time to share their balance philosopy with us after the drama after the big patch.

I agree that I misrepresented ANet. I didn't do that out of malice. I did that because that's what it seems like to me and I failed to split that from the facts.
Not arguing that Catalyst isn't overperforming. It is. But looking at stuff like Weaver, I'm pessimistic about Catalysts future.

[soulknight.9620]

21 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If other classes are also investing absolutely everything in nothing but damage and you still double their damage, then you ARE overperforming. That is not debatable.

There is a problem. Since we are talking about gw2, there are a lot of classes that have built in support/utility which cannot be "disabled". For example scourge/fb. And based on that the "formula" is not applicable. 

And general in mmos (or any other rpgs) when you pick a class you actually expect it to differenciate from other classes in some way. You wouldnt expect a tank or tanky class to deal same amount of dps as a full dps class (mage/ranger/etc). Thats why some classes have built in "strong points". Gw2 was balanced same way untill anet suddenly realised that they want to "allow every class perform the same". Thats where problems kicks in. Ele was fine when it was glass cannon with 0 utility and 0 support that outdpsed something like guardian, necro, etc. 

 

25 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Who says there isn't an objective criteria? Just because they didn't share it with us doesn't have to mean it doesn't exist.

The pure practice says that. In basic logic there is a principle that states that you cannot prove that something does not exist, thus burden of proof falls on someone who says it exist. They are making same mistakes for years now. Last patch was practically a joke - they buffed op classes and nerfed underperforming ones, does this looks like they have an objective criteria? Even if they have written down somewhere some criteria, but didnt impelment it - its nonexistant untill proven otherwise. And ofc if you look up the leaks, you will see their "design philosophies". 

[Kodama.6453]

18 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

There is a problem. Since we are talking about gw2, there are a lot of classes that have built in support/utility which cannot be "disabled". For example scourge/fb. And based on that the "formula" is not applicable. 

And general in mmos (or any other rpgs) when you pick a class you actually expect it to differenciate from other classes in some way. You wouldnt expect a tank or tanky class to deal same amount of dps as a full dps class (mage/ranger/etc). Thats why some classes have built in "strong points". Gw2 was balanced same way untill anet suddenly realised that they want to "allow every class perform the same". Thats where problems kicks in. Ele was fine when it was glass cannon with 0 utility and 0 support that outdpsed something like guardian, necro, etc. 

0 utility and 0 support? Dude, elementalist is the prime example of a class which simply can't disable utility and support.
Every elementalist spec, no matter what you build, always has access to the 4 core elements: air, water, earth and fire.
Then take a look at how these elements are built.

• Water: ALWAYS providing healing
• Earth: ALWAYS providing defensive mechancis, condition damage and CC
• Air: ALWAYS providing CC and power damage
• Fire: ALWAYS providing power and condition damage

That elementalist is allowed to be a top performer in dps is already pretty good, since this class simpy can't avoid to also provide utility and support aspects. It is literally unable to avoid these functions because of how this class is built.

And this has been the case since the very beginning of this game.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[soulknight.9620]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

0 utility and 0 support? Dude, elementalist is the prime example of a class which simply can't disable utility and support.
Every elementalist spec, no matter what you build, always has access to the 4 core elements: air, water, earth and fire.
Then take a look at how these elements are built.

• Water: ALWAYS providing healing
• Earth: ALWAYS providing defensive mechancis, condition damage and CC
• Air: ALWAYS providing CC and power damage
• Fire: ALWAYS providing power and condition damage

That elementalist is allowed to be a top performer in dps is already pretty good, since this class simpy can't avoid to also provide utility and support aspects. It is literally unable to avoid these functions because of how this class is built.

When talking about support/utility its needs to be looked at group perspective. Since thats the main point of our discussion (not like anyone would argue that cele ele is op in OW). 
 

Power and condi damage is not utility/support. 
Water: avg 1k heal on a 15-20sec cd without investing into healing power. And usually its for self only. 
Earth: 1 def mechanic (usually block/magnetic aura) self only, soft/hard cc. 
Air: soft/hard cc, some gimicky support (like swiftness/projectile block).
Fire: nothing/some gimicky mechanics like boon share unless you go for full support (but we are talking about dps builds here). 

 

So the group support/utility is nonexistant. 

All of the abovementioned is build in any/most weapon types for other classes and since they have 2 weapon sets you can cover that a lot more. 

And you do realise that in order to get access to any of the abovementioned you need to butcher your dps? Since if u do power dmg u go for fire-air rotation. For condi fire-earth. Any time you want to get an access to the "built in support" you literary loose loads (like 50-70%) of your dps. Catalyst has it a bit easier, but his "utility/support" is limited in full dps build. 

 

But where is true support/utility? Where is our boon uptime/share (in full dps builds that is)? Where is stab, aegis? Where is quick/alac? Where is reliable heal (1k is a joke and you know it)? Where is "on demand" cc (since you have to be in the right attunement to get the cc bar down or loose dps for switching in advance)? Where is boon strip? Reliable projectile block? Invisibility (skipping mobs for ex.)? Pull skills?. Condi cleanses (not like 1 condi cleanse every 40-50 sec)?
When you compare that to something like fb/necro/rev (in its dps builds ofc) you will realise that ele has nonexistant utility and support. 

[Bleikopf.2491]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

0 utility and 0 support? Dude, elementalist is the prime example of a class which simply can't disable utility and support.
Every elementalist spec, no matter what you build, always has access to the 4 core elements: air, water, earth and fire.
Then take a look at how these elements are built.

• Water: ALWAYS providing healing
• Earth: ALWAYS providing defensive mechancis, condition damage and CC
• Air: ALWAYS providing CC and power damage
• Fire: ALWAYS providing power and condition damage

That elementalist is allowed to be a top performer in dps is already pretty good, since this class simpy can't avoid to also provide utility and support aspects. It is literally unable to avoid these functions because of how this class is built.

And this has been the case since the very beginning of this game.

You forgot the biggest source of utility and support: combos

Does anyone even use combos anymore? Do we still blast fire for might? Water for healing? 

 

Which leads me right to the next point. 

Ele probably needs a serious Rework. 

The "Jack-of-all-trades" idea is imo badly implemented. We got a lot of small situational tricks which are on one hand outdated due to the power creep since Hot and PoF especially, and those tricks are simply spread too far. Yes, we got more weapon skills and more utilities through that. But that also means we have to go through more weapon swaps to access all those. And those tools are also low scaling and high cool down. You could argue that those is just part of the cost for having so many tools, which is fair, but questionable if they add up with the other disadvantages. 

Using any of those tools puts you in Attunements that are too specialized and suddenly your DPS gear in the Water attunement is strongly mismatched. 

Which leads me to the fact that Ele has a lot of tools, but has to specialize anyway. The heal on a DPS Ele is.. bad and barely worth using.

 

While it's supposed to be Jack of all trades, in practice it feels like you got 4 different roles in one weapon, but your traits and gear work with about half of them. 

[soulknight.9620]

4 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Does anyone even use combos anymore? Do we still blast fire for might? Water for healing? 

Catalyst make some use of them. But thats due easy access to combo fields. But the effects are mediocre outside water one and trait synergy. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Yes, we got more weapon skills and more utilities through that.

Thats not quite right. Lets see the numbers. 
Ele has 20 weapon skills +5 utilities+sphere from cata (u might argue its 4 separate skills, but reasonably its not). Thats 25-26 skills. (not counting conjures cause they are on a tight cd). 
Engie has 5 weapon skills +5 utilities+5 toolbelt skills+ 10 kit skills (which can be 5x5=25 skills, but lets be realistic and assume you use 2 kits). Thats 23 skills (with options of more kits). 

Mesmer has 10 weapon skills+4-5 shatters+5 utilities. Thats 19-20 skills.

Guardian has 10 weapon skills+3 virtues (or 15 skills if FB)+5 utilities. Thats 18-30 skills depending on elite spec. 

Necro has 10 weapon skills+5 shroud skills+5 utilities. Thats 20 skills. 

Ranger has 10 weapon skills (or 12 with untamed)+5 utilities+1-4 pet skills (depending on elite spec)+5 CA skills in druid (if druid elite equiped). Thats 16-21 skills.

Thief has 10 weapon skills (with 0 cd)+5 utilities+2 (steal+stolen skill)+5 specter form (if specter equiped). Thats 17-22 skills.

Revenant has 10 weapon skills+10(or 15 with vindi stance). I will not count in that F2 skill. So thats 20-25 skills.

Warrior has 10 weapon skills + 5 utilities +2burst skills(not counted for bladesworn)+5 (f2 mode if bladesworn equiped). Thats 17-20 skills. 

 

So as you can see any class atm has minimum 17 skills, average 20 skills, and some even 25-30 (like FB). With all of new elite spec mechanics i might say we got a few skills extra on average when comparing to other specs, but there are classes with more "buttons" out there. The difference is not that big that it should affect ele balancing to any extent. 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by soulknight.9620

[Bleikopf.2491]

18 minutes ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Catalyst make some use of them. But thats due easy access to combo fields. But the effects are mediocre outside water one and trait synergy. 

In my Opinion, combos have been powercrept out of the game. I like catalyst synergy with combos, don't get me wrong. But it also feels like a bandaid to make combos somewhat relevant again. 

If ANet is going to bring older skills up to the contemporary level, I'd suggest starting with making one of the selling points of GW2 relevant again. 

Having combos be relevant again should help Ele out already, and then we can see where to go from there 

[soulknight.9620]

Just now, Bleikopf.2491 said:

In my Opinion, combos have been powercrept out of the game. I like catalyst synergy with combos, don't get me wrong. But it also feels like a bandaid to make combos somewhat relevant again. 

If ANet is going to bring older skills up to the contemporary level, I'd suggest starting with making one of the selling points of GW2 relevant again. 

Having combos be relevant again should help Ele out already, and then we can see where to go from there 

Nah, i dont think that will happen. Although i want that to happen. It seems like Anet want to forget about every "skill based" mechanic out there. For average player executing a combo in the right time in the right place is kinda hard. Thats why i believe they will stay forgoten outside some synergies like Catalyst. 

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, soulknight.9620 said:

Engie has 5 weapon skills +5 utilities+5 toolbelt skills+ 10 kit skills (which can be 5x5=25 skills, but lets be realistic and assume you use 2 kits). Thats 25 skills (with options of more kits). 

If you work under the assumption that engineer uses 2 kits, then you can't count them as having 5 utility skills. Since you are slotting 2 of them with the kits.

So in your example, the engineer has:

5 weapon skills + 5 toolbelt skills + 3 utility skills + 10 kit skills = 23 skills in total

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

12 hours ago, Astraeus.4982 said:

Quickness Catalyst before the patch ran Empowering Auras which gave +10% damage and condition damage (+2% each stack, 5 max stacks are easy to maintain).

Now, to give quickness, Catalyst needs to take Spectacular Sphere, losing the +10% damage AND gain a -10% damage reduction = -20% damage loss.

Here's a reddit link to a dev's explanation. The hilarious part is that Power Catalyst for pure DPS, which was topping the charts, will continue to take Empowering Auras and not have siginificant change to its DPS (mostly only affected only by the water hammer skills nerf). Quickness Cata, which was NOT topping the charts, gets a -20% damage loss!

If it gets a higher benchmark than firebrand it gets nerfed

[soulknight.9620]

10 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

If it gets a higher benchmark than firebrand it gets nerfed

yeah, theres a benchmark video of qFB doing 29k dps after the patch. Compare that to qCata and its 22k and find out that its all balanced.

[soulknight.9620]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

5 weapon skills + 5 toolbelt skills + 3 utility skills + 10 kit skills = 23 skills in total

Corrected. But it doesnt actually change the whole picture. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

11 hours ago, soulknight.9620 said:

yeah, theres a benchmark video of qFB doing 29k dps after the patch. Compare that to qCata and its 22k and find out that its all balanced.

Just as it should be, far below firebrand. Just imagine the horror if firebrand wasnt meta.