[Suggestions] Conjures as temporary kit

[Mithos.9023]

I would like to present a mostly quality of life update for conjure weapons. For me, they are the skill type that defines the elementalist, just as banners are a crucial part of the class identity of warrior for example. Still most of the time I do not want to have them on my skill bar, as they simply fell awful to use. Therefore, first a small analysis, then the idea.

From Arenanets’ point of view, as I remember them say, they want conjures to have the following abilities: Shareable with others and being limited for the elementalist to avoid one conjure used permanently to be the optimal way to play elementalist. They should be more of an addition to fill a role for a short amount of time that your locked weapon could not perform.

Why I don’t like the conjures comes down to several points. And from my experience and the suggestions in the past many share these pain points.

1. One of the biggest down points for me is that you lose access to the conjure the moment you need your weapons back. This can leave you with no value at all and a 60s cooldown if the second weapon is no more an option either

2. The second big point is that to get value out of the second weapon at all, you need to first reach it. A fixed point in a game that relays so much on moving is simply counterproductive and never feels like a good choice

3. That you can take the second weapon at all, as its main point is to share it, has led to many frustrating situations in the past. While I have not been affected by this much I have read many posts of other frustrated about “their” weapons being stolen

4. Long cast and animation time

5. A more personal opinion, the rather underwhelming focus on some of them. For example, why has the ice bow a healing autoattack if the rest of the kit couldn’t be further away from healing? This simply degrades the weapon

Now, my idea would be this:

Casting a conjure would still cast a second weapon on the ground for others to use. This keeps the sharing experience. But I would change this conjure to be only able for other players to be picked up and not the elementalist. This would solve some issues, the anger about others steeling the weapon. And for oneself no longer needing to run around to fetch the second weapon, which is one major point in why they are seen as clunky.

Now for the elementalist the conjure would become a flip over skill. This skill could be up for distinct time, 40s as example and functioning like a kit. So, if you need the weapons back, you can later use this flip over skill to get back into the bundle. With the skill being only available 40s and a cd of 60s we can fulfill Arenanets’ point of being not a permanent addition, but having some downtime. Still, 40s could allow for much more flexibility.

 

That is basically all.

[Kodama.6453]

While it is an interesting idea, it would also make elementalist rotations, which are already some of the most intense and difficult rotations of the game, even more complicated by adding "kit juggling" on top of it.

Also shouldn't some power get shaved away if this gets implemented? Like, for example, removing the bonus stats granted by the conjured weapons. The ability to swap in and out of the weapon repeatedly is already a major increase in power for these skills, so I think some stuff might need to get sacrificed for this to happen. Maybe also nerfs across the board for their damage numbers.

The uptime should also get adjusted. having an uptime as a kit for 40 seconds with a 60 seconds cooldown might just mean a downtime for 20 seconds if the cooldown already starts ticking at the cast of the skill. Which is not really alot of downtime.

EDIT: Ok, I get confused emotes. Cool. But could anyone at least attempt to explain to me why this is a bad take?

Edited July 5, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Mithos.9023]

Complex is relative. Currently, you have one element with picking up a second weapon that can add quite a lot of complexity into any rotation. But with more ease of access it may play out nice as well. But I get what you mean, especially if more than one conjure skill would be in use. That is true, but I would take any small increase in complexity if the skills would actually be fun to use.

I also don’t think that any nerf would outright be needed. I mean, you can use the conjures for 30s now already, but in reality, they end up being thrown away within seconds after a single skill or two. They are already in a state, were it is not beneficial to hold on it as long as possible, as many skills are not good enough to warrant it. That would not change with my suggestion. So, they might be already in quite a balanced state. They might even need some change to actually support a defined role.

About uptime, the times were of course just a suggestion and the cooldown can be adjusted accordingly. But think about that, if you pick up your second conjure now you can have them for ~ 59s, so you can have nearly 100% uptime now. If it’s not “stolen” of course.  So, my suggestion would even reduce this to already to 66%. Isn’t that enough downtime?

I suggested 40s as middle ground, to alleviate the lost second weapon. This would already be a drawback.

I can’t say anything about the emotes, but I have a feeling that many don’t like the current iteration, as seen from the many previous post. So, any argument not in favour fo change might not be seen in a good light. Just a hunch so.

But out of curiosity, do you like how the conjures are now?

Edit: spelling

Edited July 5, 2022 by Mithos.9023

[Endaris.1452]

2 hours ago, Mithos.9023 said:

I suggested 40s as middle ground, to alleviate the lost second weapon. This would already be a drawback.

The improved accessibility from a kit-like function would already more than make up for losing the conjure pick up.

With the current conjure pick up you're using the hard hitting skills twice per conjure cast in your rotation, once initially and once after picking it up again. With a kit-like behaviour you're already able to use them twice (even thrice for FGS assuming alac) so you're effectively not losing anything.

I would also argue that in every content outside of raids and strike missions you're basically not going to have phases longer than 30s anyway, making a kit-like conjure straight up better there.

 

Remember that kits being so powerful is essentially the reason why core engi can't have good things like more weaponsets among other stuff. I like the idea for PvE because it resolves the conjure share in a nice manner while making it more generally useful to the ele but it also sounds very powerful in competitive modes.

You definitely want to avoid a situation in which enemy players have to worry for the entire duration of a conjure (let's say earth shield) that they will get confronted with a certain skill (e.g. block, daze, invuln) at any given moment without being able to plan for it. The weakness of ele to only have access to a certain set of skills at a given time absolutely needs to be preserved.

[Stallic.2397]

I'm a simple man with simple pleasures like:

 

-Conjures have no activation time. Instant cast

 

-Conjures has a flip skill on their utility bar. When pressed, the second conjure returns to the Ele like a "thor hammer" 

 

The rest can remain the same. It's limitations and differences from kits are tolerable, but the QOL needs to be updated. 

 

Asking Ele's to run back to their conjures and pick them up is highly unnecessary. It can still be a dropped skill for friendly use. It can still have all the time limits and cool downs as before. But if the Ele wants the second weapon, where's the harm in allowing him to use it instantly? 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Stallic.2397

[Aurawind.8429]

I was about to make a post on this. 
I am in favor of Ele Kits. 
If and Ele has constant access to a weapon kit. It could fill the small down times on Ele rotations as well as have access to a possible defense when necessary. The moment you pull out a conjure, you HAVE to use everything that is useful in that very moment to just drop it and move on until you pick up the other summon or wait 1 minute for cooldown.
-You would have to make some of the skills less good because you would constantly have more access to them. 
PvP Earth shield cooldowns would need to go WAY up in correspondence to such a change.
And possible damage coefficients would need to be looked at because you would have more uptime on using the skills. 

 

[the krytan assassin.9235]

Droppable conjure weapons are a flawed game mechanic. If they're OP it forces all groups to run multiple ele's to supply to the group. If its underpowered no1 will use them. Fbow, hammer &GS used to be OP and got nerfed hard. 

Solution: make the weapon for ele only. Make them act like kits (maybe with some CD once you leave your conjured weapon)