When and Why was Dragon's End named (or renamed) in-Universe?

[Magix Keleton.9083]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

My line of thought...

Oh! I was responding to Greyhawk in particular, but I appreciate your additions to the discussion!
(Quote-in-quote)

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

If not for a Naga priestess named Hanasha Coralfin the entire race might well have died out within a few years, perhaps even a few months. The priestess used what power she had left to revive those survivors she could find, who then brought more survivors to her, until a united Naga tribe of barely 40 individuals gathered.

So the priestess was able to revive survivors, which implies to me that she gathered and tended to them, rather than restoring petrified naga by some mechanism. Hmm, square one.

1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I'll try to reiterate what I mean by "where did these people come from".  Where were all the other cities, towns, and farmlands of Cantha that much if not most of the population would have inhabited originally? The Jade Wind, from what I've seen and read, seems to have effected almost exclusive only two areas, the Luxon and the Kurzicks homelands.  Two areas, again as far as I can tell, were almost exclusively inhabited by said two peoples and seemed to not have a significant amount of "regular" Canthans inhabiting them.  There probably were a few, but there doesn't seem to have been enough of note.  If in some fever-dream like alternate reality I had been given complete control over how Guild Wars Factions was made, I would have included a Third area or biome that would have also been devastated by the Jade Wind, an area that would have been where most of the Canthan population would have inhabited prior to the JW.

Hope that clears things up.

Okay, I think I'm following. I may have taken it as a given that Kurzicks, Luxons and "Imperial" Canthans were each ethnically distinct groups.

From Major Events - Late Pre-Imperial Era, An Empire Divided

Quote

Even in Tyria, we humans have forgotten where we came from...literally. All that is known of the origin of the Tyrian human race is that our species appeared more than 1,200 years ago on the northern continent. Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.

I think this is reflected in how the Kaineng sprawl reaches down the Canthan coastline, offshore from Shing Jea (which is the modern seat of influence now, so... /shrug?)

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I'll try to reiterate what I mean by "where did these people come from".  Where were all the other cities, towns, and farmlands of Cantha that much if not most of the population would have inhabited originally? The Jade Wind, from what I've seen and read, seems to have effected almost exclusive only two areas, the Luxon and the Kurzicks homelands.  Two areas, again as far as I can tell, were almost exclusively inhabited by said two peoples and seemed to not have a significant amount of "regular" Canthans inhabiting them.  There probably were a few, but there doesn't seem to have been enough of note.  If in some fever-dream like alternate reality I had been given complete control over how Guild Wars Factions was made, I would have included a Third area or biome that would have also been devastated by the Jade Wind, an area that would have been where most of the Canthan population would have inhabited prior to the JW.

Still not sure what the existence of the Cathedrals and the Navies has to do with my previous comment or  this second second response of yours. 🤔

That said, I'm sure there were some of each faction that ended up in Mega-City One Kaineng but its unlike to have been more than a very small contribution.  Both factions are incredibly proud and aggressively stubborn, they've clung to their respective cultures, traditions, and independence so strongly that they had to have been completely subjugated (and from some accounts partially genocided) just to get them to leave their homelands of dubious habitability.  You aren't likely to get a lot of individuals out of such peoples that are willing to walk away, even under great distress.

But if I'm wrong and over-exaggerating that much of the Luxon and Kurzicks' populations willingness to live in such hard conditions, the above described traits are still hold true in this other scenario.  If a decent amount of each faction remains in Metropolis Kaineng and they also made up a significant percentage of the city's over-population, I've little reason to believe that they would have assimilated.  They would have clung to their culture and identity almost as strongly as if they still lived in Echovald and the Jade Sea, and there probably wouldn't have been enough Canthans to overwhelm them and absorb them, not completely, and there was no Usoku or Ministry of Purity to try to force them to do so.  Otherwise half the NPC names in Midgar (ok, I'll stop) Kaineng would have been Luxon or Kurzick.  And then there's also the fact that each faction, contrary to what I'd thought for a fair number of years, are apparently each completely ethnically distinct from the "Asian" Canthans, the population of Kaineng and possibly the rest of Cantha would have looked noticeably different during GW Factions.

Cantha is just plain missing a place for all the people that ended up in Kaineng to have originally come from.

Unless you factor in another option.

That those who were the most stubborn remained and that transformed into how fierce the Kurzicks and Luxons became, because all the people who weren't as deep into the culture had left and joined Kaineng and thus assimilated into the Empire.

 

The point about cathedrals and navies was to point out how the two nations had high populations, of levels that perhaps don't entirely match what we've seen of them after the Jade Wind. The Forest and Jade Sea are dangerous places, which could be a factor of a reduced human presence. You ask where did all these refugees come from? It's obvious that they came from the affected regions. So the border region Canthans flee into the city, as well as chunks of the survivors from the Luxon and Kurzick regions. This means that those who remain behind become even more distinct from the main Canthan group as the stubborn natures of those cultures becomes enhanced. Meanwhile the groups who lived in those regions as part of those nations, but perhaps held less attachment have left and joined the Empire, and settled into life there.

 

It's explicitly clear that those who fled into Kaineng stayed there, we don't hear about a flood of refugees into the city who later disperse back as the first shockwaves/troubles end. And for all we know, Kaineng may have been influenced and changed over time post the refugee population explosion. It's not like we have a clear before and after of the culture of the city or Kurzick/Luxons.

Hell, maybe the Kurzicks and Luxon regions actually expanded to cover now abandoned areas that used to be the borderlands, because they became so used to living in the conditions.

[Kalavier.1097]

double post

Edited July 16, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The point about cathedrals and navies was to point out how the two nations had high populations, of levels that perhaps don't entirely match what we've seen of them after the Jade Wind. The Forest and Jade Sea are dangerous places, which could be a factor of a reduced human presence. You ask where did all these refugees come from? It's obvious that they came from the affected regions. So the border region Canthans flee into the city, as well as chunks of the survivors from the Luxon and Kurzick regions. This means that those who remain behind become even more distinct from the main Canthan group as the stubborn natures of those cultures becomes enhanced. Meanwhile the groups who lived in those regions as part of those nations, but perhaps held less attachment have left and joined the Empire, and settled into life there.

I have to side with Greyhawk on this one.

Even if we assume significantly higher populations in the Echovald and Jade Sea before the Jade winds, theres no realistic way for those areas to have the kinds of populations necessary to turn Kaineng City into the giant, overdeveloped, mess that it is back in GW1.

Both regions are significantly less livable then Kaineng, due to factors like limited space on what was one just a giant open sea, meaning they should have significantly less population then Kaineng proper. However, the urban growth in the city in GW1 would only be possible if the population of the city somehow quadrupled, or quintupled nearly overnight. Which just doesn't add up. Then you have to factor in food issues, disease issues, and violence issues, which would have taken the initial number of refugees down considerably.

Its pretty clear that Kaineng in GW1 was built for feel rather then because it made sense for it to be that way. Especially when you consider that Kaineng city was nearly as large as the whole of Istan, which is itself supposed to be a fully functional island nation.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

35 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I have to side with Greyhawk on this one.

Even if we assume significantly higher populations in the Echovald and Jade Sea before the Jade winds, theres no realistic way for those areas to have the kinds of populations necessary to turn Kaineng City into the giant, overdeveloped, mess that it is back in GW1.

Both regions are significantly less livable then Kaineng, due to factors like limited space on what was one just a giant open sea, meaning they should have significantly less population then Kaineng proper. However, the urban growth in the city in GW1 would only be possible if the population of the city somehow quadrupled, or quintupled nearly overnight. Which just doesn't add up. Then you have to factor in food issues, disease issues, and violence issues, which would have taken the initial number of refugees down considerably.

Its pretty clear that Kaineng in GW1 was built for feel rather then because it made sense for it to be that way. Especially when you consider that Kaineng city was nearly as large as the whole of Istan, which is itself supposed to be a fully functional island nation.

That assumes that Kaineng exploded near instantly(in comparison) to it's current borders(as of factions), instead of expanding over time up and outwards.

There was what, 200 years between jade wind and factions?

edit: Also, Echovald forest is factored into this as well. Both nations were equals then are are equals in Factions, which would be hard if one has a massive population advantage as well as the fact before the Jade wind the Luxons didn't really have the siege turtles, just a Navy (which limits their power to just the Jade Sea).

 

edit2: My point is a chunk of the population could've been kurzick and Luxon who assimilated into the culture, and then population growth from the children of the refugees expanded Kaineng. An alternative is that border region saw it's inhabitants rush further north, and as population grew the city expanded outwards and upwards. So instead of it just being refugees from the jade wind regions, we saw people in the lesser affects areas fleeing north due to fear of after effects?

 

Maatu keep is described as being one of the oldest sections of the city, and sits at the border of Pongmei valley. But that area is also described as the only area of Kaineng city not overtaken by urban sprawl.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

16 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Here are the main lore document for Guild Wars Factions: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Canthan_Culture https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conflict_in_Cantha  (Kongi will know if I'm missing any).

Those are the main ones, from the Prima Guide, manual, and website respectively. But they're hardly the majority of GW1 Factions lore - just an introduction (detailed introduction in the first one's case). There is also For the Future of Cantha! timeline from Winds of Change, though it focuses on between Factions and WoC.

To talk about where these people who flooded Kaineng come from, I don't remember the exact source but it was from GW1, in-game, where it was mentioned that most refugees were Luxons, Kurzicks and other more southern Canthans (which do exist, even in GW1). Keeping in mind that what we experience in-game is scaled down, there are many references to historical Cantha pre-Kaineng's expansion of villages and towns throughout Cantha, but no sign of them in GW1 beyond one nameless town in Mount Qinkai.

 

Quote

I'm afraid that's not quite what I meant by "where did they (the people that over-populated Kaineng and over-expanded) come from?"  Though you've hit on another line of questions I've had regarding how their was any life, human or otherwise, left to repopulate the areas within the radius of the Jade Wind.  By all accounts there shouldn't have been much more survivors of either the Luxons or the Kurzicks than there were of the people of Orr.  But that's a tangent for another time.

In regards to this, early lore does imply that all life hit by the Jade Wind's distance got petrified, which the trailer also shows with it petrifying deer mid-leap and birds mid-flight or An Empire Divided suggesting by saying Vizu died on the shoreline trying to escape, but lore pretty firmly shows that isn't the case. For example:

• Gaki, while diminished, survived the Jade Wind.
• Wardens and Saltspray Dragons survived the Jade Wind.
• Samti Kohlreg survived the Jade Wind.

However, if we take a look at the entry for Vizu's death in An Empire Divided:

Vizu, her senses returned, witnessed the earliest effects of what became known as the Jade Wind only by using every ounce of Energy she had left. For almost half a minute she stayed one Shadow Step ahead of the screaming shockwave as it petrified the landscape, laying waste to any living thing in its path. She reached the edge of the Jade Sea before her luck and strength finally gave out, and she died a stony figure on an empty beach. Years later, when Canthan society began to recover, the new emperor's Ritualists would find a way to retrieve the brave Assassin's soul from the netherworld and preserve her essence in a sacred place.

Well, which 'edge of the Jade Sea'? For all we know, she was heading west and only made it as far as the Kurzick Unwaking Waters outpost, which isn't very far at all. And if we ignore the cgi trailer which was outsourced and had to be using relatively early drafts of lore (just as An Empire Divided had to, hence some conflicting issues in the Prima Guide - which also exists for the Prophecies Prima Guide), well it seems that living beings being petrified directly only happened in the "immediate" vicinity. And elsewhere it was just the landscape being petrified.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086