Dear ANet: Please Don't Make the Same Mistake

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Dear @Josh Davis.7865, @Cal Cohen.2358, et al.,

 

I am very pleased to see that you plan to revisit Warrior's Banners for the upcoming game update in August.  

 

However, I earnestly implore you not to repeat the mistakes of the past.  You have said time and again that you are interested in player feedback, but your actions heretofore have not demonstrated it.  Now is the time. 

 

As you consider how to rework and improve banners, please take the time to engage the Warrior community.  The collective thousands of hours of game time by your players offers a wealth of insight, if you would but take the time to listen.  I regularly am surprised and amazed by some of the  creativity and critical thinking displayed in some of the posts on these forums, and I think you will be as well.  Not all ideas are good ones, of course, but I suspect you will find many ideas worth implementing, or at the very least you may find inspiration for some ideas of your own.  

 

We, like you, love this  game and greatly  desire its success.  Let us be partners in making Warrior, and GW2 as a whole, better.

 

Sincerely,

The Warrior Community

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

As an addendum, I would encourage ANet devs to actively engage the community when they are planning to do reworks.  Imagine how differently things might have unfolded if, back in February or March, ANet devs posted in the forums:

 

"Warriors, we're planning to rework banners to provide boon support.  What are your thoughts?"

 

"Rangers, we're going to rework Spirits.  What do you want to see?"

 

Collaboration between devs and the player base is the lifeblood of a successful, thriving game.   Keeping everyone in the dark while sweeping balance changes are made and then blindsiding the community with them is a recipe for disaster, as the recent patch has shown.  Engage the players, earn their trust, and harness their creativity.

[kiri.1467]

Yeah, but the leaks confirmed they don't listen to feedback. 😞

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

12 minutes ago, kiri.1467 said:

Yeah, but the leaks confirmed they don't listen to feedback. 😞

... Yet!

#hopiumcopium

[Mesket.5728]

to be honest, banners is the least of my concerns... we shouldn't be even discussing banners having no support spec. Its everything else about warrior that makes it obsolete in the current scenario and have us talking about standing banners.

 

4 skills are not going to fix a class.. we are in such a pathetic state that we actually depend on this 4 vanilla skills. Hope they realize how low the standards are.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Mesket.5728

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

22 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

to be honest, banners is the least of my concerns... we shouldn't be even discussing banners having no support spec. Its everything else about warrior that makes it obsolete in the current scenario and have us talking about standing banners.

 

4 skills are not going to fix a class.. we are in such a pathetic state that we actually depend on this 4 vanilla skills. Hope they realize how low the standards are.

Totally agree. I wouldn't have picked banners to rework, but ANet did, and here we are. One can hope that this is just the beginning and more reworks are on the way... Even though I think most of us aren't holding our breath at this point. 

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Totally agree. I wouldn't have picked banners to rework, but ANet did, and here we are. One can hope that this is just the beginning and more reworks are on the way... Even though I think most of us aren't holding our breath at this point. 

That's the most reasonable view we can have. 

But the hope is also wh and martial cadence. Enabling these to give team quickness gives lots of options ... it's just that they all suck right now

Edited July 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Cat Bonum.8310]

10 hours ago, Mesket.5728 said:

to be honest, banners is the least of my concerns... we shouldn't be even discussing banners having no support spec. Its everything else about warrior that makes it obsolete in the current scenario and have us talking about standing banners.

 

4 skills are not going to fix a class.. we are in such a pathetic state that we actually depend on this 4 vanilla skills. Hope they realize how low the standards are.

please fix warrior in wvw/pvp, is been broken in 2020 *sigh 😓 it wasnt in a great place before that, but at least it wasn't f*d like it is now.

 

and yeah, why're we even talking about banners when banners was fine before they broke it.

 

what people were complaining about was being locked into banners because there were no other builds where warrior excels besides banners, and there were no actual demands for warriors outside of banners.

 

they essentially created that problem all on their own, and are going to "fix" it. also if their "fix" consists of only changing the duration of banners and quickness they could've easily pushed that out on balance patch release. or the followup release (where warrior was left unaddressed)

 

at the moment its really hard to be positive, all signs point out to more of the same. 😓

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Cat Bonum.8310]

10 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

#hopiumcopium

but aye, lets be positive. 🎉🥩🍻✨

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's the most reasonable view we can have. 

But the hope is also wh and martial cadence. Enabling these to give team quickness gives lots of options ... it's just that they all suck right now

I would contend that Cadence is the one quickness skill/trait that they didn't truly screw up. It would be better if it scaled based on adrenaline like other on burst traits, and also not have a CD like other on burst traits, but as is on its own its a 60% uptime with 100% BD.

Charge needs a 4s quickness duration not 2s. If that change were made things would be in a sweet spot and they can remove quickness from banners and make them into a better form of support.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I would contend that Cadence is the one quickness skill/trait that they didn't truly screw up. It would be better if it scaled based on adrenaline like other on burst traits, and also not have a CD like other on burst traits, but as is on its own its a 60% uptime with 100% BD.

Charge needs a 4s quickness duration not 2s. If that change were made things would be in a sweet spot and they can remove quickness from banners and make them into a better form of support.

Has anyone spent much time with Martial Cadence who can speak to this? 60% up time sounds decent, but in reality, you'd only get that if you perfectly timed your bursts exactly every 10s when soldiers focus renews. Otherwise, your actual uptime will be less. Sounds like a lot of work and headache to me... Esp when you can get perma quickness on harbinger with viper gear just by being in shroud, lol. 

[Fueki.4753]

16 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I am very pleased to see that you plan to revisit Warrior's Banners for the upcoming game update in August. 

Where did they say/write that? Was it on some anti-social media again?

16 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Sincerely,

The Warrior Community

Please speak only for yourself. You do not represent the community.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

31 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Has anyone spent much time with Martial Cadence who can speak to this? 60% up time sounds decent, but in reality, you'd only get that if you perfectly timed your bursts exactly every 10s when soldiers focus renews. Otherwise, your actual uptime will be less. Sounds like a lot of work and headache to me... Esp when you can get perma quickness on harbinger with viper gear just by being in shroud, lol. 

It would be you not spamming F1 immediately on CD. About 1s after every two F1s on Berserker. On Core if you Burst then weapon swap (with Fast Hands mind you) when you swap again your F1 will be perfectly timed with the CD on Cadence.

Still, the trait should be 1s of quickness per adrenaline tier used with no CD and I'll stand by that statement.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Where did they say/write that? Was it on some anti-social media again?

Profession Balance: Next Steps and Preview of June 30 Balance Update  - Page 10 - Professions - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Two important tidbits:
 

"July 19

After today, our next opportunity to make changes will be the July 19 release. The build for this release is already “locked down” and moving through the pipeline, so we don’t have much time to make changes here. Our priority here will be to address Furious Burst, the warrior’s +5% critical hit chance trait that’s currently residing in the Arms specialization. We may make additional changes in this release as we continue to monitor game metrics and your feedback, but from a development ‘best practices’ standpoint, we’ll be focusing our attention on the following release.

August 2

As we mentioned earlier this week, we’ve added a follow-up balance update to our schedule on August 2. For that release, we'll be looking at addressing warrior banners and chronomancer’s relatively low damage output through chronomancer-specific traits and increasing the damage on core weapons (like the treatment ranger is getting today). Once we’ve released today’s hotfix we’ll move onto planning the details of this update."

So it can be heavily inferred that Furious Bursts (or the extra 5% crit chance anyway) will be moving traitlines on July 19th out of Arms and into another, probably Discipline or Strength. Wouldn't it be something if it replaces Fast Hands and they make the weapon swap CD reduction baseline? Replace one mandatory trait for another lol.

They are also 'addressing' warrior banners on August 2nd. This means they're admitting that what was released was no bueno guano. What they do though is anyone's guess. The doomium posts are thinking they will just increase the quickness on banner summon by a small amount and call it a day. The optimist (like me) are hoping for an actual fleshed out rework.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Profession Balance: Next Steps and Preview of June 30 Balance Update  - Page 10 - Professions - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Two important tidbits:
 

"July 19

After today, our next opportunity to make changes will be the July 19 release. The build for this release is already “locked down” and moving through the pipeline, so we don’t have much time to make changes here. Our priority here will be to address Furious Burst, the warrior’s +5% critical hit chance trait that’s currently residing in the Arms specialization. We may make additional changes in this release as we continue to monitor game metrics and your feedback, but from a development ‘best practices’ standpoint, we’ll be focusing our attention on the following release.

August 2

As we mentioned earlier this week, we’ve added a follow-up balance update to our schedule on August 2. For that release, we'll be looking at addressing warrior banners and chronomancer’s relatively low damage output through chronomancer-specific traits and increasing the damage on core weapons (like the treatment ranger is getting today). Once we’ve released today’s hotfix we’ll move onto planning the details of this update."

So it can be heavily inferred that Furious Bursts (or the extra 5% crit chance anyway) will be moving traitlines on July 19th out of Arms and into another, probably Discipline or Strength. Wouldn't it be something if it replaces Fast Hands and they make the weapon swap CD reduction baseline? Replace one mandatory trait for another lol.

They are also 'addressing' warrior banners on August 2nd. This means they're admitting that what was released was no bueno guano. What they do though is anyone's guess. The doomium posts are thinking they will just increase the quickness on banner summon by a small amount and call it a day. The optimist (like me) are hoping for an actual fleshed out rework.

I think these things deserve their own topics in the Announcements category or Game Updates category though, so they don't get drowned out by other posts in long topics.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think these things deserve their own topics in the Announcements category or Game Updates category though, so they don't get drowned out by other posts in long topics.

It's pinned so that doesn't happen. Still under the professions tab however so it has naturally lower visibility.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

 

Please speak only for yourself. You do not represent the community.

The only message of the OP: "ANet, please listen to players' feedback."

 

I am confident that the vast majority of posters in these forums would like it if ANet would consider their suggestions.

 

If you actually do NOT want ANet to pay attention to your feedback, my apologies. Please disregard this thread. 

[Fueki.4753]

43 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

The only message of the OP: "ANet, please listen to players' feedback."

I am confident that the vast majority of posters in these forums would like it if ANet would consider their suggestions.

If you actually do NOT want ANet to pay attention to your feedback, my apologies. Please disregard this thread. 

The point is, the OP has tried to paint his personal points as the de facto opinion of the Warrior community in its entirety, which is not the truth.  Thus I've told them not to claim to represent any other person.

Of course I'd want Arenanet to listen to their players, but the reality is that we know they won't do that.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Obtena.7952]

I'm behind the OP here. At least the OP recognizes the reality of where we are instead of imagining some place he wants to be we will never get to. 

I'm behind the suggestion to stack quickness with adrenaline bar on Martial Cadence. It's inline with other burst traits. I can't see why it WOULDN'T work like that given the design rules used for other traits that proc on burst. 

Now ... what is NOT clear. I think we have all reasonably assumed that a class in it's role would deliver 100% uptime. That might be wrong but if it's not wrong ... then it's beyond my comprehension how Anet couldn't perform the SIMPLE MATH necessary to determine how warrior would deliver that in these changes (and not just warrior either ... other classes ALSO can't deliver the 100% uptime in their roles)

Edited July 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

The point is, the OP has tried to paint his personal points as the de facto opinion of the Warrior community in its entirety, which is not the truth.  Thus I've told them not to claim to represent any other person.

Of course I'd want Arenanet to listen to their players, but the reality is that we know they won't do that.

The guy you quoted is the OP.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm behind the OP here. At least the OP recognizes the reality of where we are instead of imagining some place he wants to be we will never get to. 

I'm behind the suggestion to stack quickness with adrenaline bar on Martial Cadence. It's inline with other burst traits. I can't see why it WOULDN'T work like that given the design rules used for other traits that proc on burst. 

Now ... what is NOT clear. I think we have all reasonably assumed that a class in it's role would deliver 100% uptime. That might be wrong but if it's not wrong ... then it's beyond my comprehension how Anet couldn't perform the SIMPLE MATH necessary to determine how warrior would deliver that in these changes (and not just warrior either ... other classes ALSO can't deliver the 100% uptime in their roles)

Martial Cadence and Soldier's Comfort are not in line with other burst traits and bringing them in line with other burst traits, without CD would help to create a true core support spec.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910
typo

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Martial Cadence and Soldier's Comfort are not in line with other burst traits and bringing them in line with other burst traits, without CD would help to create a true core support spec.

Maybe they fear to make the trait not have a cd, since this might make it too easy for some builds to provide 100% boon uptime.

Thinking specifically of decapitate berserker here. The tier 1 quickness duration of martial cadence would need to be really low to prevent this interaction to provide 100% uptime without investment in boon duration. Either that or they have to nerf the CD refund for decapitate.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Maybe they fear to make the trait not have a cd, since this might make it too easy for some builds to provide 100% boon uptime.

Thinking specifically of decapitate berserker here. The tier 1 quickness duration of martial cadence would need to be really low to prevent this interaction to provide 100% uptime without investment in boon duration. Either that or they have to nerf the CD refund for decapitate.

They weren't that afraid when it came to Harbinger now were they? And that just requires entering Shroud for high uptime and tossing two elixirs out of shroud for full uptime.

It seems you haven't followed my statements on a tiered Martial Cadence. Please see: 

In there I suggest Tier 1 should give 1s of quickness. A Berserker with 100% BD would get 2s of quickness out per Decapitate and would still need to generate adrenaline for those F1s to get the out every 2s, which is about the rate of putting out Decapitates after taking in cast times and after casts. A Berserker taking 100% BD isn't going to bench high numbers. Though it would be a moderate level of DPS.

Making on burst traits key off of the adrenaline spent, like Berserker's Power, Cleansing Ire, and Adrenal Health, has an effect of automatically balancing them for the especs given how the especs have changed the use of adrenaline.