The place of necro in the metha

[dreamin.5102]

hello all 

 

 Please ❤️ 

Take the time to read all the points before reacting only on the fact that the benchmarks have changed recently and will probably change again, 

The points raised concern problems that were present on the necro WELL BEFORE the recent patch, some of which have been present for more than 5 years 

If you read three lines and interpret the post as a nervous breakdown to just react to the benchmark it is not constructive .... ❤️❤️ ❤️

I'm a veteran of gw2 if you can call it that, I've touched everything and I'm specialised in fractals and raids, so I'm only going to speak about the pve content
If the necro is better accepted than before (more instant kick as soon as the name necro is noted by the group) it is still not less than passables

----The reaper spec,
 it has always been far below the rest in dps and its survivability doesn't justify it, as other classes have as much survivability for better benchmarks, it doesn't bring any boon so except when you are a fan of the spec it will only be played for pvp/mcm and open worlds for the rest it is not good compared to others.

-----The hardbringer,
It's a good thing to want to bring the quick or alac to other specs, but why deprive yourself of a quick fb that gives the same thing with a slightly lower dps (on long fights) but that brings stab/aegis/reflect/heal direct/cafee? ***As long as stab and aegis are not modified, there will be an imbalance of strength compared to guard and all the other specs.***

-----The scourge,
 allows you to do some extra roles like solo kite Q1 or pylon

but it's still one of the simpler ones that can spam a bit of shiel or take the blood magic trait when needed, 

it's a bit of a shame, as for the hsg/flail doctor specs, they are only used to carry dodges that wipe in a loop on some poorly mastered bosses, so it's inexistent in a more hl sphere due to the 0 benefits it brings (exepct might), it's only a reanimator with shield overall .... And let me tell you about the war core that heals 37 hp/second on all bosses, because they are mostly alone, without ads around...
Meanwhile, the guardian gets more and more with now a subjugger able to generate alac with a good deep...

The necro is more playable than before thanks to the up of the dps condi dps certainly, but if one takes discretize for ex, post the nerf of the potions you look at all the record there will be no necro for 99 % of the time, it is Well that there is a problem the class is too egotistical...

 

You can solot the cm's with the necro yes, I've already done it out of spite it's quite simple actually just a bit longer (10 - 20 min/boss), but I don't do cm fractals to solot them! But for community play, hence the name MMO .... the necro doesn't really stand out and that's a shame.
 

But we'll continue to force ourselves to guard broken, because most pugs only want to guard for boon  The pleasure of games will remain optional or ocassional on grp hight kp who don't give a kitten about the quick, there is always the solution of the mecha engineer otherwise being given that he becomes an erzatz of the guard heal 
 

Also a comrade of my guilds would like to add the following points after I express myself on the forum he takes the opportunity to say that : 
 

- When you play a warrior or a guard with a tourbilol you destroy all the mobs, the damage of the basic weapon in necro is very basic and you have the constraint of the LF.

 

-When you play power or condi on the 3 spe you always use the same utility, which makes the gameplay and rota redundant.

 

-The reaper's screams, the scourge's sand snake, the bookmark's assets which are totally incompetent compared to the other classes ex. the meca.

 

-A lot of the skills in the necro are just not up to par and don't serve much purpose 

-In necro we have a bookmark that increases power and in active we apply conditions, a bookmark that gives LF passively but uses our pv to rez, a bookmark to run faster that sucks the life out of our enemies nothing is consistent in the active of these bookmarks in a build.

 

-Even the LF mechanic is a problem in the HL content against 1 boss, you get Lf back when you kill an enemy but against a boss, you never get any back.

 

-Even in Pvp, you have to kill 2 times or more if you get up each enemy to get LF.

 

-I'd have to revise the LF generation on all necro to have LF on all skills and every time you CC or base fear, and every time you dowtime an enemy you get half the LF back in pvp and if you kill him another one. (of course the amount of Lf would be much less than now)-But it would allow to have a more simple and logical control of our resource.
I'd like to see a rework 2.0 of the death magic that is currently only used for AFK farm bot and that prevents it from being used in raid because it gives robustness, it would have to be replaced by either armor or a percentage reduction in damage.

 

-A rework of the corruption skills would be nice too, 

Because you can be the best necro in the game, when you play with 4 guardians who are just doing their rotation dps 
 they will unintentionally clean your bleed stack and torment permanently which you need to do your dps, and this despite you being careful but a 0.1 second frame to transfer the condition to the dagger or other before the 489489489489 cleancondi of the other classes remove it is still a bit short 



 

Edited July 7, 2022 by dreamin.5102
grammar fault

[SeTect.5918]

12 minutes ago, dreamin.5102 said:

hello all 
For start,
Recent Bench compare, 
28 k nec -  39 k power Bladeswors
& this for same ez  rotation for both class 
 

???? Where are that numbers coming from? 

Quickness harbinger does 31k dps (after june 28 update) so where is the 28k coming from? 

https://youtu.be/X_Ak6XvLQRk

[dreamin.5102]

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks
 

29 k ** it doesn't change anything that has been said, don't block on the benchmarks 
It even encourages my point that we are talking about a quickjob that does more dps than a pure dps job what 
 

Edited July 6, 2022 by dreamin.5102

[SeTect.5918]

5 minutes ago, dreamin.5102 said:

https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks
 

29 k ** it doesn't change anything that has been said, don't block on the benchmarks 
 

Well there are like only 6 e specs yet. You should wait before making any Statements based on benchmarks. 

And u said that necro did 28k dps. It was reaper, not necro. 

Reaper always has been in a bad state dps wise.

But scourge has been quite good lately, or even op. In fact when harbinger was released with 41k dps, people saw no reason to use it bc scourge has faaaaaaar better sustain while just having like 3k less dps. And we dont know the benchmark for scourge yet. 

Harbinger, well yes, on one side, as u said, u can say that it has less utility than qfb, but every quickness build has. Its not the problem with harbinger, its a problem with qfb that fb is so horrible op. 

Overall pve wise necro is in an Overall good state. 

Compared to guardian (or Firebrand specifically) no class is in a good state ofc. 

[dreamin.5102]

I'm not basing this on benchmarks alone, and other benchmarks won't change anything 

Please read more of the first 5 lines where I talk about benchmarks as I have raised many more points than that, 

You're telling me it's not a necro problem it's just the guard is op,

Well, suppose the guard disappeared overnight, 

What would we have? Heal mech and quickalyst as they will always bring a better amount of boon than necro in general 

See further than the dps  of course if the dps of the scourge / bringer is high it's good  
except that in terms of boon/sustain compared to the 3/4 of other classes the necro is still under rated trash might, just a bit of fury/quickness/so much better optimized on most other classes the scrg will still be a dps with a bit of sustain and eventually a rezer or full hsg/doctor  

 

 

[SeTect.5918]

51 minutes ago, dreamin.5102 said:

I'm not basing this on benchmarks alone, and other benchmarks won't change anything 

Please read more of the first 5 lines where I talk about benchmarks as I have raised many more points than that, 

You're telling me it's not a necro problem it's just the guard is op,

Well, suppose the guard disappeared overnight, 

What would we have? Heal mech and quickalyst as they will always bring a better amount of boon than necro in general 

See further than the dps  of course if the dps of the scourge / bringer is high it's good  
except that in terms of boon/sustain compared to the 3/4 of other classes the necro is still under rated trash might, just a bit of fury/quickness/so much better optimized on most other classes the scrg will still be a dps with a bit of sustain and eventually a rezer or full hsg/doctor  

 

 

I know that its not only benchmarks. 

And i m not saying that its not a necro problem and that its just a guard problem. I never said necro and guard, i said harbinger and firebrand. 

Wdym sustain? Necro has one of the best sustain in the game. 

I also know that Mechanist is op. I said that firebrand is op compared to harbinger. Not that the only balance problem is guard. 

And making the Statement that harder rotation should deal most dps also makes no sense. That would mean that weaver or condi holo should deal like 80k dps compared to others. 

Or what did u want to say with the thing that bladesworn deals far more dmg while having same rota? 

Yes, harbinger could have more utility, yes reaper should have more dps. I fully agree with that. 

But still overall necro is in a good state. U made ur post like 90% of all e specs would be better which is not the case. 

Necro is even one of the best classes overall. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Kaladel.1670]

15 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Necro is even one of the best classes overall. 

Necro was never one of the best classes in PvE. Even in the best days of the Scourge, it was only niche. Really amazing at that niche role, but that was it. And that was just Scourge. Not the years of Necro and Reaper before it. The time when "No necro" and "No reaper" were common in LFG descriptions (and those two aren't really better nowaday). Something no other profession has ever known. So no, Necro's not one of the best classes overall.

[dreamin.5102]

best support in the game ? i already solo druid condi full clear from 1 to 7 with my old rooster,  so when could a scrg do the same while giving boons ? 

The necro would have a Healing special that gives perma quick / fury / might / speed / stab / aegis / resolution / resistance / huge amount of cc reflect + insane heal ? and I would have missed it kitten ! 

Well, I raised at least 10 discussion points about necro in general and you reacted & block  only on the benchmark of the first lines....... I have the feeling that 

I don't think you understood the essence of what I think, but I'll have to read it again, 
 

The HSG yes, is a real machine to carry with its gates and its ground floor of sick, 
Except that the people who need an HSG are players who don't have the level to do that, so as not to offend anyone, 

If you base yourselves on Ramdon Pugs who makes his clear and takes scrg in the squad to carry yes indeed it is very strong you are right, 

I'm talking about greeding, for example 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlCd9Guz46o&ab_channel=Inky

On this type of runs, you will not see necro dps, nor necro heal, support, boon, why ?. it's kitten compared to the rest that's all 

 

I have never seen in an lfg on Monday morning on squads with 1000 li + need hsg / scrg dps blood magic ever, or in fractal cm the same thing,

On the other hand, on the classic low lvl cleart of the t4s you see necro yes, the same on more chill raids, I am talking about the very opti where we greed everything and the necro has no place in this sphere so far ,

after seeing that anet has destroyed the fractals with his last partch and that he is starting to give boons no matter how to anyone all this will surely change in a few months

[Nephalem.8921]

56 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

Necro was never one of the best classes in PvE. Even in the best days of the Scourge, it was only niche. Really amazing at that niche role, but that was it. And that was just Scourge. Not the years of Necro and Reaper before it. The time when "No necro" and "No reaper" were common in LFG descriptions (and those two aren't really better nowaday). Something no other profession has ever known. So no, Necro's not one of the best classes overall.

Necro was multiple times the best class in the game. Epi bounce was by far the best dps strat in the game and also by far the most braindead degenerate meta we ever had. 

Scourge and harbinger are fine currently. scourge is still a bit on the op side for what it provides. only reaper is trash. always has been.

[Kaladel.1670]

1 minute ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Necro was multiple times the best class in the game. Epi bounce was by far the best dps strat in the game and also by far the most braindead degenerate meta we ever had. 

Scourge and harbinger are fine currently. scourge is still a bit on the op side for what it provides. only reaper is trash. always has been.

Necro is, by design, a profession made for competitive gameplay.  As we can see with the huge quantity of boon corruption it has and the focus on condition instead of boons. It's not made for PvE and has never really had a place with the whole 'boon meta' (I don't really feel like Harbinger is enough without some much needed rework of the core weapons/traits, even if it's something, at least).

It's great at what it does (as any zerger in WvW can tell, Necro has always been great in that game mode), but many people overestimate Scourge. Scourge doesn't provide much outside of rez', nowadays. Before the barrier nerf and the stealth nerf that removed Might on barriers, etc. it was (perhaps a bit too) great for it's capacity to support and DPS. Now, it's a choice, but the support aspect isn't supporty enough and the DPS aspect, while good, isn't on par with its competitors. Scourge value in instancied PvE is carrying. And it's best in the hand of an experienced player, who already knows the mechanics. If you are a newbie player, Scourge won't help as much.

Epidemic is the skill that was nerfed again and again and again... since launch and still managed to pull necro forward, I'll admit that. Even in its current state, it still isn't a bad skill. But the profession has always relied too much on things like that. one skill, one e-spec; ... The core of necro was flawed from the start, a thing the devs never properly adressed.

[KrHome.1920]

That 29.5k build:

Full zerk, scholar rune and decimate defenses instead of mixed gear, thief rune and soul eater should bring that build above 30k - which seems is what ANet aimed for with this 15% crit damage number in shroud. Reaper is exactly where is was 3 years ago - at 30k dps.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

I believe that it would be better to let the dust settle before complaining.

Also, it's pretty common for "old" e-specs to be overshadowed by the new stuff within the 1st year of an x-pack. Reaper's strike damage dps not being competitive against bladesworn's isn't really surprising.

7 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Reaper is exactly where is was 3 years ago - at 30k dps.

Not exactly, it's a bit squishier.

[felincyriac.5981]

imagine playing a power melee build with <30k dps in 2022 lmao

[Rhingeim.3974]

My personal issue with necromancer is related to the fact, that none of it's elite specs provide more use for minions. Out of all minion/pet classes, necromancer have the weakest ones without options to either control them, nor build up their power or synergy with character. 

Damage wise, they lose against utilities. 

Conditions transfer from them is also can be done smother by skills. 

The only good thing from them is overall sustain through BM/DM, but despite my love to big sustain, it's bit to much, and damage sacrifice is disastrous for this. Yes, it's works for OW.... If you're ok for each battle being fight for attrition. 

Yep, some minions presented in some builds because of extra-body for defense or utility skills. But tradeoff for their damage boost is extremely costly, why doesn't bring much profit. 

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Rhingeim.3974 said:

My personal issue with necromancer is related to the fact, that none of it's elite specs provide more use for minions. Out of all minion/pet classes, necromancer have the weakest ones without options to either control them, nor build up their power or synergy with character. 

Damage wise, they lose against utilities. 

Conditions transfer from them is also can be done smother by skills. 

The only good thing from them is overall sustain through BM/DM, but despite my love to big sustain, it's bit to much, and damage sacrifice is disastrous for this. Yes, it's works for OW.... If you're ok for each battle being fight for attrition. 

Yep, some minions presented in some builds because of extra-body for defense or utility skills. But tradeoff for their damage boost is extremely costly, why doesn't bring much profit. 

I fondamentally disagree with what you'd want minions to be.

There is already way to much focus on their passive side and not enough on their active side.

[XECOR.2814]

I wrote a massive paragraph then deleted it cause I realized nothing will change cause Anet is clueless and incompetent and player base doesn't know what they need or what's good. There is no hope.
 

[Obtena.7952]

People have to stop focusing on DPS if you want to talk about class being meta. It's so misguided to believe that's why classes are desirable in this game. 

Now we have class roles, the expectation is that Anet provides at least one spec that is desirable in that role. Necro isn't quite there yet IMO. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

Damage doesnt matter, utility is what you want. I dont see all those 39k bladesworns running around? Would be cool if people would stop using a benchmark number and actually compare it to what you see in the game. 

Quickness harbringer is very good (2nd best quickness provider), sadly its outshined by firebrand. Does anyone care that it does like 1-2k less? No, because its just that good with utility.

Scourge is imo one of the best condi builds in the game. Its damage is great, it has utility, it can be ranged and has epidemic, which still is one of the best (or well THE BEST) utilities in the game even in its current state. You can calculate the damage it can do to 5 targets in 900 range with a 20 seconds cooldown and name me one other skill that comes even close. Heal scourge lacks boons. Give it something, as long as it isnt alac or quickness. That would be awful otherwise.

Reaper is the only spec that needs some more love.

Besides that, all your core traitlines are quite good (blood lacks boons like already mentioned).

Edited July 9, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Heal scourge lacks boons. Give it something, as long as it isnt alac or quickness. That would be awful otherwise.

I do think it would be a mistake to do so. PoF is still to fresh in players minds and the scourge trauma still linger. 

If anything could be done, I'd like for Reaper to provide quickness through the use of some Reaper skills (maybe the shout trait) and harbinger to completely lose the group quickness for alacrity (Alacrity instead of quickness on harbinger would reduce the feeling of the spec having to high of a hit rate in competitive mode, which might reduce the complains level a tiny bit).

[Kaladel.1670]

45 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I do think it would be a mistake to do so. PoF is still to fresh in players minds and the scourge trauma still linger. 

If anything could be done, I'd like for Reaper to provide quickness through the use of some Reaper skills (maybe the shout trait) and harbinger to completely lose the group quickness for alacrity (Alacrity instead of quickness on harbinger would reduce the feeling of the spec having to high of a hit rate in competitive mode, which might reduce the complains level a tiny bit).

What complains? All I see nowadays is Firebrand and Mechanist. Even Scourge isn't even brought out anymore. And it wasn't like Scourge was even remotely close to FB even at its best... Let the crybabies cry, we desserve a good profession in all game modes (and no "good" doesn't mean "Firebrand level in PvE". Think "A-tier" not "S-tier"), not just a viable one.

And if we get called "the green favorite child" for it, that's a price I'll gladly accept to pay.

[anbujackson.9564]

2 hours ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

What complains? All I see nowadays is Firebrand and Mechanist. Even Scourge isn't even brought out anymore. And it wasn't like Scourge was even remotely close to FB even at its best... Let the crybabies cry, we desserve a good profession in all game modes (and no "good" doesn't mean "Firebrand level in PvE". Think "A-tier" not "S-tier"), not just a viable one.

And if we get called "the green favorite child" for it, that's a price I'll gladly accept to pay.

Scourge and harbringer are A-tier or well S for scourge. 

People just dont realize the true worth of a spec. No. They look at benches, see that their own bench is lower and think that the spec is bad or well worse than the other. Which is not true. Then they switch classes or specs and have a lower performance and not even realizing that.

I mean just join any non power boss as scourge and out dps literally everything. 

Then again, player skill and knowledge plays a huge factor. People play the op stuff and still do worse than you. You can take pre buffed untamed and be top dps in like 80% of PuGs. 

[Kaladel.1670]

2 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Scourge and harbringer are A-tier or well S for scourge. 

People just dont realize the true worth of a spec. No. They look at benches, see that their own bench is lower and think that the spec is bad or well worse than the other. Which is not true. Then they switch classes or specs and have a lower performance and not even realizing that.

I mean just join any non power boss as scourge and out dps literally everything. 

Then again, player skill and knowledge plays a huge factor. People play the op stuff and still do worse than you. You can take pre buffed untamed and be top dps in like 80% of PuGs. 

I disagree with putting Scourge in S tier. To me, that's the spot for real OP things that needs to be taken down a peg. Currently, Scourge has a niche and perform well in that niche or is a decent but not top of the world DPS. Nothing desserving S-tier (in the past, that was another story, but things have changed).

Harbinger seem fine, too bad it competes with the most OP spec in the game for it's support role. But this isn't the E-Spec fault, this is a core design problem and this isn't the role of an E-Spec to fix the core profession. (Or nerf other professions)

You put emphasis on skill and knowledge and I agree with you, those are probably the most important things. But balance must be done assuming everyone has the same level in those domains.

And you made me realize that most of my issues with the necromancer are exactly that : issues with the core profession. Reaper has some issues too, but nothing as glaring as those with core. But I'll stop derailing this topic 😅

[Raizel.8175]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:16 PM, SeTect.5918 said:

But scourge has been quite good lately, or even op. In fact when harbinger was released with 41k dps, people saw no reason to use it bc scourge has faaaaaaar better sustain while just having like 3k less dps. And we dont know the benchmark for scourge yet.

Speaking from personal experience, people actually did play Harbinger especially due to its higher DPS potential, but later returned to playing Scourge due to Scourge being far less susceptible to outside influences. If you don't nail both Life Force and Blight Management and are able to make the fullest out of Harbinger Shroud - especially using Shroud 3 and 4 as your strongest skills -, your DPS will suck. Scourge is a lot easier to play, far less susceptible to outside influences and you have at least one free utility slot while all utility slots on Harbinger are pretty much locked in place.

[Sporks.4395]

I love necro. WvW main tho... all the elite specs have a purpose in WvW. harbinger is op roaming, scourge is excellent in a zerg, reaper is even fun in a mele ball zerg. PvE tho, I would rather just run something else. Necro is very boring in PvE IMO. The builds just have not changed that much. After so many years you just get tired of doing the same thing. Harb is fun, but it's very easy to play in PvE. It's one of the Especs I use when I'm sick, tired, or watching a movie. Just boring to play.

 

[kaese.8765]

what is metha?