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The balance communication is nice, but we need to see WORKFLOW changes.


Linnael.1069

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The community isn't just up in arms because of a bad balance patch, we are up in arms because it has become clear exactly why the balance patches have been so bad. Professions are changed by people who literally don't even understand how they function. A dev literally just keeps guardian OP because he mains it, and we now know that is a self-admitted fact

 

I really appreciate the quick updates about new fixes coming down the pipe. But those are mechanical changes, addressing the symptom. When will we hear about the cause?

 

I think we would all appreciate hearing about how Arenanet is going to change the clearly broken culture and attitudes at hand.

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The only solution to making these other professions viable in this game is to have the players apply for jobs at ANET and do it ourselves. 🤣 

Since most of the devs that works there only play Guardian, Necros and Engis. 

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38 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or, instead of balancing off of the wiki, they can go read the profession subforums and see what the profession mains are discussing.

Actually thats also not the best idea imo. Every profession subforum thinks their class is the worst. This applies not for all tho. 

Every class has underperforming stuff. Old core weapons like guardian hammer, warrior hammer and so on. Thief sword...... often also traits like 300s CDs. Or utility skills with 180s cd in pve. Very sometimes whole specs like Arms of warrior, Tools of engi... utility skills like gadgets, conjures....

And sometimes whole e specs r underperforming: herald, druid, spellbreaker... (pve)

The best thing would maybe be to make one long thread outside of the subforums for each profession but in the subforum for all professions and then u call out all underperforming stuff without making too strange stuff like: buff my profession to 50k dps ty. 

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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or, instead of balancing off of the wiki, they can go read the profession subforums and see what the profession mains are discussing.

Fix guard scepter noise and axe symbol being slightly inconvenient to place sometimes. GOT IT!

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8 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Fix guard scepter noise and axe symbol being slightly inconvenient to place sometimes. GOT IT!

Lol yeah honestly the guard forum is hilarious. Even the dev that balances guard freely admits it is OP but those guys can't...

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26 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Fix guard scepter noise and axe symbol being slightly inconvenient to place sometimes. GOT IT!

Fix guard sperm bolts before the noise.

 

 

36 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Actually thats also not the best idea imo. Every profession subforum thinks their class is the worst. This applies not for all tho. 

Every class has underperforming stuff. Old core weapons like guardian hammer, warrior hammer and so on. Thief sword...... often also traits like 300s CDs. Or utility skills with 180s cd in pve. Very sometimes whole specs like Arms of warrior, Tools of engi... utility skills like gadgets, conjures....

And sometimes whole e specs r underperforming: herald, druid, spellbreaker... (pve)

The best thing would maybe be to make one long thread outside of the subforums for each profession but in the subforum for all professions and then u call out all underperforming stuff without making too strange stuff like: buff my profession to 50k dps ty. 

And the Mains typically freely discuss the underperforming stuff in their subforums. Grant it, the guard subforum is complaining and the AA noise on scepter, but guard hammer is been bad for a very long time, and is frequently discussed over there.

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6 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Actually thats also not the best idea imo. Every profession subforum thinks their class is the worst. This applies not for all tho. 

Every class has underperforming stuff. Old core weapons like guardian hammer, warrior hammer and so on. Thief sword...... often also traits like 300s CDs. Or utility skills with 180s cd in pve. Very sometimes whole specs like Arms of warrior, Tools of engi... utility skills like gadgets, conjures....

And sometimes whole e specs r underperforming: herald, druid, spellbreaker... (pve)

The best thing would maybe be to make one long thread outside of the subforums for each profession but in the subforum for all professions and then u call out all underperforming stuff without making too strange stuff like: buff my profession to 50k dps ty. 

If taken at face value, yeah. 

Class forums have deeper understanding of the class that plays. Doesn't mean their solutions are good. They usually know what feels bad to play as. Sometimes they know Why it feels bad to play something. 

As Rosewater said, Community is great at finding flaws, bad at fixing them.

On another note, some of the catalyst changes seem to be what was suggested in the ele forum very early on. Frontload boon support from sphere, wider radius, make quickness dependent on traits so there's a build choice existing.

On yet another note, staff changes.. 

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11 minutes ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

 Community is great at finding flaws, bad at fixing them.

 


Totally agree. Not to mention that there is also a bias in the flaws that are cared about more often; towards meta builds, rather than more global concepts of balance like opening up more options to players. Instead they opt pigeon hole their suggestions into how to nerf other classes or buff their own meta build. 

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In light of the “design notes” I feel this point is even more important to remember. 
 

The balance patches will not improve. The laughable design philosophy will not improve. Nothing will improve until the source of the problem is changed.

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5 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I mean, suggestions from the subforums can still be filtered by the anet devs. 

Idk about you guys, but Warr sub has the most solid, well-rounded and balanced approaches in the whole forum. 

If you think warr is OP tho, more strength to you ig. 

The point is that they could theoretically read good suggestions from the forum, but the current devs have clearly demonstrated they are not competent enough to even recognize good advice when they read it. 
 

I just want people to recognize that suggesting specific fixes is going to go nowhere fast. Maybe you’ll get one lucky step forwards at the cost of five random steps backwards. There is a fundamental problem with the Anet workflow. They are simply not competent enough to make good balance, and they won’t be until that changes.

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13 minutes ago, Linnael.1069 said:

The point is that they could theoretically read good suggestions from the forum, but the current devs have clearly demonstrated they are not competent enough to even recognize good advice when they read it. 
 

I just want people to recognize that suggesting specific fixes is going to go nowhere fast. Maybe you’ll get one lucky step forwards at the cost of five random steps backwards. There is a fundamental problem with the Anet workflow. They are simply not competent enough to make good balance, and they won’t be until that changes.

Oh yeah, thats why I stopped playing kek

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6 hours ago, Linnael.1069 said:

The point is that they could theoretically read good suggestions from the forum, but the current devs have clearly demonstrated they are not competent enough to even recognize good advice when they read it. 
 

I just want people to recognize that suggesting specific fixes is going to go nowhere fast. Maybe you’ll get one lucky step forwards at the cost of five random steps backwards. There is a fundamental problem with the Anet workflow. They are simply not competent enough to make good balance, and they won’t be until that changes.

I'm going to back this up ... but the fix isn't for Anet to do a better job at 'filtering' player suggestions. The fix is simply to recognize the game Anet are going to provide and what that means for the practical result of how it plays. It's not a workflow problem ... because there is practically no way for Anet to filter players suggestions ina way that results in better balancing. It's a player expectation issue. 

Now, specifically for this patch, bring critical here ... it's neither a Anet ignoring players nor an expectation issue. Anet just isn't following any fundamental design rules with the changes I'm seeing being made or proposed. That itself is a MASSIVE problem IF Anet wants a standard of performance across classes (and that's an IF ...)

Edited by Obtena.7952
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10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm going to back this up ... but the fix isn't for Anet to do a better job at 'filtering' player suggestions. The fix is simply to recognize the game Anet are going to provide and what that means for the practical result of how it plays. It's not a workflow problem ... because there is practically no way for Anet to filter players suggestions ina way that results in better balancing. It's a player expectation issue. 

Now, specifically for this patch, bring critical here ... it's neither a Anet ignoring players nor an expectation issue. Anet just isn't following any fundamental design rules with the changes I'm seeing being made or proposed. That itself is a MASSIVE problem IF Anet wants a standard of performance across classes (and that's an IF ...)


To improve an product you have to take customer feedback in consideration. There is a reason why every modern developing method includes it. In some cases whole phases are only dedicated to collect those informations. Of cause such philosophys are important but it doesn’t matter at all which fundamental design rules they choose as long as the customer base doesn’t agree on those rules. 
 

I still wonder why you are always doing like balancing is not an end to end process. It’s always this „the company is the leader“ principe but in special in the field Consumer-Software it is clearly the other way around. Scrum, Crystal and co. are perfect examples for this.

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7 hours ago, SugarJohnson.4596 said:


To improve an product you have to take customer feedback in consideration. There is a reason why every modern developing method includes it. In some cases whole phases are only dedicated to collect those informations. Of cause such philosophys are important but it doesn’t matter at all which fundamental design rules they choose as long as the customer base doesn’t agree on those rules. 
 

I still wonder why you are always doing like balancing is not an end to end process. It’s always this „the company is the leader“ principe but in special in the field Consumer-Software it is clearly the other way around. Scrum, Crystal and co. are perfect examples for this.

Well, I didn't  say they shouldn't take it in consideration so ...

And yes, Agile development method listens to the voice of the customer and EVEN in that case, companies have to make choices because customers want different things. See, again, this isn't about workflow. It's about the FUNDAMENTAL fact that Anet can't give everyone everything they want. It can ONLY be ONE way in this game. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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On 7/10/2022 at 7:09 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, I didn't  say they shouldn't take it in consideration so ...

And yes, Agile development method listens to the voice of the customer and EVEN in that case, companies have to make choices because customers want different things. See, again, this isn't about workflow. It's about the FUNDAMENTAL fact that Anet can't give everyone everything they want. It can ONLY be ONE way in this game. 

 

Shallow argument. No one denies that you can't please everyone. And of cause you need to follow a basic set of rules to develope. But that’s not the point and it’s quite a logic fallacies you are putting up here.  
Since years it was suspected that the input „customer feedback“ is totally missing in the process. Recent leaks showed exactly that. Now people even give suggestions how to improve the process to receive the obvious missing input value and as everyone already expected, you come again up with „nope, can’t be the problem, they need Design rules“.  

Like seriously, we could have been at the point to speak out against this kitten dev team as a whole community since years but people like you with your absurde statements delayed what should have happened long time ago. You are part of the reason this whole thematic needs years to finally get going. 

 

At this point I think it’s just your character that denies you from being part of something. And tbh, writing some of your key words in capslock is ridiculous at best. What do you want to achieve with this? That your arguments get some substance instead of being empty statements? 

Edited by SugarJohnson.4596
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14 hours ago, SugarJohnson.4596 said:

Shallow argument.

and yet still valid because it's based on what is real. The fact is that what ever you convince yourself of on how Anet does or doesn't listen to players for class balance changes is actually irrelevant because in the end, they can ONLY implement one version of the game. This means there are a whole bunch of players QQing Anet doesn't listen to them because their idea didn't get implemented, even if Anet actually does implement an idea that originates from a player.

That's not a workflow problem. That will exist NO MATTER what development methodology or workflow being used. That's a customer expectation issue and frankly, Anet would do themselves alot of good to be straight up honest in telling people exactly WHAT they listen to so people stop wasting their time. 

I mean, I'm wrong? Do tell then .. how does Anet change their workflow to accommodate all player feedback with a transparent 360 retrospective with all those players in a cost effective manner so they don't complain they aren't listened to? Let me answer that ... they don't, because we as customers aren't going to be willing to pay for that additional game development cost through increased pricing. It's just NOT that valuable to players, especially if the reality is that players aren't really in the 'armchair class design' positions they've self -appointed themselves to. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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