Stop nerfing core traits when balancing a single elite spec

[cat.8975]

Did condi core guard need a nerf? No.
Did cDH need a nerf? No.
Did cWB need a nerf? No.
Did cFB need a nerf? No.
Did cQB need a nerf? Yes.

Do you see the problem here?

Now to be a little more productive with the post, here are some ideas:

• Amplified Wrath: revert the nerf, putting it back to 15% in PvE
• F1 Tome: Halve the current burn durations
• Legendary Lore: Increase the bonus burn duration from 20% to 100%
• Mantra of Flame: Increase base burn duration to 10s (from 4s)
• Stalwart Speed: Add Protection to the list of boons that proc this trait

Justification:

• Pure DPS cfb should feel a little more "forced" to take the flame mantra over other utilities. This creates a more meaningful choice for the player, as they will have to decide between damage and party support.
• Cutting the tome burns in half and buffing Legendary Lore creates a clear distinction between the damage builds and support builds. While buffing flame mantra will still buff cqb, this is easily offset by the significant reduction to tome burns.
• The Stalwart Speed change is just to maybe fix its current uselessness. All of the hb/qb builds are currently running Weighty Terms now because aegis/stab are too difficult to apply after the Mantra of Solace change.

Additional wacky idea:
Rework Quickfire OR Stoic Demeanor into something that buffs mantras in cool/meaningful ways. This could be a way to give aegis back to the heal, along with any other neat effects/boons/condis for the other mantras. This will also directly compete with Loremaster for the cqb and cfb builds, but hb would have a much easier time justifying it. While one could argue that aegis trivializes some mechanics, running a HB already means you're trying to cheese encounters in most cases (plus the HB would still lose out on permanent f2 passive whenever they pop into the tome).

Edited July 5, 2022 by cat.8975
damage -> duration

[MrTJpwnz.4710]

Yeah the amplified wrath nerf is kinda uncalled for. Condi Firebrand builds are too strong, and should be nerfed specifically, meaning not nerfing other specs in the process.

[supporthero.4520]

Someone listen to these people, they know what they are talking about.
Leave Condi Guard alone, when Firebrand is the issue.

[Carnifex.3275]

Exactly why i created the topic about Willbender. It sickens me that other specs have to suffer because of something that was intented probably for FB... My bench went fom 38k to 32k at best on cWB. So now WB spec is good for what? PvP only?

Edited July 5, 2022 by Dave.6819

[Antina.5973]

Amplified wrath nerf was a weird attempt at nerfing what, qfb? Now every condi dps spec for guardian is meh on top of power builds being pretty depressing.

[Kuya.6495]

Didn't you know? Guard mains aren't allowed to complain because HeAlBrAnD OP!

Edited July 5, 2022 by Kuya.6495

[otto.5684]

Man, that requires too much work. Do you think a dev access what the issue is, reads all the relevant traits/utilities then make a decision impacting just the over performing/under performing part(s)? GL

[Xaylin.1860]

Maybe, just maybe, Quickness access on FB is too easy resulting in too easy access to damage related traits at the same time. Which means that instead of buffing related traits, you'd might want to shave Quickness a bit to make it harder to maintain it in damage gear without support focussed traits. 

 

And just maybe Lore Master is an issue, providing FB with too much damage in combination with core traits 😉 Because I doubt most people take it for healing ticks or the occasional Aegis.

 

So I'm not sure I really  agree with most of those suggestions. I see the issues elsewhere. I'm all for for buffing Legendary Lore, though.

[Kuya.6495]

Easy access to damage related traits? No, the dps traits on firebrand were bad:

 

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/guardian/condition-quickness-firebrand/

 

You took Liberator's vow over unrelenting criticism, you took weighty terms over legendary lore and you took loremaster over quickfire or stoic demeanor on quicknesss firebrand. All these traits were meant to help with quickness uptime over dps. Probably, because thanks to firebrand runes, you didn't need boon duration for quickness. 

 

Also:

 

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks

 

quickness fb does 29k dps now. Quickness harb does 31k. And you know what? People are not going to shut up about firebrand. 

 

And why is quickness uptime on fb still called easy? You needed feel my wrath, mantra of potence and the low cd of mantra of solace to upkeep quickness. 3 utilities, off cooldown. Heal alac mech? It can do perma alac by just auto attacking. 

[Xaylin.1860]

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Easy access to damage related traits? No, the dps traits on firebrand were bad

Firebrand can afford to pick damage related traits in core - because we are talking about core traits being nerfed because of FB - while providing permanent (or high enough) group Quickness because Quickness access in Firebrand is so easy. I've not been talking about damage traits on FB.

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You took Liberator's vow over unrelenting criticism, you took weighty terms over legendary lore and you took loremaster over quickfire or stoic demeanor on quicknesss firebrand. All these traits were meant to help with quickness uptime over dps.

While Weighty Terms does indirectly increase your Quickness access, Stalwart Speed is the Quickness trait on that tier. Lore Master has absolutely nothing to do with group Quickness when not picking Stalward Speed. And while Quickfire is related to Quickness, it is actually a damage trait and doesn't help you with Quickness uptime anyway. However, it should indeed be THE damage option for Quickness focussed builds. But you won't pick it. Because Lore Master brings some nice damage in combination with Radiance (the now nerfed Amplified Wrath) and Virtues (Permeating Wrath). Which means - when talking about not nerfing core instead of FB - that Lore Master has to be looked at.

Now, maybe ANet wanted to nerf cWB at the same time? Who really knows. Regardless, nerfing Amplified Wrath probably isn't the best approach. It might be the easiest one, though.

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

quickness fb does 29k dps now. Quickness harb does 31k. And you know what? People are not going to shut up about firebrand. 

That's not what the OP said. At least that's not what I've got from the post. And that's also not what I've said. 😉

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

And why is quickness uptime on fb still called easy? You needed feel my wrath, mantra of potence and the low cd of mantra of solace to upkeep quickness. 3 utilities, off cooldown. Heal alac mech? It can do perma alac by just auto attacking. 

It is still easy and more versatile when compared to set ups of other classes that can provide group Quickness. And: Busted builds like HAM are not really great benchmarks when justifying imbalance in other places.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[otto.5684]

3 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Easy access to damage related traits? No, the dps traits on firebrand were bad:

 

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/guardian/condition-quickness-firebrand/

 

You took Liberator's vow over unrelenting criticism, you took weighty terms over legendary lore and you took loremaster over quickfire or stoic demeanor on quicknesss firebrand. All these traits were meant to help with quickness uptime over dps. Probably, because thanks to firebrand runes, you didn't need boon duration for quickness. 

 

Also:

 

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks

 

quickness fb does 29k dps now. Quickness harb does 31k. And you know what? People are not going to shut up about firebrand. 

 

And why is quickness uptime on fb still called easy? You needed feel my wrath, mantra of potence and the low cd of mantra of solace to upkeep quickness. 3 utilities, off cooldown. Heal alac mech? It can do perma alac by just auto attacking. 

The FB dps nerfs are not as dramatic as some people made them seem. Full dps could get 1k-2k more damage, but I think quick brand with 29k is in okay range. Will wait to see where condi WB ends-up. For WB, anything below 38k is too low IMO, assuming 39k is the highest condi benchmark. And DH should fall between power mechanist and SlB, which I know it won’t.

[Antina.5973]

7 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

It is still easy and more versatile when compared to set ups of other classes that can provide group Quickness. And: Busted builds like HAM are not really great benchmarks when justifying imbalance in other places.

But versatility is great and more builds should have this. HAM sure is versatile, but at the same time so AFK, it is sad we have it as comparison. People complain about QFB being too easy, but I personally had some new players who were forgetting to press the 3 buttons on both QFB and HFB, especially when learning new role in raids. Meanwhile we have HAM, where you auto attack for most boons 😞 How did we end up here.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Antina.5973
just some typos, cause apparently i cannot type

[Xaylin.1860]

15 hours ago, Antina.5973 said:

But versatility is great and more builds should have this. HAM sure is versatile, but at the same time so AFK, it is sad we have it as comparison. People complain about QFB being too easy, but I personally had some new players who were forgetting to press the 3 buttons on both QFB and HFB, especially when learning new role in raids. Meanwhile we have HAM, where you auto attack for most boons 😞 How did we end up here.

Being versatile is great. But it still remains an issue if other classes aren't. As you said, this doesn't mean that FB needs to be nerfed per se. But something has to be done to level the field a bit. 

Still, as I mentioned earlier: This thread is about why nerfing core for bringing e-specs in line is bad. The current benchmarks might be promising. But it was still the wrong approach for the class overall. So how do you guys fixate on something that hasn't even been argued here? I don't get it. This is not a "nerf qFB more" thread. It is a "qFB should have been nerfed differently so Guard and FB has more options" thread.

And again: HAM is not a valid argument. It's clearly out of line.

[soul.9651]

Nah no thanks, if they touches cfb with any kind of buffs it would probably turn out to have top benchmark dps again(with one of the best burst in the game while beeing a kittening condi) while on the same spec u can already be a god tier supp. 

I get that u say: nerf this instead and buff that but knowing that its anet favorite class it would be just buffs while forgetting the nerfing part...

Edited July 8, 2022 by soul.9651

[draxynnic.3719]

I would be concerned that if you nerf the base damage output of tome 1 too much, it could get to the point where it's not worth taking over autoattacking. 

[cat.8975]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I would be concerned that if you nerf the base damage output of tome 1 too much, it could get to the point where it's not worth taking over autoattacking. 

While I haven't updated my sheet in a while, the standard "tome rotation" of 25412 did more than twice the dps of auto-attacking. Even with my admittedly extreme proposition to halve the burns, tome would *still* be worth using.

[ThunderX.6591]

5 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Nah no thanks, if they touches cfb with any kind of buffs it would probably turn out to have top benchmark dps again(with one of the best burst in the game while beeing a kittening condi) while on the same spec u can already be a god tier supp. 

I get that u say: nerf this instead and buff that but knowing that its anet favorite class it would be just buffs while forgetting the nerfing part...

For basic, the top healer is the Tempest, you cannot beat it with FB, but FB can help the party and offer quickness and might for extra bonus, so, you use the healer quickness fb, cause quick dps FB isn't the top dps in the rankers, and people prefer the top dps instead of the top healer in their party (cause you normally die for boss oneshot or you fail mechanics).

This is reality, nothing about nerfs or buff set FB as the party choice, simple top dps mind and laziness in experimenting new class party combination give this end result.

[Xaylin.1860]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I would be concerned that if you nerf the base damage output of tome 1 too much, it could get to the point where it's not worth taking over autoattacking. 

Depending on how other traits were changed, there is also the option to add extra damage to F1 via Stoic Demeanor that's exclusively active when the Tome is active (think Shroud traits). This way ANet could bump up the damage exclusively for damage builds. The elephant in the room is Quickfire, though.

[Antina.5973]

Btw, there already was this cool build done by Support Hero that didn't use tome at all, but aforementioned Stoic Demeanor with Sanctuary.

I wonder, what if Ashes got reworked into selfish dps skill, for the sake of this argument let's assume it's just gone, and we could re-enter F1 tome with 1 second CD by picking up a trait, maybe reworked Quickfire (matches the trait name in my head perfectly).

[Xaylin.1860]

What's the goal of your idea? To have Stoic Demeanor as none-tome damage trait and the new Quickfire as tome specific damage trait?

This could theoretically work and make sense. However, this would move FB into a damage focussed role. I feel like it also should still cater support roles.

My personal feelings aside, there are two things that I can see going against this idea. First, ANet at least partly removed F1 recharge not too long ago. They might not want to reintroduce it again. Second, Lore Master comes with CD reduction for Tomes. A new Quickfire that reduced F1 and added another damage benefit is intruding on both other GM traits features at the same time.

 

I've toyed around with Hammer, Sanctuary, Stoic Demeanor and Glacial Heart. It's kinda fun and can be effective in certain scenarios. But it is veeeery gimmicky and still weaker than just relying on fast attacks to trigger F1 passive with Permeating Wrath and Radiance to recharge your Tome.

 

[Massimoni.9453]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:12 AM, soul.9651 said:

it would be just buffs while forgetting the nerfing part...

That's why the recent patches have been nerfs... smh.

 

On 7/8/2022 at 11:12 AM, soul.9651 said:

it would probably turn out to have top benchmark dps again

When did it have that??? I don't recall a time window in which cFB had top benchmark, so please enlighten me on this. For the longest time as I remember it was pChrono with something around 42k and cRene with 43k dominating the charts, while cFB had roughly 37k. It was just recently that it was barely short of 40k which was in line with quite a few other builds you aren't complaining about atm (and the utility D so many people are riding when wanting fb nerfed into the ground is already the reason it got many disadvantages compared to other condi classes which should actually make it top DPS if it wasn't for in-built tomes, but this part is vehemently ignored). After this great recent patch it's below power specs... great and its people like you who want to prevent them from fixing it like they did with a handful of specs already. How about you focus on how to pull everything up again like a reasonable person would instead of wanting your stuff buffed and firebrand to stay on this low level.

 

Just by having a quick look at your profile and seeing how you seem to bring firebrand into everything really says enough. Can't have other people enjoy it eh?

Edited July 10, 2022 by Massimoni.9453

[Carnifex.3275]

6 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

That's why the recent patches have been nerfs... smh.

 

When did it have that??? I don't recall a time window in which cFB had top benchmark, so please enlighten me on this. For the longest time as I remember it was pChrono with something around 42k and cRene with 43k dominating the charts, while cFB had roughly 37k. It was just recently that it was barely short of 40k which was in line with quite a few other builds you aren't complaining about atm (and the utility D so many people are riding when wanting fb nerfed into the ground is already the reason it got many disadvantages compared to other condi classes which should actually make it top DPS if it wasn't for in-built tomes, but this part is vehemently ignored). After this great recent patch it's below power specs... great and its people like you who want to prevent them from fixing it like they did with a handful of specs already. How about you focus on how to pull everything up again like a reasonable person would instead of wanting your stuff buffed and firebrand to stay on this low level.

 

Just by having a quick look at your profile and seeing how you seem to bring firebrand into everything really says enough. Can't have other people enjoy it eh?

This patch was a very good indicator how alot of people don't know anything about cFB / cWB. When they saw patch notes every1 was saying "oh so guardian is still the favorite of anets and mechanist is joining the ranks". Meanwhile i looked at the patch notes and saw no buffs whatsoever, i looked at Amp Wrath nerf and quickly realised it'll be a downfall of cWB/cFB. And even without Amp Wrath it would still be a mediocre dps (having in mind sun spirit especially). But people still kept saying that guardian wasnt nerfed. Now people slowly realize that cFB/cWB is quite dead. Was a veeeery good indicator of how people judge and talk about guard while really not knowing anything about it. 🤦‍♂️ Just a bandwagon and inertia of hate. A case of "oh this guy said this so it must be true, let's join the hate parade." 

Open your eyes people and judge based on info not just personal bias.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Dave.6819

[Massimoni.9453]

7 hours ago, Dave.6819 said:

This patch was a very good indicator how alot of people don't know anything about cFB / cWB. When they saw patch notes every1 was saying "oh so guardian is still the favorite of anets and mechanist is joining the ranks". Meanwhile i looked at the patch notes and saw no buffs whatsoever, i looked at Amp Wrath nerf and quickly realised it'll be a downfall of cWB/cFB. And even without Amp Wrath it would still be a mediocre dps (having in mind sun spirit especially). But people still kept saying that guardian wasnt nerfed. Now people slowly realize that cFB/cWB is quite dead. Was a veeeery good indicator of how people judge and talk about guard while really not knowing anything about it. 🤦‍♂️ Just a bandwagon and inertia of hate. A case of "oh this guy said this so it must be true, let's join the hate parade." 

Open your eyes people and judge based on info not just personal bias.

 

Hard agree on everything you said 👍

[Antina.5973]

11 hours ago, Dave.6819 said:

Just a bandwagon and inertia of hate.

Yup, that's just sad truth. I see many people picture guard in this twisted way. Ele dead, guard op, spreading misinformation, not even playing the class but because someone wrote something on the internet that aligns with their believes, they reprint and spread it.

And on top of that, they don't talk about DH/guardian in general now not having a good power spec anymore.

Also no one talks about alac willbender being miserable to play on most encounters, especially the ones where boss has invuln. And condi alac also got hit by the Amplified Wrath nerf, so it's even worse on damage now. Thanks, guess I'll play power alac willbender variant, oh wait. It's worse after this patch too. 🤡

Edited July 11, 2022 by Antina.5973

[Carnifex.3275]

I think snowcrows just made that alacwilly build as a meme tbh. So it looks like guardian can do more stuff. But it's really a terrible spec for alac, i dunno who would use that even. Moving around like a mad man with f2 constantly? 🤣 Just bad design for alac spec.

But yeah... cwilly/cfb got dropped to a very mediocre level, so idk for what it's good for. I suppose it'll be just OW specs. DH/pWB was quite dead even before this patch (except PvP/WvW). For now i'd say dont bother with any guard dps spec in endgame content (raids). Qfb/Hfb are 2 specs that are still ok. But hey maybe atleast now ppl wont complain that we're OP! 😄 Though for now... i still see ppl hate on guards, inertia is strong on this one 😄 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Dave.6819