Melee Vs Ranged

[Mogglethesly.7056]

Ranged damage seems like it's better than melee. It doesn't seem like it's a power vs condi problem, but a problem with uptime in general. 

 

What if melee damage was increased for each missing enemy from the cleave count. I.e a one handed sword has cleave 3, if you are attacking a single target it could do 1.3x base damage. 2 targets 1.15, 3 targets 1.0. 

 

To add some context, when benchmarks are done it is against a target that does not move. As ranged weapons maintain uptime, melee does not, and therefore deserves to have higher output to compensate for some missed uptime. 

 

This is just an idea that came to me and I wanted to throw it to the void somewhere.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Mogglethesly.7056

[Diak Atoli.2085]

This... is a solution looking for a problem. Melee in general already outputs more damage and DPS than ranged. There's no reason to increase it further.

[Mogglethesly.7056]

I see. I do not look at enough data to understand the problems directly, I don't know why I thought it was a good idea for this game, but perhaps it's a concept for another time. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Diak Atoli.2085 said:

This... is a solution looking for a problem. Melee in general already outputs more damage and DPS than ranged. There's no reason to increase it further.

Correction: Melee used to output more DPS than ranged.  That was before EoD released with a bunch of high-DPS ranged specs.

Not that I agree with the OP's ridiculous solution.  They just need to balance by taking into account the inherent advantage of ranged DPS.  There's a reason it shouldn't be competing with melee DPS on golem benchmarks and that should be obvious to the devs.  But then these are the same people who think firebrand and mechanist are balanced designs.  So, I guess anything goes with these guys?

[Katary.7096]

So if the problem is that ranged builds are better than melee builds a simple solution would be to increase melee damage output or decrease ranged damage output. What is the benefit of some special rule for dealing damage involving the number of cleaved targets?

[Diak Atoli.2085]

14 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Correction: Melee used to output more DPS than ranged.  That was before EoD released with a bunch of high-DPS ranged specs.

Not that I agree with the OP's ridiculous solution.  They just need to balance by taking into account the inherent advantage of ranged DPS.  There's a reason it shouldn't be competing with melee DPS on golem benchmarks and that should be obvious to the devs.  But then these are the same people who think firebrand and mechanist are balanced designs.  So, I guess anything goes with these guys?

I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention. Last time I checked, benchmark builds still favored melee weapons.

Other than Mechanist, what are the high-DPS ranged specs from EoD?

[AliamRationem.5172]

58 minutes ago, Diak Atoli.2085 said:

I guess I haven't been paying close enough attention. Last time I checked, benchmark builds still favored melee weapons.

Other than Mechanist, what are the high-DPS ranged specs from EoD?

Virtuoso and specter.  Harbinger is another ranged spec, although I'm not sure where they stand as I usually see them as quickness/dps hybrid.  Snowcrows doesn't have their new benchmark list complete yet, but specter is currently the top DPS.

Edited July 12, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[Mogglethesly.7056]

Yeah, I'm going about this all wrong. It was an idea with almost no thought behind it. I am glad people responded. aside from feeling sick about looking like a moron, I have learned that I need to assess the problem before attempting a solution. 

 

The biggest issues with my idea are that it is a solution that has no problem really, it doesn't solve any issue currently present. It also overcomplicates a system that doesn't need more arbitrary calculations. 

 

It isn't my place to suggest solutions. I like the discussion though.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Mogglethesly.7056
Unnecessary Repetition

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its a simple problem, in real battles enemies move alot, though often not by much.

 

This means a small amount of range like 600 can easily keep hitting the boss 24/7 while melee have to constantly run or leap to it. This affects your rotations; a melee character gets their rotation interrupted alot more than a ranged character by the boss moving just a little bit, because one skill happens to miss.

 

Take Mai Trin in the Fractal for example.

 

You can really notice this on Catalyst, who has an easier time maintaining a rotation in Fire/Air than Water/Earth, which means when you need to swap for suvivability you also have to work harder to hit the boss.

 

I don't know of any solution, but melee should definitely deal about 30% more damage, and all ranged damage should drop the further away you are (not just on Ranger LB and Mesmer GS).

 

Safety should come at a cost, and risk should come at a benefit, always.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Einlanzer.1627]

8 minutes ago, Mogglethesly.7056 said:

Yeah, I'm going about this all wrong. It was an idea with almost no thought behind it. I am glad people responded. aside from feeling sick about looking like a moron, I have learned that I need to assess the problem before attempting a solution. 

 

The biggest issues with my idea are that it is a solution that has no problem really, it doesn't solve any issue currently present. It also overcomplicates a system that doesn't need more arbitrary calculations. 

 

It isn't my place to suggest solutions. I like the discussion though.

 

You're being too hard on yourself. It's perfectly acceptable to introduce a topic you are having thoughts about and bounce it off of other people. Even if it's regarded as a weak idea, it's a learning opportunity both for you and for other poeple, which is a good thing. Kudos to you for acknowledging that it might not be the right direction instead of digging in and fighting. Takes a respectable lack of ego to do that. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Einlanzer.1627

[disco.9302]

21 hours ago, Diak Atoli.2085 said:

 Melee in general already outputs more damage and DPS than ranged.

This is only if you consider the raw damage in a vacuum. Yes, on a stationary golem, mele can probably get a higher output than ranged. However if you consider that for many instanced bosses players are required to move and perform mechanics or avoid hazards then ranged starts to be more efficient. Mele in general falls behind in realistic scenarios.

Note, even if you look at current top end benchmarks, there is nothing to suggest using ranged weapons is going to have a worse DPS output.

[Artemis.8034]

As of right now things are in flux,the new benchmarks are not even all up yet. For the most part you will always do better dps closer than further, all the boons are up front. 😂

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

1 hour ago, disco.9302 said:

Mele in general falls behind in realistic scenarios.

As far as PvE scene goes, whole group stacking at the face of the boss is due to the fact that for the most of game history, melee was able to output considerable higher DPS, so all of group strats were developped around keeping relevant boss in melee range.  If that was not the case alot of strikes/raids would have seen the main stack positioned further away.

[disco.9302]

5 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

As far as PvE scene goes, whole group stacking at the face of the boss is due to the fact that for the most of game history, melee was able to output considerable higher DPS, so all of group strats were developped around keeping relevant boss in melee range.  If that was not the case alot of strikes/raids would have seen the main stack positioned further away.

Two parts to address there. 

1 - stacking close together had mostly been for the purpose of effectively sharing boons.

2 - although historically mele has been known to outperform, the current standing does not support the theory that ranged is weaker.

 

Furthermore raid and strike strats revolve more around beating/negating mechanics rather than bringing the biggest DPS.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

13 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

stacking close together had mostly been for the purpose of effectively sharing boons.

yes, but you can share those boons while stacked whenever in the boss arena, not necesarily at boss face (or butt in some encounters)

14 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

although historically mele has been known to outperform, the current standing does not support the theory that ranged is weaker.

and I have specifically said "for the most of game history"..... as far as I keep track, the post EOD situation of purely ranged specs performing close enough or better on actual bosses than their melee equivalent is something somewhat new for this game.

Oh and there were a couple moments when some raiding guild were doing "all ranged" runs (for memes and giggles) and in a number of those runs, the stack was not in fact in it's usual boss-hugging position, but further away. and it was during some of those runs for example, that some guilds managed to find surprise safespots for some of raid bosses... safespots AN then consequently have patched out 😉

Anyway due to prevalence of melee superiority in the past, grand most of squads either of us in here is likely to participate will be placed right up there on the boss, which was my point.

15 minutes ago, disco.9302 said:

Furthermore raid and strike strats revolve more around beating/negating mechanics rather than bringing the biggest DPS

and alot of mechanics on a substantial amount of those missions is being circumvented by bringing biggest DPS.

And there is a number of encounters where the mechanic revolves around having enough squad DPS (so called "DPS check")

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Artemis.8034 said:

As of right now things are in flux,the new benchmarks are not even all up yet. For the most part you will always do better dps closer than further, all the boons are up front. 😂

Yes, but if forced to move range has an obvious advantage.  That's why it shouldn't be topping DPS benchmarks because in actual gameplay it will significantly outperform melee DPS.

[Infinity.2876]

On 7/11/2022 at 3:33 PM, Mogglethesly.7056 said:

Ranged damage seems like it's better than melee. 

Damage no.

Survivability yes.

 

Except when your a ranger

[disco.9302]

2 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

yes, but you can share those boons while stacked whenever in the boss arena, not necesarily at boss face (or butt in some encounters)

and I have specifically said "for the most of game history"..... as far as I keep track, the post EOD situation of purely ranged specs performing close enough or better on actual bosses than their melee equivalent is something somewhat new for this game.

Oh and there were a couple moments when some raiding guild were doing "all ranged" runs (for memes and giggles) and in a number of those runs, the stack was not in fact in it's usual boss-hugging position, but further away. and it was during some of those runs for example, that some guilds managed to find surprise safespots for some of raid bosses... safespots AN then consequently have patched out 😉

Anyway due to prevalence of melee superiority in the past, grand most of squads either of us in here is likely to participate will be placed right up there on the boss, which was my point.

and alot of mechanics on a substantial amount of those missions is being circumvented by bringing biggest DPS.

And there is a number of encounters where the mechanic revolves around having enough squad DPS (so called "DPS check")

ok, I don't want to seem rude, but you are not grasping the message I'm trying to convey.

1. I have referred to the current state of the game, that means that what has been historic data is not being addressed.
2. I have no idea why you are going on about stacking because this has less to do with mele dps than the actual positioning of the group relative to where the boss will aggro. 
3. You're saying that a lot of the mechanics can be circumvented by having high dps and that damage requirements need to be considered. Yes, that is correct - inputting more damage can help skip phases and many encounters have a dps check but this has never required people to bring only the top dps. The dps checks don't mean that you can only use the 2-3 top benching builds, there are 20-30 builds of all varieties which can easily provide sufficient damage to pass those checks. In addition, "bringing more dps" is a  strategy, but you cannot beat every single mechanic by throwing more dps at it.

I will explain the main point that you are missing (with an example)and leave it at that.

Mele dps has to be in mele range to deliver its damage. In some encounters, the boss moves into a hostile zone and if a player were to walk there, they would not survive. In such circumstances, which are not that uncommon, ranged continues to be able to deliver damage and mele cannot.

Take for example the Junkyard strike. The boss moves about and often stands in big aoe pools which deplete health faster than it can be healed by anything in the game. If you play your mele DH (other builds available), you have to pause your rotation and and move. On the other hand a harb, scourge, virtuoso, mech, spectre and any other strong ranged dps can kite away and continue to damage the boss and progress the encounter.  When it comes to golem benchmarks, the mele and ranged have comparable numbers. When it comes to real encounters where mechanics cannot be ignored, ranged pulls ahead currently and this is an issue. Mele should be doing more dps because it is higher risk, therefore should be higher reward.

Edited July 12, 2022 by disco.9302