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Tactics, Quickness, Banners changes for the Balance team


Lan Deathrider.5910

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@Josh Davis.7865, I hope you and the rest of Anet had a good holiday. Forgive me for @'ing you, but please share these ideas with the balance team as I think it is worth their time to consider.

First of all, I am going to assume that you all are going to stay the course with core quickness support on warrior. There was an easier path for that with Berserker. You could have turned Burst of Aggression into an AoE application of quickness and superspeed that then refreshed at 1s for each boon when hitting with a Primal Burst. You can still do that, but it would double up on the core changes I am going to suggest below.

Second of all, the June 28th version of core quickness is forcing the player into too many sources of quickness to get the uptime it would need for a true support. The successful supports don't need to do this which allows them to bring other forms of support (healing, stability, aegis, etc). This needs to be addressed if warrior is to have a meaningful support role. To help achieve this, remove quickness from the banner skills and focus it on Charge and Martial Cadence.

In more detail:

Warhorn:
Charge: Increase the quickness duration from 2s to 4s in all game modes.

Tactics:

When this traitline was reworked it was arbitrarily held back by the new mechanic introduced for it, Soldier's Focus. In order to make this traitline function outside of Vigorous Shouts as a support line this mechanic needs to be deleted.

Marching Orders: Soldier's Focused is now removed. Bursts now grant 3 might to allies in the area when used (not hit). Radius of 600. No CD.
Roaring Reveille: Increase the resistance duration to 5s in all game modes.
Soldier's Comfort: With the removal of Soldier's Focus this would have 0 CD, and I think that should be the case going forward as this relies on Bursts which have their own CDs and a resource requirement. To balance that though the base heal should be halved in all game modes (970 -> 485), but the scaling factor increases with tier of adrenaline spent (so on use, not on hit). Tier 1 would be 0.8 scaling, T2 would be 1.2 scaling, and T3 would be 1.6 scaling. This would result in lots of small heals with no healing power investment, but frequent moderate heals with investment with core having the most value out of it.

Mending Might: This trait should be inverted. Heal allies that you grant might to. Keep the healing and scaling as they are now in all game modes. This will result in less healing for the warrior, but in lots of small chip healing for the party.
Martial Cadence: This trait now grants quickness based on the amount of adrenaline spent (again on use rather than on hit). For Tier 1 it should be 1s, T2 should be 2s, and T3 should be 3s. No CD. This is based on burst attacks which have their own CDs and resource requirements. 

What these changes do is give the warrior the means to have a heal/might/quickness support role, or a build that focuses more on healing and might without the quickness that would be supplemented with either shouts or banners.

Now, Banners...

The overwhelming consensus amongst warriors is that we don't like picking them back up.  From there two styles of banner changes get the most attention: turning them into something like facets or turning them back into bundles but with updated skills. Either way remove the ability to pick them up, and give smaller CDs where applicable (not the elite of course).

I think either approach would work, but may not be feasible with the August 2nd date. By removing quickness from banners and making Charge/Martial Cadence capable of upkeeping quickness I think there is room to make Banners facet-lite without stepping on the new changes to Herald. This would still require work on how to manifest the banners physically in game, one suggestion is to plant a slimmer banner on the back for each of the ones equipped, but I have no idea on whether that is resource intensive to do on the dev side. Regardless if you take this path, its simple theme wise, summon banner with cast time (1s each), pulse boons until the flip over skill is used (keep the same boons and interval, but increase the might stacks to 3 on the banner of Strength). The new flip over skills would destroy the banner and put the skill on CD (20s for the nonelite banners, 120s for Battle Standard):

Strength: Grant 25 might to allies in the area for 8s. Enemies in the area suffer 12 stacks of vulnerability for 8s (halve the stacks on might and vulnerability in competitive game modes)
Discipline: Grant 8s of fury to allies in the area, foes in the area suffer from weakness and cripple for 8s.
Tactics: Heal allies in the area for 4000, (scaling of 1.6) and grant them protection for 8s. Make this a healing skill.
Defense: Grant allies in the area 8s of resolution and  2000 barrier (scaling of 0.8). Enemies in the area are blinded for 2s. AoE stunbreak.
Battle Standard: This would be the current skill, gained on flip over with the same CD. The boons to be pulsed should change as they would make Discipline and Strength redundant. This banner now pulses swiftness (2s), stability (1 stack for 1s), and vigor (2s). Unlike the other banners this summon only persists for 15s. If it is not used prior to the end of the duration it goes on CD automatically.

Double Standards: Your Banners gain +50% boon duration on the boons they give, both on the pulsed intervals and on the flipovers where applicable.

The other approach would be to turn each banner into its own set of bundle skills. If this path is taken, make it so that they are summoned directly into the warrior's hands. Banners would no longer be objects to plant in the ground. I'd like this path, but this would require a lot more work to create 5 distinct bundles. To differentiate these from weapon kits, they would have cast times as they currently do, so a warrior could be denied access to the bundle, but like weapon kits they have 1 internal cooldown before equipping a new one. Make it a 4s ICD to further differentiate them from weapon kits.

The bundles should still pulse their boons on an interval (this is a part of the reason of the 4s ICD above), Strength should be 3 might stacks, Battle Standard should still have it's boons changed out as I stated above. As these would be bundles only one could be equipped at a time. I'm not going to theory craft 25 new skills here, but I'll put some guide lines on what each banner should focus on.

Each should have a AA chain similar to Daredevil's staff AA chain. Skill 2 should be similar to the flipovers above (not Battle Standard, that goes to skill 5). Skill 5 should be a big skill (like Battle Standard's revive/finish) and have a big CD on it.

(Okay I'll do one for you)
Strength: Should focus on Burns, Might, and CC
AA: each strike should do 1s burn, with something like a 0.4 power scaling
2: A 0.25s cast 25 might stacks for 5s. 10s CD
3: Literally just copy Spear of Justice into this slot, burn on initial hit and on pull, but no reveal, nor pulsing burn. 20s CD
4: A 0.5s cast time 3s daze that deals low power damage but 3 stacks of burn for 3s. Again something like a 20s CD
5: A 3/4s cast time AoE 3s knockdown with 3 stacks of burn for 3s, controlled foes take double the burn stacks at double the duration, something like a 25s CD.

Nice distinct theme, lots of burns, lots of CC, and lots of Might.


Discipline: Focus on bleed, fury, weakness, and movement skills. This one should have a few rapid hitting skills that bleed on each strike. Last skill should be a 1200 leap. Should have at least 2 movement skills in it that are ground targeted for easy repositioning. 

Tactics: Focus on regen, one very big heal (number 5) in an aoe, one small aoe heal (number 2), condition cleansing, and some protection. lots of small heals on the AA chain. Think Revenant staff but much more healing focused with no CC.

Defense: Focus on resistance, lots of small barrier on the AA, big barrier application on skill 5, lots of resolution and protection access, some blind access, 1 AoE stunbreak, and 1 AoE mass stability skill.

Battle Standard: Focus on swiftness, stability, a little bit of CC, a little if of healing and barrier, a little bit of burn/bleed, and skill 5 is the current rez/finish on a long CD.

Anyway, that is my vision of those two styles of banners, and yeah it would be a lot of work either way. Personally I think Facet Style banners would be the quickest turnaround, but banner bundles were a part of the original warrior identity and I'd like to see them revamped and worked kind of like what I did for Strength Banner above as an example.

Thanks for reading this far, and if you do share this with the balance team, @Josh Davis.7865, then let them know they are free to come discuss these changes any time.

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Banner facets lesgo. 

Great Tactics suggestions, I believe all of us are in consensus that Soldier's focus needs to go. 

Mending Might healing will be a great asset and will re-enable Phalanx Strength builds. 

As for the trait itself, please increase Phalanx Strength's might application to 7 seconds. 

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31 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Banner facets lesgo. 

Great Tactics suggestions, I believe all of us are in consensus that Soldier's focus needs to go. 

Mending Might healing will be a great asset and will re-enable Phalanx Strength builds. 

As for the trait itself, please increase Phalanx Strength's might application to 7 seconds. 

Yeah, my thinking was things like:

Soldier's Comfort, Empower Allies, Phalanx Strength along with Strength's FGS for a might+healing setup with Zealot's gear for one means of heal/might support with a banner or two and FGJ on the bar.

All Mid for a pure heal build (maybe mid/bot/mid)

Mid/Bot/Top for a heal/might/quick support.

All Top for full offense support. Immob a high priority target in WvW with a ranged cripple, ability to clear barrier for your team, and give quickness out for the spike.

Bot/Bot/Top for a more overall boon based support with less focus on healing.

Phalanx Strength may need it's duration increased, but the original duration was 5s if I recall.

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20 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

I suggested bundles for banners, but I certainly would also support facets. As you said, Lan: anything is better than picking up and dropping them! Anything! This does NOT work in pvp or wvw!

 

Still, excellent tactics rework. 

 

Yeah bundles could work, but I think we just need reliable multi-boon ability. 

As for the Banners, as suggested in @oscuro.9720's thread, perhaps the offensive part of banners can be removed for improved effects in their active skills, like quickness for STR, Superspeed for DISC, Prot/Barr/Stunbreak for DEF, Cleanse/Resi for TACT. 

The idea of a limited time pulsing stab, swiftness and vigor elite that can flip to finish/rally is excellent and we all agree on it. Question is, could you upkeep it for longer and but with lesser boon application that can be augmented via Boon duration.

Short strong pulsing effect vs less strong longer effect (since the flip part remains the same). 

 

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I'm not sure Martial Cadence should base quickness duration on adrenaline spent.  It would limit the usefulness of the trait for Spellbreaker.  I do agree that the trait should have no ICD.  Since the burst already has a CD, no need to be juggling two cooldowns.  The fact that Martial Cadence currently has an ICD that differs from the burst CD makes managing it clunky.  Just take away the trait ICD.

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14 minutes ago, Orion Templar.4589 said:

I'm not sure Martial Cadence should base quickness duration on adrenaline spent.  It would limit the usefulness of the trait for Spellbreaker.  I do agree that the trait should have no ICD.  Since the burst already has a CD, no need to be juggling two cooldowns.  The fact that Martial Cadence currently has an ICD that differs from the burst CD makes managing it clunky.  Just take away the trait ICD.

Spellbreaker can use back to back bursts if they want to, so with 100% BD they too can upkeep a high amount of quickness uptime from Martial Cadence.

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On 7/5/2022 at 9:43 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Josh Davis.7865, I hope you and the rest of Anet had a good holiday. Forgive me for @'ing you, but please share these ideas with the balance team as I think it is worth their time to consider.

First of all, I am going to assume that you all are going to stay the course with core quickness support on warrior. There was an easier path for that with Berserker. You could have turned Burst of Aggression into an AoE application of quickness and superspeed that then refreshed at 1s for each boon when hitting with a Primal Burst. You can still do that, but it would double up on the core changes I am going to suggest below.

Second of all, the June 28th version of core quickness is forcing the player into too many sources of quickness to get the uptime it would need for a true support. The successful supports don't need to do this which allows them to bring other forms of support (healing, stability, aegis, etc). This needs to be addressed if warrior is to have a meaningful support role. To help achieve this, remove quickness from the banner skills and focus it on Charge and Martial Cadence.

In more detail:

Warhorn:
Charge: Increase the quickness duration from 2s to 4s in all game modes.

Tactics:

When this traitline was reworked it was arbitrarily held back by the new mechanic introduced for it, Soldier's Focus. In order to make this traitline function outside of Vigorous Shouts as a support line this mechanic needs to be deleted.

Marching Orders: Soldier's Focused is now removed. Bursts now grant 3 might to allies in the area when used (not hit). Radius of 600. No CD.
Roaring Reveille: Increase the resistance duration to 5s in all game modes.
Soldier's Comfort: With the removal of Soldier's Focus this would have 0 CD, and I think that should be the case going forward as this relies on Bursts which have their own CDs and a resource requirement. To balance that though the base heal should be halved in all game modes (970 -> 485), but the scaling factor increases with tier of adrenaline spent (so on use, not on hit). Tier 1 would be 0.8 scaling, T2 would be 1.2 scaling, and T3 would be 1.6 scaling. This would result in lots of small heals with no healing power investment, but frequent moderate heals with investment with core having the most value out of it.

Mending Might: This trait should be inverted. Heal allies that you grant might to. Keep the healing and scaling as they are now in all game modes. This will result in less healing for the warrior, but in lots of small chip healing for the party.
Martial Cadence: This trait now grants quickness based on the amount of adrenaline spent (again on use rather than on hit). For Tier 1 it should be 1s, T2 should be 2s, and T3 should be 3s. No CD. This is based on burst attacks which have their own CDs and resource requirements. 

What these changes do is give the warrior the means to have a heal/might/quickness support role, or a build that focuses more on healing and might without the quickness that would be supplemented with either shouts or banners.

Now, Banners...

The overwhelming consensus amongst warriors is that we don't like picking them back up.  From there two styles of banner changes get the most attention: turning them into something like facets or turning them back into bundles but with updated skills. Either way remove the ability to pick them up, and give smaller CDs where applicable (not the elite of course).

I think either approach would work, but may not be feasible with the August 2nd date. By removing quickness from banners and making Charge/Martial Cadence capable of upkeeping quickness I think there is room to make Banners facet-lite without stepping on the new changes to Herald. This would still require work on how to manifest the banners physically in game, one suggestion is to plant a slimmer banner on the back for each of the ones equipped, but I have no idea on whether that is resource intensive to do on the dev side. Regardless if you take this path, its simple theme wise, summon banner with cast time (1s each), pulse boons until the flip over skill is used (keep the same boons and interval, but increase the might stacks to 3 on the banner of Strength). The new flip over skills would destroy the banner and put the skill on CD (20s for the nonelite banners, 120s for Battle Standard):

Strength: Grant 25 might to allies in the area for 8s. Enemies in the area suffer 12 stacks of vulnerability for 8s (halve the stacks on might and vulnerability in competitive game modes)
Discipline: Grant 8s of fury to allies in the area, foes in the area suffer from weakness and cripple for 8s.
Tactics: Heal allies in the area for 4000, (scaling of 1.6) and grant them protection for 8s. Make this a healing skill.
Defense: Grant allies in the area 8s of resolution and  2000 barrier (scaling of 0.8). Enemies in the area are blinded for 2s. AoE stunbreak.
Battle Standard: This would be the current skill, gained on flip over with the same CD. The boons to be pulsed should change as they would make Discipline and Strength redundant. This banner now pulses swiftness (2s), stability (1 stack for 1s), and vigor (2s). Unlike the other banners this summon only persists for 15s. If it is not used prior to the end of the duration it goes on CD automatically.

Double Standards: Your Banners gain +50% boon duration on the boons they give, both on the pulsed intervals and on the flipovers where applicable.

The other approach would be to turn each banner into its own set of bundle skills. If this path is taken, make it so that they are summoned directly into the warrior's hands. Banners would no longer be objects to plant in the ground. I'd like this path, but this would require a lot more work to create 5 distinct bundles. To differentiate these from weapon kits, they would have cast times as they currently do, so a warrior could be denied access to the bundle, but like weapon kits they have 1 internal cooldown before equipping a new one. Make it a 4s ICD to further differentiate them from weapon kits.

The bundles should still pulse their boons on an interval (this is a part of the reason of the 4s ICD above), Strength should be 3 might stacks, Battle Standard should still have it's boons changed out as I stated above. As these would be bundles only one could be equipped at a time. I'm not going to theory craft 25 new skills here, but I'll put some guide lines on what each banner should focus on.

Each should have a AA chain similar to Daredevil's staff AA chain. Skill 2 should be similar to the flipovers above (not Battle Standard, that goes to skill 5). Skill 5 should be a big skill (like Battle Standard's revive/finish) and have a big CD on it.

(Okay I'll do one for you)
Strength: Should focus on Burns, Might, and CC
AA: each strike should do 1s burn, with something like a 0.4 power scaling
2: A 0.25s cast 25 might stacks for 5s. 10s CD
3: Literally just copy Spear of Justice into this slot, burn on initial hit and on pull, but no reveal, nor pulsing burn. 20s CD
4: A 0.5s cast time 3s daze that deals low power damage but 3 stacks of burn for 3s. Again something like a 20s CD
5: A 3/4s cast time AoE 3s knockdown with 3 stacks of burn for 3s, controlled foes take double the burn stacks at double the duration, something like a 25s CD.

Nice distinct theme, lots of burns, lots of CC, and lots of Might.


Discipline: Focus on bleed, fury, weakness, and movement skills. This one should have a few rapid hitting skills that bleed on each strike. Last skill should be a 1200 leap. Should have at least 2 movement skills in it that are ground targeted for easy repositioning. 

Tactics: Focus on regen, one very big heal (number 5) in an aoe, one small aoe heal (number 2), condition cleansing, and some protection. lots of small heals on the AA chain. Think Revenant staff but much more healing focused with no CC.

Defense: Focus on resistance, lots of small barrier on the AA, big barrier application on skill 5, lots of resolution and protection access, some blind access, 1 AoE stunbreak, and 1 AoE mass stability skill.

Battle Standard: Focus on swiftness, stability, a little bit of CC, a little if of healing and barrier, a little bit of burn/bleed, and skill 5 is the current rez/finish on a long CD.

Anyway, that is my vision of those two styles of banners, and yeah it would be a lot of work either way. Personally I think Facet Style banners would be the quickest turnaround, but banner bundles were a part of the original warrior identity and I'd like to see them revamped and worked kind of like what I did for Strength Banner above as an example.

Thanks for reading this far, and if you do share this with the balance team, @Josh Davis.7865, then let them know they are free to come discuss these changes any time.

This. Is. Brilliant.

 

Tremendous work, Lan!

 

ANet would be very wise to listen. 

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 Every fricken time you come up with designs and thoughts that just..... gah! It's always an absolute blast to  read your suggestions man! 

EDIT: I feel ANet would get more mileage out of removing banners altogether, focusing on Shouts as being the new support focus, and adding weapon kits--banners can be part of a new elite spec instead.

I.... feel like a cad for talking about this, but the biggest issue with easy access to quickness is the fact that Greatsword & Axes are overtuned compared to other Warrior weapons. There's no incentive to use other weapons that become more accessible due to having quickness simply because Greatsword & Axes are then raised higher. While addressing the quickness/support problem they also need to address the fact that the "master of weapons" largely is confined to 3-4 weapon sets out of a potential 36 combinations.

Two questions:

  1. Tactics Rework having Healing on Burst--what are your thoughts regarding barrier instead? I'm a fan of Healing over Barrier (lord knows Warriors need some kind of increased survivability) but I worry the powers-that-be would disregard it out of hand because "it's too much like guardian".
  2. Would the reworks for Tactics you listed be linked to "on burst" or "on hitting with a burst"--similar to other Warrior traits?

 

Edited by Geoff Fey.1035
Removing non-constructive blathering
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10 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 Every fricken time you come up with designs and thoughts that just..... gah! It's always an absolute blast to  read your suggestions man! 

Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

10 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

EDIT: I feel ANet would get more mileage out of removing banners altogether, focusing on Shouts as being the new support focus, and adding weapon kits--banners can be part of a new elite spec instead.

I.... feel like a cad for talking about this, but the biggest issue with easy access to quickness is the fact that Greatsword & Axes are overtuned compared to other Warrior weapons. There's no incentive to use other weapons that become more accessible due to having quickness simply because Greatsword & Axes are then raised higher. While addressing the quickness/support problem they also need to address the fact that the "master of weapons" largely is confined to 3-4 weapon sets out of a potential 36 combinations.

Quibble: Its not that Axe and GS are overtuned, its that the rest are neglected.

10 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Two questions:

  1. Tactics Rework having Healing on Burst--what are your thoughts regarding barrier instead? I'm a fan of Healing over Barrier (lord knows Warriors need some kind of increased survivability) but I worry the powers-that-be would disregard it out of hand because "it's too much like guardian".
  2. Would the reworks for Tactics you listed be linked to "on burst" or "on hitting with a burst"--similar to other Warrior traits?

 

Anet seems intent on Warrior healing back the damage they take. That and I think barrier belongs on Defense Banner to compliment the healing from Tactics.

I stated in there several times that they should be on burst USE rather than burst HIT for a reason.

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Thank you!

Spoiler


1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Quibble: Its not that Axe and GS are overtuned, its that the rest are neglected.

Fair point--the others are highly neglected. Hammer could be retuned to almost be as damaging as Greatsword (say, 85-90% of the damage) and then it's primary allure is instead of being a "dodging" weapon, it's a "controlling" (rather than blocking) weapon. The lesser damage is through having less active defenses and has more CC impact in combat.

 

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I stated in there several times that they should be on burst USE rather than burst HIT for a reason.

Most of Warrior's traits need to be on use for them to be relevant--just wanted to check (the powers-that-be seem to trend towards "use" and "hit" as the same thing, however erroneous).

 

 

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On 7/5/2022 at 9:43 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Josh Davis.7865, I hope you and the rest of Anet had a good holiday. Forgive me for @'ing you, but please share these ideas with the balance team as I think it is worth their time to consider.

First of all, I am going to assume that you all are going to stay the course with core quickness support on warrior. There was an easier path for that with Berserker. You could have turned Burst of Aggression into an AoE application of quickness and superspeed that then refreshed at 1s for each boon when hitting with a Primal Burst. You can still do that, but it would double up on the core changes I am going to suggest below.

Second of all, the June 28th version of core quickness is forcing the player into too many sources of quickness to get the uptime it would need for a true support. The successful supports don't need to do this which allows them to bring other forms of support (healing, stability, aegis, etc). This needs to be addressed if warrior is to have a meaningful support role. To help achieve this, remove quickness from the banner skills and focus it on Charge and Martial Cadence.

In more detail:

Warhorn:
Charge: Increase the quickness duration from 2s to 4s in all game modes.

Tactics:

When this traitline was reworked it was arbitrarily held back by the new mechanic introduced for it, Soldier's Focus. In order to make this traitline function outside of Vigorous Shouts as a support line this mechanic needs to be deleted.

Marching Orders: Soldier's Focused is now removed. Bursts now grant 3 might to allies in the area when used (not hit). Radius of 600. No CD.
Roaring Reveille: Increase the resistance duration to 5s in all game modes.
Soldier's Comfort: With the removal of Soldier's Focus this would have 0 CD, and I think that should be the case going forward as this relies on Bursts which have their own CDs and a resource requirement. To balance that though the base heal should be halved in all game modes (970 -> 485), but the scaling factor increases with tier of adrenaline spent (so on use, not on hit). Tier 1 would be 0.8 scaling, T2 would be 1.2 scaling, and T3 would be 1.6 scaling. This would result in lots of small heals with no healing power investment, but frequent moderate heals with investment with core having the most value out of it.

Mending Might: This trait should be inverted. Heal allies that you grant might to. Keep the healing and scaling as they are now in all game modes. This will result in less healing for the warrior, but in lots of small chip healing for the party.
Martial Cadence: This trait now grants quickness based on the amount of adrenaline spent (again on use rather than on hit). For Tier 1 it should be 1s, T2 should be 2s, and T3 should be 3s. No CD. This is based on burst attacks which have their own CDs and resource requirements. 

What these changes do is give the warrior the means to have a heal/might/quickness support role, or a build that focuses more on healing and might without the quickness that would be supplemented with either shouts or banners.

Now, Banners...

The overwhelming consensus amongst warriors is that we don't like picking them back up.  From there two styles of banner changes get the most attention: turning them into something like facets or turning them back into bundles but with updated skills. Either way remove the ability to pick them up, and give smaller CDs where applicable (not the elite of course).

I think either approach would work, but may not be feasible with the August 2nd date. By removing quickness from banners and making Charge/Martial Cadence capable of upkeeping quickness I think there is room to make Banners facet-lite without stepping on the new changes to Herald. This would still require work on how to manifest the banners physically in game, one suggestion is to plant a slimmer banner on the back for each of the ones equipped, but I have no idea on whether that is resource intensive to do on the dev side. Regardless if you take this path, its simple theme wise, summon banner with cast time (1s each), pulse boons until the flip over skill is used (keep the same boons and interval, but increase the might stacks to 3 on the banner of Strength). The new flip over skills would destroy the banner and put the skill on CD (20s for the nonelite banners, 120s for Battle Standard):

Strength: Grant 25 might to allies in the area for 8s. Enemies in the area suffer 12 stacks of vulnerability for 8s (halve the stacks on might and vulnerability in competitive game modes)
Discipline: Grant 8s of fury to allies in the area, foes in the area suffer from weakness and cripple for 8s.
Tactics: Heal allies in the area for 4000, (scaling of 1.6) and grant them protection for 8s. Make this a healing skill.
Defense: Grant allies in the area 8s of resolution and  2000 barrier (scaling of 0.8). Enemies in the area are blinded for 2s. AoE stunbreak.
Battle Standard: This would be the current skill, gained on flip over with the same CD. The boons to be pulsed should change as they would make Discipline and Strength redundant. This banner now pulses swiftness (2s), stability (1 stack for 1s), and vigor (2s). Unlike the other banners this summon only persists for 15s. If it is not used prior to the end of the duration it goes on CD automatically.

Double Standards: Your Banners gain +50% boon duration on the boons they give, both on the pulsed intervals and on the flipovers where applicable.

The other approach would be to turn each banner into its own set of bundle skills. If this path is taken, make it so that they are summoned directly into the warrior's hands. Banners would no longer be objects to plant in the ground. I'd like this path, but this would require a lot more work to create 5 distinct bundles. To differentiate these from weapon kits, they would have cast times as they currently do, so a warrior could be denied access to the bundle, but like weapon kits they have 1 internal cooldown before equipping a new one. Make it a 4s ICD to further differentiate them from weapon kits.

The bundles should still pulse their boons on an interval (this is a part of the reason of the 4s ICD above), Strength should be 3 might stacks, Battle Standard should still have it's boons changed out as I stated above. As these would be bundles only one could be equipped at a time. I'm not going to theory craft 25 new skills here, but I'll put some guide lines on what each banner should focus on.

Each should have a AA chain similar to Daredevil's staff AA chain. Skill 2 should be similar to the flipovers above (not Battle Standard, that goes to skill 5). Skill 5 should be a big skill (like Battle Standard's revive/finish) and have a big CD on it.

(Okay I'll do one for you)
Strength: Should focus on Burns, Might, and CC
AA: each strike should do 1s burn, with something like a 0.4 power scaling
2: A 0.25s cast 25 might stacks for 5s. 10s CD
3: Literally just copy Spear of Justice into this slot, burn on initial hit and on pull, but no reveal, nor pulsing burn. 20s CD
4: A 0.5s cast time 3s daze that deals low power damage but 3 stacks of burn for 3s. Again something like a 20s CD
5: A 3/4s cast time AoE 3s knockdown with 3 stacks of burn for 3s, controlled foes take double the burn stacks at double the duration, something like a 25s CD.

Nice distinct theme, lots of burns, lots of CC, and lots of Might.


Discipline: Focus on bleed, fury, weakness, and movement skills. This one should have a few rapid hitting skills that bleed on each strike. Last skill should be a 1200 leap. Should have at least 2 movement skills in it that are ground targeted for easy repositioning. 

Tactics: Focus on regen, one very big heal (number 5) in an aoe, one small aoe heal (number 2), condition cleansing, and some protection. lots of small heals on the AA chain. Think Revenant staff but much more healing focused with no CC.

Defense: Focus on resistance, lots of small barrier on the AA, big barrier application on skill 5, lots of resolution and protection access, some blind access, 1 AoE stunbreak, and 1 AoE mass stability skill.

Battle Standard: Focus on swiftness, stability, a little bit of CC, a little if of healing and barrier, a little bit of burn/bleed, and skill 5 is the current rez/finish on a long CD.

Anyway, that is my vision of those two styles of banners, and yeah it would be a lot of work either way. Personally I think Facet Style banners would be the quickest turnaround, but banner bundles were a part of the original warrior identity and I'd like to see them revamped and worked kind of like what I did for Strength Banner above as an example.

Thanks for reading this far, and if you do share this with the balance team, @Josh Davis.7865, then let them know they are free to come discuss these changes any time.

Lan,  I was trying to come up with some ideas to augment yours and transform Tactics into a better boon support line.  Here goes:  (Numbers here are anticipated values for competitive modes).

 

Leg Specialist:

immobilize (1s) an enemy when you apply a movement-impairing condition (CD 10s).

Grant boons to allies when you immobilize an enemy: Fury 8s, Quickness 2s

 

More sources of quickness; allows Warrior to "overcap" on quickness if that is the desired goal, or merely provides more build diversity options.

Also, I would add the +7% damage modifier against foes with movement-impairing conditions to Opportunist in Arms.

 

Warrior's Cunning:

Grant Barrier (1000 HP) and Stability (1 stack for 4s) to allies when you disable a foe

 

The effects here are pretty arbitrary; you could just as easily do some combination of vigor, resistance, prot, resolution, etc.  This is just what I'd pick.  Warrior currently has no source of AOE Stab, so this could be a good spot for it.

 

Shrug it Off:

Increase the healing (maybe 500 base) per condition cleansed; make it apply to ALL conditions, not just damaging ones.

 

Phalanx Strength:

In addition to its current might-sharing properties, also grants protection (3s) to allies when you critically strike a foe (10s CD)

 

Analysis:

These changes would essentially create 3 tracks within the traitline:

1.) Quickness/Offense: Leg Specialist, Empower allies, and Martial Cadence

2.) Healing: Soldier's comfort, Shrug It Off, Vigorous Shouts

3.) Boons: Roaring Reveille, Warrior's Cunning, and Phalanx Strength

 

I anticipate there could be a fair bit of "mixing and matching" between the traits to create both powerful solo and team-oriented builds, which would be a good thing.

 

One critique to your OP:  I think Mending Might should still heal the Warrior, but it would be a good thing if it healed our allies more (e.g., keep 50 hp base healing for warrior but increase to 100 base healing for allies).  This would allow warrior to lean heavily into a might-support role without completely gutting his own self-sustain.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Lan,  I was trying to come up with some ideas to augment yours and transform Tactics into a better boon support line.  Here goes:  (Numbers here are anticipated values for competitive modes).

 

Leg Specialist:

immobilize (1s) an enemy when you apply a movement-impairing condition (CD 10s).

Grant boons to allies when you immobilize an enemy: Fury 8s, Quickness 2s

 

More sources of quickness; allows Warrior to "overcap" on quickness if that is the desired goal, or merely provides more build diversity options.

Also, I would add the +7% damage modifier against foes with movement-impairing conditions to Opportunist in Arms.

 

Warrior's Cunning:

Grant Barrier (1000 HP) and Stability (1 stack for 4s) to allies when you disable a foe

 

The effects here are pretty arbitrary; you could just as easily do some combination of vigor, resistance, prot, resolution, etc.  This is just what I'd pick.  Warrior currently has no source of AOE Stab, so this could be a good spot for it.

 

Shrug it Off:

Increase the healing (maybe 500 base) per condition cleansed; make it apply to ALL conditions, not just damaging ones.

 

Phalanx Strength:

In addition to its current might-sharing properties, also grants protection (3s) to allies when you critically strike a foe (10s CD)

I like the Shrug it Off and PS suggestions, but not to keen on the other ones tbh.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Analysis:

These changes would essentially create 3 tracks within the traitline:

1.) Quickness/Offense: Leg Specialist, Empower allies, and Martial Cadence

2.) Healing: Soldier's comfort, Shrug It Off, Vigorous Shouts

3.) Boons: Roaring Reveille, Warrior's Cunning, and Phalanx Strength

 

I anticipate there could be a fair bit of "mixing and matching" between the traits to create both powerful solo and team-oriented builds, which would be a good thing.

 

One critique to your OP:  I think Mending Might should still heal the Warrior, but it would be a good thing if it healed our allies more (e.g., keep 50 hp base healing for warrior but increase to 100 base healing for allies).  This would allow warrior to lean heavily into a might-support role without completely gutting his own self-sustain.

 

 

 

You misread it then. It would still heal the warrior, but only for the might it applies to itself. Unless a skill or trait says 'other allies' then it includes you in the list of allies, as you are of course your own ally. I would be whomever the warrior grants might to would get the current amount of healing in the relevant game mode, the warrior included. It would basically be a mini FGS+MMR but for the party instead of just the warrior and without the endurance gain.

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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I like the Shrug it Off and PS suggestions, but not to keen on the other ones tbh.

Any particular reason why not?

 

The current leg specialist and warrior's cunning are random selfish dmg increases (and not very good/fairly situational ones, at that). That really doesn't gel with the rest of the traits as they stand, and even less with the stated goal of team-oriented play that is supposed to be what Tactics is all about.

 

ANet wants to remove unique modifiers and move everyone to participating in the boon meta. Fine. But that means Warrior needs various ways to provide a wide assortment of boons. Adjusting some of the traits in Tactics to be more boon-oriented would be a sound way to approach it. 

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Referring to the changes you have suggested for Martial Cadence and Soldier's Comfort:

Scaling effects to Burst skill tier is not the silver bullet you think it is. Berserker is using a T1 burst every ~1.5s. Spellbreaker is using a T1 burst every ~3s. Bladesworn is using a T3 burst every ~10s. 

Put another way, Berserserker is 2x more effective at utilizing this trait than Spellbreaker, and ~2.2x more effective than Bladesworn. 

Put another way, to make this trait balanced for Berserker makes it unplayable for Warrior's other 2 elite specs. Even if you tweak the scaling per tier it still totally screws over Spb. Not to mention the total flavour fail of Berserker being Warrior's indisputably best spec for supporting a group.

Tying effects to Bursts are totally fine for something the devs fully expect Warrior to permanently upkeep, like Might or Berserker's Power. Everyone expects Warrior to permanently upkeeping 3 stacks of BP regardless of how they accomplish it - that's fine. What's not fine is to make Bladesworn upkeep party Quickness with their very clearly stated goal of making boon-dps builds take boon duration, pZerk would be giga overcapping with full Berserker's/Assassin's gear. Same concept with healing. 

I hate the ICD of Marching Orders too, but it had a good reason to have that ICD. Core Warrior just needs more options available to it baseline if they want to make a Support Warrior work. Or an Elite Spec dedicated to the concept. 

Edited by Jzaku.9765
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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 

You misread it then. It would still heal the warrior, but only for the might it applies to itself. Unless a skill or trait says 'other allies' then it includes you in the list of allies, as you are of course your own ally. I would be whomever the warrior grants might to would get the current amount of healing in the relevant game mode, the warrior included. It would basically be a mini FGS+MMR but for the party instead of just the warrior and without the endurance gain.

Ah ok, I see what you're getting at now. Yes, that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying. 

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39 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Any particular reason why not?

 

The current leg specialist and warrior's cunning are random selfish dmg increases (and not very good/fairly situational ones, at that). That really doesn't gel with the rest of the traits as they stand, and even less with the stated goal of team-oriented play that is supposed to be what Tactics is all about.

 

ANet wants to remove unique modifiers and move everyone to participating in the boon meta. Fine. But that means Warrior needs various ways to provide a wide assortment of boons. Adjusting some of the traits in Tactics to be more boon-oriented would be a sound way to approach it. 

As far as LS and WC, while they are selfish at first glance there is a lot of party utility there. That immob on LS ruins people's day in a small scale skirmish in WvW, I've used it myself to lock down targets with rifle and load them up with vulnerability to create a scenario for the target to get spiked hard.

The anti barrier aspect of Warrior's Cunning has lots of value for the party as the warrior is able to cleave the barrier away so the rest can dps the target. For PvP Warrior's Cunning needs it's nerf revoked. It was nerfed prior to Feb2020, but post Feb2020 it should be increased. Maybe not to +50% versus barrier, but at least +25%.

So, yeah I think they are 'fine' but that is from a higher altitude viewpoint where multiple things are considered from a party dynamic. They are on their face selfish, but ultimately they aren't because they allow your team to do more than they would otherwise, which is in of itself support.

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47 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Referring to the changes you have suggested for Martial Cadence and Soldier's Comfort:

Scaling effects to Burst skill tier is not the silver bullet you think it is. Berserker is using a T1 burst every ~1.5s. Spellbreaker is using a T1 burst every ~3s. Bladesworn is using a T3 burst every ~10s. 

Put another way, Berserserker is 2x more effective at utilizing this trait than Spellbreaker, and ~2.2x more effective than Bladesworn. 

Put another way, to make this trait balanced for Berserker makes it unplayable for Warrior's other 2 elite specs. Even if you tweak the scaling per tier it still totally screws over Spb. Not to mention the total flavour fail of Berserker being Warrior's indisputably best spec for supporting a group.

Tying effects to Bursts are totally fine for something the devs fully expect Warrior to permanently upkeep, like Might or Berserker's Power. Everyone expects Warrior to permanently upkeeping 3 stacks of BP regardless of how they accomplish it - that's fine. What's not fine is to make Bladesworn upkeep party Quickness with their very clearly stated goal of making boon-dps builds take boon duration, pZerk would be giga overcapping with full Berserker's/Assassin's gear. Same concept with healing. 

I hate the ICD of Marching Orders too, but it had a good reason to have that ICD. Core Warrior just needs more options available to it baseline if they want to make a Support Warrior work. Or an Elite Spec dedicated to the concept. 

BSW, Spellbreaker, and Berserker without BD would not be able to upkeep Quickness with the changes I suggested.

There is a reason why I suggested 1s quickness on a T1 burst and halving the healing on Soldier's Comfort with Healing Power scaling on the tier. It would be okay on Berserker for a solo build, but not for a build for raids, FotM, or Strikes, and certainly not PvP/WvW. It would be okay on a Spellbreaker, it would be okay on a BSW (lol every 10s). But it would shine on core warrior, and on any of the others with actual stat investment.

Believe it or not I do consider such things when I make suggestions. I did ere on the higher side I will admit, but that can be tuned easily. What is more important is laying  the foundation for something more functional and fun.

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48 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Ah ok, I see what you're getting at now. Yes, that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying. 

Yeah. Lots of little chip healing that warrior is known for but given to the party at a lesser amount. I think it would be a good and cool thing to see while also not completely removing it's own sustain.

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31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

As far as LS and WC, while they are selfish at first glance there is a lot of party utility there. That immob on LS ruins people's day in a small scale skirmish in WvW, I've used it myself to lock down targets with rifle and load them up with vulnerability to create a scenario for the target to get spiked hard.

The anti barrier aspect of Warrior's Cunning has lots of value for the party as the warrior is able to cleave the barrier away so the rest can dps the target. For PvP Warrior's Cunning needs it's nerf revoked. It was nerfed prior to Feb2020, but post Feb2020 it should be increased. Maybe not to +50% versus barrier, but at least +25%.

So, yeah I think they are 'fine' but that is from a higher altitude viewpoint where multiple things are considered from a party dynamic. They are on their face selfish, but ultimately they aren't because they allow your team to do more than they would otherwise, which is in of itself support.

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree that the current traits are ideal for the trait line.

 

The LS that I proposed has the same immob (and a slightly lower CD), so that's a wash. The damage mod on the current form is purely selfish, whereas the boon version benefits the whole party.

 

WC is effective only vs foes with barrier and only helps the group if YOU are the one doing the DPS to the target. The WC I proposed can be used against ANY foe, barrier or no, and grants boons (or barrier, in my example) that benefits the whole party. That is unequivocally more utility than the current WC provides.

 

I do think warrior needs damage mods, and I would definitely advocate for them to end up in trait lines like Arms. But I think doubling down on the boon provision aspect of Tactics is the way to go in order to create viable warrior supports (unless they rework an elite spec to be the support spec, which I would kinda prefer that they didn't). Changes like these help flesh out the scaffolding for a tactics rework you laid out in your OP. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

BSW, Spellbreaker, and Berserker without BD would not be able to upkeep Quickness with the changes I suggested.

There is a reason why I suggested 1s quickness on a T1 burst and halving the healing on Soldier's Comfort with Healing Power scaling on the tier. It would be okay on Berserker for a solo build, but not for a build for raids, FotM, or Strikes, and certainly not PvP/WvW. It would be okay on a Spellbreaker, it would be okay on a BSW (lol every 10s). But it would shine on core warrior, and on any of the others with actual stat investment.

Believe it or not I do consider such things when I make suggestions. I did ere on the higher side I will admit, but that can be tuned easily. What is more important is laying  the foundation for something more functional and fun.

Read the post again. The issue I am pointing out is that Berserker will far outstrip anything the other 2 elite specs can do with the trait. At your suggested 1/2/3s Quickness durations, Berserker would need ~50% boon duration to cap purely with this trait alone - and Spellbreaker and Bladesworn would need ~200% and ~233% boon duration respectively, as in, totally impossible. Same concept applies to healing. 

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I enjoyed alot of suggestions here. The only thing I disagree with is turning the tactic banner into a healing skill.

All classes have 4 healing skills in core and Anet made sure to keep the number of healing skills consistent. Giving warrior a 5th healing skill and removing an utility skill for it is something that I don't think is very realistic to expect.

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4 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I enjoyed alot of suggestions here. The only thing I disagree with is turning the tactic banner into a healing skill.

All classes have 4 healing skills in core and Anet made sure to keep the number of healing skills consistent. Giving warrior a 5th healing skill and removing an utility skill for it is something that I don't think is very realistic to expect.

That suggestion has more to do with the fact that there should be lots of large healing from it, and I did not want it to be a second 'healing skill.'

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