We need WvW system changes, some things just don't mesh with PvE/PvP

[Riba.3271]

We need following system changes to WvW:

• Superspeed has 66% effectiveness (Note: 100% -> 66%. Personal superspeed skills buffed duration in WvW)
• Concentration and expertise stats are 60% as effective (Note: Minstrel/Celestial/Trailblazer nerf)
• Downed state health reduced by 20% (Note: 75%/50%/25% -> 60%/40%/20%)
• Quickness, Vigor and Alacrity effects reduced by 20% (Note: 50%->40%, 50%->40%, 25%->20%)
• Gliding disabled in combat

 

Related changes or class buffs:

• Scrapper minor trait will give scrapper 100% superspeed effectiveness on himself
• Speed runes: 100% -> 66% movement speed

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Rider.6024]

personally I think the balance issues are

 

1. siege disablers should not be affected by unblockable buff, 1 person with a stab or stealth and unblockable can shut down an entire siege for quite some time

 

2. more classes need access to reveal and strips

 

3. firebrand should not have a monopoly on aoe stab

 

4. cele is overtuned, nerf overall stats by 10% and quickly revisit to tweak it to 7% or 13% if needed etc

[kash.9213]

You would instantly kill a lot of builds that put thought into stat thresholds effectively leaving only the problematic builds you're concerned about, if they even are that much of a problem, since they'd be the only ones reaching their thresholds without cutting another key stat too low. 

You're not dealing with the actual problem with Downstate, you're only making it less interesting as a part of the team dynamic. 

If you're already messing with Concentration, for reasons, why mess with the boons behind it at that point? 

You seriously have a problem with gliding in combat? If you can glide in combat, great. If the enemy can glide in combat, great, they can't mitigate your damage, pulls, or other control. 

Seems like you're answer is to take out fun stuff and leave the problems only slightly reduced. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

36 minutes ago, Rider.6024 said:

personally I think the balance issues are

 

1. siege disablers should not be affected by unblockable buff, 1 person with a stab or stealth and unblockable can shut down an entire siege for quite some time

 

2. more classes need access to reveal and strips

 

3. firebrand should not have a monopoly on aoe stab

 

4. cele is overtuned, nerf overall stats by 10% and quickly revisit to tweak it to 7% or 13% if needed etc

On the other hand, siege disablers shouldn't be affected by personal blocks and Aegis as well.
Classes without any unblockable buff can just kiss themselves when some random dude with Aegis blocks your disabler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Xenesis.6389]

36 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

On the other hand, siege disablers shouldn't be affected by personal blocks and Aegis as well.
Classes without any unblockable buff can just kiss themselves when some random dude with Aegis blocks your disabler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah I don't have a problem with disablers at the moment, too many things can stop them easily.

If people are in a zerg with the potential to spam shields, build shield gens, cata shields, cc's, pulls, there's no reason a disabler should get through. Anything else pay attention to who's around and don't just stand around looking for butterflies. To this day, 10 years later, people can't even rotate shields properly on a line of cata's, that's not on the defenders, that's on those attackers for screwing up. Pay attention and counter properly.

If anything disablers should be unblockable, but put on a much longer cooldown.

 

[Ronin.4501]

9 hours ago, Threather.9354 said:

We need following system changes to WvW:

• Gliding disabled in combat

NO!!! OMG NO!!! Few things are as satisfying as fighting a player who thinks they've successfully escaped a losing fight by gliding away, only to blast them out of the sky and watch them fall to their death!! Don't take that away from us!!

[Rider.6024]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

On the other hand, siege disablers shouldn't be affected by personal blocks and Aegis as well.
Classes without any unblockable buff can just kiss themselves when some random dude with Aegis blocks your disabler. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Touche

[Riba.3271]

21 hours ago, Ronin.4501 said:

NO!!! OMG NO!!! Few things are as satisfying as fighting a player who thinks they've successfully escaped a losing fight by gliding away, only to blast them out of the sky and watch them fall to their death!! Don't take that away from us!!

Actually you would get more satisfying experiences of enemies dying from falling damage. Sometimes they will survive on 1% but you can chase much more people off walls and cliffs. You will also have many more tools to knock people off larger cliffs since launches and knockbacks will function as well and they can't glide before hitting the ground.

 

23 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

 

If you're already messing with Concentration, for reasons, why mess with the boons behind it at that point? 

Point is that if some boons are offensively or defensively too strong, they will change gameplay too much. Imagine quickness being at 300% faster casts and people dying instantly. Same applies to endurance regen being over the top when combined with energy sigils. Overall if some boons are overly strong, they change fight dynamics too much.

 

23 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

You would instantly kill a lot of builds that put thought into stat thresholds effectively leaving only the problematic builds you're concerned about, if they even are that much of a problem, since they'd be the only ones reaching their thresholds without cutting another key stat too low. 

No one really plays concentration outside minstrel/cele builds. Overall boon duration is not a great stat outside overstatted cele unless running in a group where it gets multiple times the effectiveness. Reason nerfing concentration is best option is because it is obviously overstatted: You can get 42.2% extra boon duration just from equipping minor stat, and it doesn't affect small scale outside cele bunkers (that will still have received large buff and be viable) at all.

 

Overpowered stats like these are actually killing the build diversity regarding support (and smallscale). Of course you can make argument any change in the game is bad because people will have to adapt, but state of game is more important and you should come up with better argument why 60%+ longer boons (note: runes+food) being everywhere do not break the game design and become mandatory.

23 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

You seriously have a problem with gliding in combat? If you can glide in combat, great. If the enemy can glide in combat, great, they can't mitigate your damage, pulls, or other control. 

Gliding in combat has several problems like players being able to jump off ignoring 1 key game mechanic: falling damage.  Let us take trebbing/cataing from anza cliff as example. If offensive players own anza, they can just cata keep from this risky spot for free and then glide away anytime a large group shows up. And keep doing this without even dying. Even if the blob "outplays" them by sending a player ahead to get them in combat. So no counterplay. Then from offensive players perspective, lets say defensive players bomb those catas and glide away at 20%. Then they come back. Anza is just one example, other ones largely happening are when you are already taking big risks 1v1ing or pushing enemies off siege at their claim buff. Single targeting, taking risks and chasing targets down is part of WvW. Anza is just one example.

 

Of course pulls exist in larger scale fights, but WvW doesn't play around it. Enemy can just pop stab and glide away unless you're directly on top of them with multiple players.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Ronin.4501]

On 7/12/2022 at 12:52 PM, Threather.9354 said:

Actually you would get more satisfying experiences of enemies dying from falling damage. Sometimes they will survive on 1% but you can chase much more people off walls and cliffs. You will also have many more tools to knock people off larger cliffs since launches and knockbacks will function as well and they can't glide before hitting the ground.

Actually I wouldn't.  Far more players already jump off of cliffs just to deny you the satisfaction of spiking them.  At least this provides some sort of pleasure from killing the players who think they've escaped.

[Redmezz.2065]

On 7/11/2022 at 3:29 AM, Threather.9354 said:

We need following system changes to WvW:

• Superspeed has 66% effectiveness (Note: 100% -> 66%. Personal superspeed skills buffed duration in WvW)
• Concentration and expertise stats are 60% as effective (Note: Minstrel/Celestial/Trailblazer nerf)
• Downed state health reduced by 20% (Note: 75%/50%/25% -> 60%/40%/20%)
• Quickness, Vigor and Alacrity effects reduced by 20% (Note: 50%->40%, 50%->40%, 25%->20%)
• Gliding disabled in combat

 

Related changes or class buffs:

• Scrapper minor trait will give scrapper 100% superspeed effectiveness on himself
• Speed runes: 100% -> 66% movement speed

 

 

Superspeed is how melee squads operate in open field. Melee groups are already punished heavily if they make errors so I dislike this idea. 

Conc/Exp are not game-changing boons in group play - I see this more of a roamer change so I won't comment.

Downed state health reduction - playing around downstates is part of group play and when a squad focuses a downed member they die in seconds as is. Reducing that leaves revive skills much harder to execute. I don't think this is needed. I do see this as annoying from a roamer's perspective. 

Quickness/Vigor/Alac reduction - I don't understand why this would be needed so I can't really comment. 
Gliding disabled in combat - not a bad proposition as mounts are disabled as well. Fighting on home turf has to have its advantages so I see both sides of the coin. I'm an oldschool WvWer so I wouldn't mind this being disabled as you suggested.

 

I think your problem stems from cele builds operating at a high level in roaming environments. I think a more "proper balance" would be to nerf cele stats so they receive these boon reductions and pure condi/power builds stay strong. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Redknot.1042

[TheGrimm.5624]

Run all three, power builds, condi and cele. Cele is in a position to have a place at the table currently but doesn't replace spots where power or condi builds make more sense. There are sustain builds in all three and have some places but not all. If you have played long enough you can remember when Cele was pretty much BiS but that's not now, it has some spots but there are places for all three. 

Gliding, being able to glide in your territory adds one more reason to want to control an area. To some that adds additional strategy to what you want to take. Now does this factor into a majority of players thoughts on capping objectives, definitely no. Does it factor into some havoc gameplay, yes. Removing it continues to just nerf defenders as well, so would prefer that doesn't not get changed. If you need to take out a flyer as it was said above. Bring a pocket ranged CC player along to aid in the fight and enjoy the potential for a free kill. 

Downed state is a big conversation and could use some week long testing of various combos. That said you will find all sorts of reasons for people looking to have it changed that are a wide range of reasons. I won't try and state them all but will state one, to have more balance in gameplay versus just size matters. Right now in my opinion its still winner take all and if winning is just based on body count that's not a real encouragement for people to even try especially if they already see outnumbered. Said before and will again, its easier to just attack and we keep nerfing tools, abilities and reasons to defend when you get nothing but long runs back as a defender when all you want to do is not lose your stuff.

Hence will also agree, forget the stacking, we need reasons to win the week and we want people to defend and we need to give them options to be able to do so. Award the players for their own actions while playing but award the server for winning, what award means is to be debated. Take the change to outnumbered, the worry was about 'piphunters' where the effect was outnumbered now means, leave map or get out the zergs way till they have karma-trained everything that's empty because odds are people aren't going to defend since they would just be rewarded with a quick trip back to spawn if they don't have people themselves. 

So no, we don't need more reasons for people to not care about holding territory and we don't need less abilities for people to try and hold what they have, gliding was a good addition and should stay.

 

[Odin.6487]

you do realize anet struggles to balance individual classes right. the "big" update we got wasnt even an update, it was more like a revert. 

 

what makes you think they can balance a game mode where all the classes are together fighting each other and sharing boons? 

 

 

[Riba.3271]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Gliding, being able to glide in your territory adds one more reason to want to control an area. To some that adds additional strategy to what you want to take. Now does this factor into a majority of players thoughts on capping objectives, definitely no. Does it factor into some havoc gameplay, yes. Removing it continues to just nerf defenders as well, so would prefer that doesn't not get changed. If you need to take out a flyer as it was said above. Bring a pocket ranged CC player along to aid in the fight and enjoy the potential for a free kill. 

Tbf if we are being factually gliding in combat only affects in combat meaning you need enemies.

So removing gliding will actually incentivise more active WvW as attackers are a must for anything to happen. Cap a few more empty towers. Ok! Have 3 days without open tags because very few want to gamble on the fact that they're not only fighting gliders? Not ok. While defensive options are great, this is not the type of defending option that makes defending more frequent. If you get so outplayed that you can't survive without gliding, just accept your death and run back. Having action happening in WvW when you log in should be main priority whetever it is your team attacking or the enemy one.

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Cele is in a position to have a place at the table currently but doesn't replace spots where power or condi builds make more sense.

That is indeed the case for group play but cele is obviously problematic for roaming since recent buffs where they added concentration and expertise to it. Half/Full cele builds were already borderline viable before patch, and now they got added 42% boon and condi duration for free. Obviously this breaks roaming. I am not saying cele is great for group fights outside maybe for chrono that can utilize boon and condi durations while not benefitting from minstrel's healing power. Minstrel is the problematic stat for blobs.

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

Hence will also agree, forget the stacking, we need reasons to win the week and we want people to defend and we need to give them options to be able to do so.

Fair point, this is amongst changes I have been pushing for years where they return defensive options. Basically nerfing shield gens, buffing siege vs siege damage and wall/gate hp in return for increased upgrade times and reduced passive stats. So options to defend or buy time. Of course even then if you run out of supply, you will lose the keep unless you muster numbers (which is fair because attackers are people too!)

One issue also for boring defenders is that no fight group goes near objectives because fights there are terrible there these days due to all the added defensive benefits (f/e gliding, watchtowers, tactics, stats, longer stealth) that didn't use to exist. Essentially things you can't avoid by taking your time. What I am trying to say is that upgraded objectives or home borderland get attacked only few times a day, which tends to make defending boring and logging in when there is no guaranteed commander waste of time.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Threather.9354

[Riba.3271]

14 hours ago, Redknot.1042 said:

Superspeed is how melee squads operate in open field. Melee groups are already punished heavily if they make errors so I dislike this idea. 

As old school WvWer, you already know how game used to played out at 45+ scale. You played peel the onion tactic where you tried to score 5-10 kills by hitting enemy blobs side. If you wanted to end fight fast only options you had was to engage with double veil or portal. But the good side was that fights lasted much longer, it wasn't instantly 20 people dead. So the smarter side won eventually.

Superspeed is a double edged sword because while you rely on superspeed, it also allows ranged groups to spread out much more efficiently ignoring chills and fights end much faster. Once you are losing the fight, it is just over: your tiny miniscule fields can't stop 100% faster moving players. It just makes ranges and radiuses outdated: You just cannot win a losing fight anymore unless enemy commander is absolute coward or idiot.

Do you want fights to be decided first 5 seconds? Or do you want old school WvW back? You decide. Id rather have old school WvW back with more commanders as very few want to tag up for 5 second stealth fights. Sure, you can still train people to survive better or do damage, but it won't make the fights as memorable.

While training around killing enemies with stealth and superspeed can be exciting at times, it is kind of same every time. There is very little room for other strategies with this low-radius superspeed style

 

Also you should give up on the notion of wanting pure melee choochoo squads to be viable. If you do not want to coordinate your revenants or use mesmers to deal with ranged groups, what are you doing? You want melee, but you also want it to be uncounterable and require no coordination? That is what I do not understand. Does your gaming end at class selection? Use your ranged tools and try to control at least one side, it is really not that hard.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Threather.9354