Instant Armor-Reinforcing Cansters should be removed from Gemstore

[Vegeta.2563]

This item costs 150 gems for 5.  Meanwhile you can get the same buff from an anvil or NPC that lasts 12 hours.

Leaving these on the gemstore is literally scamming people.  It's no longer considered a convenient item when you only need to apply it every 12 hours.  And for free for that matter.

Please remove this item from the gemstore and from the black lion chest of goods (login reward).

[Linken.6345]

Agree with this

[Danikat.8537]

I wouldn't call it a scam because you get exactly what it says. I do think it's misleading when you can get exactly the same buff in-game for free and the convenience of being able to apply it without finding an anvil is much, much lower than when it was repairing your armour (even then I don't think it was ever worth buying). There's a lot of gem store items you can get in-game, but as far as I remember they all have a gold or time cost to get - transmutation charges for example, you can get them for free but you have to do things like WvW or map completion. Whereas this is literally just a matter of clickin on an anvil, so I can't imagine anyone would consider it preferable to buy them.

If it's going to stay in the gem store (because I'm sure there will be someone arguing that they want to buy it) I think the description should be updated to make it very clear you can get exactly the same thing instantly and for free in any town, raid, dungeon etc. so at least those who choose to buy it will understand they're only getting a very minimal convenience.

[vanfrano.1325]

+1

[JayHog.3280]

This is one of the things I was curious what Anet would do. Because if these things become walking buffs that you can already get for free with anvils, then there's really no point in keeping the items, or at least in the way they exist.

 

I would say that either they nerf the anvil to half duration, so the canisters get more use, or have canisters be as easy as ingame crafting for people that think it's worth anything.

 

Because right now, the canisters are, in a sense, the most worthless thing to exist for gems.

[Zebulous.2934]

reminds me of the time Elder Scrolls Online had skill respecification scrolls on sale in their cash shop.  They got heavy criticism from their player base because you can respec at a divine alter by paying gold in game.  Many accused zenimax of trying to scam the new players: "new players aren't going to know about the divine alters, and are just going to see something on sale and assume that it is a good idea to stock up."
As far as I know the scrolls are still available in their cash shop.

It would suck for a new player to buy canasters and then realize what happened and decide to quit because they felt taken advantage of.  They may even be too embarrassed to tell anyone why they quit.  We certainly don't want new players quitting over trivial stuff like this.

[Gajex.2386]

Wait, you guys can enter the gemstore without it crashing most of the time?

 

Not quite a joke aside, don't think it was malice. Feels more like neglect, not that this would be any better.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The problem isn't the item, its that this buff lasts for far too long. 1-2 hours would've been plenty, and still put a bit of stress on players to find an anvil or carry this item for peak efficiency.

 

Keep in mind that's 12 hours of playtime, not real world time, which is rediculous.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Danikat.8537]

2 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

reminds me of the time Elder Scrolls Online had skill respecification scrolls on sale in their cash shop.  They got heavy criticism from their player base because you can respec at a divine alter by paying gold in game.  Many accused zenimax of trying to scam the new players: "new players aren't going to know about the divine alters, and are just going to see something on sale and assume that it is a good idea to stock up."
As far as I know the scrolls are still available in their cash shop.

It would suck for a new player to buy canasters and then realize what happened and decide to quit because they felt taken advantage of.  They may even be too embarrassed to tell anyone why they quit.  We certainly don't want new players quitting over trivial stuff like this.

I was thinking of the vampire and werewolf bites/cures, but it's the same idea. When I was looking for a 'wild' vampire in that game I talked to several people who had no idea it had even been available before it was added to the crown store, they thought every player vampire or werewolf had paid for it or got it from someone who did.

This definitely seems similar in that in theory it seems ok to have the option there for those who want it but in practice what's likely to happen is someone buying it because they've never noticed the anvils or think the paid version must be better in some way and ending up angry and dissapointed that they wasted their money.

[Labjax.2465]

It's a joke of a bonus at this point for sure. Evident they rushed to give it a purpose after deciding they wanted to get rid of repair. I weep for anyone who actually spends gems on this.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Consider that ANet made them function as they now do because (a lot of people (probably) have a lot of them, either gotten for free or bought.

 

Also consider that exchanging gold for gems to get the 150 gems to buy 5 of the canisters was way more in-game coin than paying at the anvil used to be.  Of course, once the anvil became free, this was even more so.

 

So, why did the canisters continue to exist?  Because some people would rather buy them than find an anvil.  That is the only possible explanation, and continues to hold true whether to gain a buff or repair armor.

 

Don' think it's worth the cost.  Don't buy it.  But get used to the idea that ANet is happy to take whatever odds and ends it can get from players who cba to go a few seconds out of their way.  That's the way convenience micro-transactions work.

 

Or, you can keep angsting about how ANet is scamming, even though this is nowhere near the definition.

Edited July 11, 2022 by IndigoSundown.5419

[Labjax.2465]

9 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Consider that ANet made them function as they now do because (a lot of people (probably) have a lot of them, either gotten for free or bought.

 

Also consider that exchanging gold for gems to get the 150 gems to buy 5 of the canisters was way more in-game coin than paying at the anvil used to be.  Of course, once the anvil became free, this was even more so.

 

So, why did the canisters continue to exist?  Because some people would rather buy them than find an anvil.  That is the only possible explanation, and continues to hold true whether to gain a buff or repair armor.

 

Don' think it's worth the cost.  Don't buy it.  But get used to the idea that ANet is happy to take whatever odds and ends it can get from players who cba to go a few seconds out of their way.  That's the way convenience micro-transactions work.

 

Or, you can keep angsting about how ANet is scamming, even though this is nowhere near the definition.

It is deceptive in the fact that you can easily get the buff from an anvil, but there's nothing to tell you that before you buy. Scam is an accurate way of describing it. It doesn't have to be that way; it could warn you in good faith and they could still change it to do so. If they don't in any way acknowledge it, they are essentially saying they're fine with the possibility of it deceiving people, which amounts to the same as if they intentionally did it to deceive people.

This is not angst, it's basic bare minimum advocating for customers.

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

Don't reduce the duration of the anvil buff, just have the player lose it when they get downed or defeated.

All problems solved.

[robertthebard.8150]

Wait, people buy them?  I've got a stack of 'em, not sure how big, that I got from either login rewards or from when I get a key from map completion and open a chest.

BTW, does anyone here care to guess how I learned about anvils in game?

 

Spoiler

It was the only vendor at whatever camp I was at when I needed to sell a bunch of stuff.

Spoiler

Oops.

That's how...

[Cronospere.8143]

21 hours ago, Vegeta.2563 said:

This item costs 150 gems for 5.  Meanwhile you can get the same buff from an anvil or NPC that lasts 12 hours.

Leaving these on the gemstore is literally scamming people.  It's no longer considered a convenient item when you only need to apply it every 12 hours.  And for free for that matter.

Please remove this item from the gemstore and from the black lion chest of goods (login reward).

Did anyone even buy them before they changed to a buff? Same for box of fun? 

[Ashantara.8731]

I absolutely agree.

I also wish I could turn my Endless Repair, sorry, Reinforcing Canister into the tradeable version again. I would totally sell this item now, as it has become redundant.
 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[IndigoSundown.5419]

6 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It is deceptive in the fact that you can easily get the buff from an anvil, but there's nothing to tell you that before you buy. Scam is an accurate way of describing it. It doesn't have to be that way; it could warn you in good faith and they could still change it to do so. If they don't in any way acknowledge it, they are essentially saying they're fine with the possibility of it deceiving people, which amounts to the same as if they intentionally did it to deceive people.

This is not angst, it's basic bare minimum advocating for customers.

Let's look at the word, "scam."

 

 The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word as, "A dishonest scheme, a fraud."

 

"Dishonest" and "fraud" involve misinformation. "Scheme" involves intent.  There is no misinformation.  Players who have been in the game long enough to remember armor repair (like what, since 2-3 weeks ago?) should know that the anvils/NPC's exist in game.
 

Then, there's Occam's Razor.  If you believe that there is a problem, which you obviously do, why assume that there is malice intended, which would need to be the case for fraud?  The simplest explanation for the omission of the information you'd like to see is that ANet has a long history of being explanation-light about the game.  Yet you'd prefer to assume cynical, manipulative salesmanship.

 

A lot of posters misappropriate negatively-loaded terminology in an effort to build agreement with their gripe, whatever it is.    Far and away the most common such misappropriation involves the term "pay-to-win."  Sometimes, these posters have many issues with the game and make lots of complaint posts.  Perhaps, though, you are just mistaken in your use of the terms "deceptive" and "scam."

 

That's not to say I'd complain if ANet put in the disclaimer you mention.  I just think this situation is the proverbial "tempest in a teapot."

Edited July 12, 2022 by IndigoSundown.5419

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Let's look at the word, "scam."

 

 The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word as, "A dishonest scheme, a fraud."

 

"Dishonest" and "fraud" involve misinformation. "Scheme" involves intent.  There is no misinformation.  Players who have been in the game long enough to remember armor repair (like what, since 2-3 weeks ago?) should know that the anvils/NPC's exist in game.
 

Then, there's Occam's Razor.  If you believe that there is a problem, which you obviously do, why assume that there is malice intended, which would need to be the case for fraud?  The simplest explanation for the omission of the information you'd like to see is that ANet has a long history of being explanation-light about the game.  Yet you'd prefer to assume cynical, manipulative salesmanship.

 

A lot of posters misappropriate negatively-loaded terminology in an effort to build agreement with their gripe, whatever it is.    Far and away the most common such misappropriation involves the term "pay-to-win."  Sometimes, these posters have many issues with the game and make lots of complaint posts.  Perhaps, though, you are just mistaken in your use of the terms "deceptive" and "scam."

 

That's not to say I'd complain if ANet put in the disclaimer you mention.  I just think this situation is the proverbial "tempest in a teapot."

Merriam Webster:

scam: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation

As I said:

Quote

If they don't in any way acknowledge it, they are essentially saying they're fine with the possibility of it deceiving people, which amounts to the same as if they intentionally did it to deceive people.

i.e. it really doesn't matter whether it's malice because the outcome is the same. I'm not using loaded terminology. I understand exactly what I'm saying. Do you understand what you're saying, putting words in my mouth about their intentions so you can pretend that I'm overreacting?

Maybe you should focus on the material reality of the situation instead of hypotheticals and definitions of words.

[Bakeneko.5826]

20 hours ago, JayHog.3280 said:

This is one of the things I was curious what Anet would do. Because if these things become walking buffs that you can already get for free with anvils, then there's really no point in keeping the items, or at least in the way they exist.

 

I would say that either they nerf the anvil to half duration, so the canisters get more use, or have canisters be as easy as ingame crafting for people that think it's worth anything.

 

Because right now, the canisters are, in a sense, the most worthless thing to exist for gems.

You can also use merchant, bank and TP for free in hubs, are contract scam as well, seen as they are gotten from Black lion chests?

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You can also use merchant, bank and TP for free in hubs, are contract scam as well, seen as they are gotten from Black lion chests?

They are not the same design at all...

Those are specifically things you can't access anywhere other than hubs, so the convenience is to be able to access it outside of a hub. The armor reinforcing things can be accessed all over the place (anywhere repair used to be) and lasts for 12 hours. That's half a day, more time probably than most will even be logged in, in a single day. But there is nothing to guarantee a person will know this. They may look at the gemstore, new, and think it's just an armor buff you can buy and consider it because they keep dying. Not realizing that's what the anvil is for and is something they can tap just about anywhere and not spend a dime.

So not only is the item on the store a bad deal, it's for something you may not even learn about organically, especially as it relates to the item in the store. For example, you could use the anvil, but not make the connection between it and what is in the store.

Distinctions do matter.

[JayHog.3280]

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You can also use merchant, bank and TP for free in hubs, are contract scam as well, seen as they are gotten from Black lion chests?

At least contracts probably have better use in the long term. Can't really say much about them since I only have a board, nothing else fancier.

[Zebulous.2934]

well, it costs money to change your hair, the hair style contract removes that cost from that point forward.

The same for the extractor contract.

The banker, merchant, and repair contracts allowed you to use those services while in dungeons, story, or other instanced content.  Not having to leave instanced content, in order to manage your inventory or repair, was useful if leaving the instance reset the instance.

Imagine if the merchant contract no longer summoned a merchant, but gave you a .5% discount on taxes you paid when listing an item on the trading post.  For the majority of players this would be useless. (admittedly, wholesalers would be desperate to get one.)
Imagine if the bank contract stopped allowing you to access your bank remotely, but instead let you access your current guild's bank instead.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

6 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Merriam Webster:

scam: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation

As I said:

i.e. it really doesn't matter whether it's malice because the outcome is the same. I'm not using loaded terminology. I understand exactly what I'm saying. Do you understand what you're saying, putting words in my mouth about their intentions so you can pretend that I'm overreacting?

Maybe you should focus on the material reality of the situation instead of hypotheticals and definitions of words.

Suit yourself.  I still think this is much ado about nothing.

 

I'd be surprised if it turned out there are really any sales of the canisters, but perhaps I'm not as aware of just how much people want to avoid going out of their way at all.  I always thought they exist in the store at all in order to create the perception that they have some value when they drop as login rewards or from BLC's.

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Suit yourself.  I still think this is much ado about nothing.

 

I'd be surprised if it turned out there are really any sales of the canisters, but perhaps I'm not as aware of just how much people want to avoid going out of their way at all.  I always thought they exist in the store at all in order to create the perception that they have some value when they drop as login rewards or from BLC's.

If you ever try presenting someone with a new technology/website/game/etc. that you are used to and watch them interact with it over their shoulder, I'd bet your expectations will change some. It can be eye-opening the things we take for granted as obvious once we're familiar with something that people miss entirely.

You can also pick this up sometimes in passing just by what people say they don't understand. For example, it's not uncommon to run into a player or two in Drizzlewood who doesn't know you can parachute into places.

[mythical.6315]

15 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It is deceptive in the fact that you can easily get the buff from an anvil, but there's nothing to tell you that before you buy. Scam is an accurate way of describing it. It doesn't have to be that way; it could warn you in good faith and they could still change it to do so. If they don't in any way acknowledge it, they are essentially saying they're fine with the possibility of it deceiving people, which amounts to the same as if they intentionally did it to deceive people.

This is not angst, it's basic bare minimum advocating for customers.

Failure to understand the system including to actually think doesn’t make it a scam. 

The buff was primarily highlighted as coming from anvils; that’s how it was introduced.  You get the buff from repairing so logic dictates you get them from the anvils as well as those repair kits. Gem store items do not need a list of disclaimers because of people who buy things without understanding them in the first place. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by mythical.6315