Bring player not class HealScourge

[Avalanche.7359]

Hello there fellow players. When EoD was launching Anet stuff said they want to focus more to bring players to groups not certain classes.

Since heal scourges provide a lot of barriers and revives they are good for beginner groups and could help a lot with new metas but noone wants them because they don't provide buffs and there are better classes to take. I don't want to make them overpowered but I would like to propose some changes to bring it to the level to become viable option as a healer to fractals, strikes, Eod metas etc.

 

Proposed changes to traits and buffs:

 

Sandstorm shroud trait: Add Alacricity 13s (maybe remove dmg from trait completely)- to become alacricity provider option for fractal, strike, meta groups and remove damage from trait to not be used by dps classes and hybrids

 

Banshe's vail trait: Add 22,5s of Fury, Might 6, (optional Vigor) to Locust Swarm(Warhorn 5) - to make it similar to ranger warhorn 5 but only for heal variant build with blood magic and to not affect dps builds which use warhorn

 

Sand Savant trait: Make Greater shade to be combo finisher: Blast - necros don't have many combo fields and only one blast on staff which is mark and can be triggered only with enemy.

(We could blast light field on Well of blood in aoe fields without enemies being present to trigger marks)  or maybe make all shades blast finishers?

 

Well of power: Increase stability to 5 stacks, time to 10s - it would be similar to Stand your ground skill as healscourge has no means to provide stability, currently only one stack for 1s. Could be tied to Sand savant trait to not be abused by dps or in wvw.

 

Optional: Ghastly breach: Increase Might to 6 stacks, as it is elite skill and 2 stacks are very low 

 

I understand elite and good groups will probably pick Mechanist or Firebrand but Healscouge would be good pick for beginner and learning groups and could greatly help people to learn and with not organized final EoD meta with its ress capabilities.

Edited July 13, 2022 by BabyBoOm.6258

[Dadnir.5038]

You sure do know how to make OP suggestions!

[Obtena.7952]

Weird take ... OP want to bring the player instead of the HealScourge .. but the changes proposed massively buff it to the point of being overpowered. I don't think  the OP understands the the 'bring the player, not the build' philosophy in the first place. 

I mean, as for the particular suggestions...no way. The changes being proposed aren't even inline with reasonable existing durations and effects. It's nerf-bait. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Bring buffed healscourge, not healscourge.

[Wintermute.5408]

I really don't want those devs touching necro any more. I'm perfectly happy with my classes safe and hidden in balance limbo, thank you very much.

[Nimon.7840]

While I do agree, to the "bring player, not profession" philosophy, these proposed changes would be absolutely over the top.

 

You have to keep in mind, that plague doctor scourge exists. Your proposed changes might invalidate any other healer than plague doc scourge.

Boons + barrier + around 25k DPS + Rezz abilities is not what you want to see. That would definetly be the most overpowered build in GW2 history.

 

In order to give scourge boons, you gotta get rid of some of it's hybridness imo.

[Avalanche.7359]

1 hour ago, Nimon.7840 said:

While I do agree, to the "bring player, not profession" philosophy, these proposed changes would be absolutely over the top.

 

You have to keep in mind, that plague doctor scourge exists. Your proposed changes might invalidate any other healer than plague doc scourge.

Boons + barrier + around 25k DPS + Rezz abilities is not what you want to see. That would definetly be the most overpowered build in GW2 history.

 

In order to give scourge boons, you gotta get rid of some of it's hybridness imo.

 

So right now its useless and any fractal/ strike/ raid group would not take it and adding alac, fury, 6 might and 10s of stab on 25s cd would make it op? how? agaist what? Hfb can give you full prestacked buff, superior heals + quickness and at least 5 sources of stab and has also remote ress and other stuff like aegis, burn etc. Mechanist has stronger barrier, more buffs,  endless kit heals. Druid also has buffs, endless heals too and ress capabilities. Most of these things you wouldnt even notice and for good groups there would still be better options to pick, mass ress is not important to them. That is why there are hybrid builds because noone wants healscourge.     

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, BabyBoOm.6258 said:

 

So right now its useless and any fractal/ strike/ raid group would not take it and adding alac, fury, 6 might and 10s of stab on 25s cd would make it op? how? agaist what? Hfb can give you full prestacked buff, superior heals + quickness and at least 5 sources of stab and has also remote ress and other stuff like aegis, burn etc. Mechanist has stronger barrier, more buffs,  endless kit heals. Druid also has buffs, endless heals too and ress capabilities. Most of these things you wouldnt even notice and for good groups there would still be better options to pick, mass ress is not important to them. That is why there are hybrid builds because noone wants healscourge.     

Same reason in the past why Tempest support wasn't brought over support guardian Firebrand druid and other specs which offered more. Might just need to nerf the ones which are really strong to balance out all specs or buff  the under performers such as warr and nec.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, BabyBoOm.6258 said:

 

So right now its useless and any fractal/ strike/ raid group would not take it and adding alac, fury, 6 might and 10s of stab on 25s cd would make it op? how? agaist what? Hfb can give you full prestacked buff, superior heals + quickness and at least 5 sources of stab and has also remote ress and other stuff like aegis, burn etc. Mechanist has stronger barrier, more buffs,  endless kit heals. Druid also has buffs, endless heals too and ress capabilities. Most of these things you wouldnt even notice and for good groups there would still be better options to pick, mass ress is not important to them. That is why there are hybrid builds because noone wants healscourge.     

Hold on ... not being optimal for content is NOT a reason to change it and make it OP'ed. You suiggest it heals, bring alacrity AND fury, might, Stab? You don't see why that's absolutely ridiculous?

Edited July 14, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Vinny.7260]

Maaaybe... Just maybe... We keep Scourge where it is.

It's a good resbot/barrier bot. It's the (former) Chronomancer between ressing (Scrapper) and barrier (Mechanist).

[Kaladel.1670]

2 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

Maaaybe... Just maybe... We keep Scourge where it is.

Well, with a better Sand Savant, then. That trait is a scam, currently.

[Vinny.7260]

11 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

Well, with a better Sand Savant, then. That trait is a scam, currently.

Definitely true... Shame on them.

[Xerxez.7361]

The problem comes back to Transfusion and its ungodly ability to save people from their own mistakes. You give Scourge the boons and suddly they will become a safety net staple.

[Kaladel.1670]

21 minutes ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

The problem comes back to Transfusion and its ungodly ability to save people from their own mistakes. You give Scourge the boons and suddly they will become a safety net staple.

You point the crux of the issue already: saving people from their own mistakes. What if they don't make any? If they are good, what's the use of a Scourge? Is the (Support) Scourge only allowed to be a training run spec?

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Xerxez.7361 said:

The problem comes back to Transfusion and its ungodly ability to save people from their own mistakes. You give Scourge the boons and suddly they will become a safety net staple.

I'm pretty sure the crux of the issue is different, otherwise tempest wouldn't have gotten alacrity.

The most likely reason is coverage as scourge still provide the support related to shades to up to 10 players in PvE. If a profession covering up to 10 players provided as much convenience than a profession that can only cover up to 5 players, then it would be "unfair".

Edit: Also, boon corruption is considered as support through boon hate even if this support isn't valued in PvE.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

You point the crux of the issue already: saving people from their own mistakes. What if they don't make any? If they are good, what's the use of a Scourge? Is the (Support) Scourge only allowed to be a training run spec?

Here is the thing ... it's the same if you bring a healer and don't really need it. That means ... swap to a different build. I mean, if we on'y measure things by their 'use' ... then there isn't a problem with playing a spec that isn't 'useful' because there are only 3 roles and 5 team spots for buffing.  Each class has core and 3 especs ... there are only 3 roles. We are expecting more. This idea that specs need 'use' to be played has to die in a fire because at some point, the choices exceed the need for 'being useful'. 

If you are only going to regard 'useful' things as playable in a team ... that's a player perception issue, not a game mechanics one. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Kaladel.1670]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Here is the thing ... it's the same if you bring a healer and don't really need it.

Most other healers aren't only just healing. A Druid or a Mechanist, for instance, will contribute to raise the overall DPS. If no one needs raising, you might as well have taken another DPS instead of a Support Scourge. You can't say the same of other healers.

Quote

If you are only going to regard 'useful' things as playable in a team ... that's a player perception issue, not a game mechanics one.

I thought we were playing a MMO? Isn't the goal of this kind of game to do stuff with other players? Shouldn't the options geared toward that kind of thing be good to encourage collaboration?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Kaladel.1670

[Obtena.7952]

20 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

Most other healers aren't only just healing. A Druid or a Mechanist, for instance, will contribute to raise the overall DPS. If no one needs raising, you might as well have taken another DPS instead of a Support Scourge. You can't say the same of other healers.

Sure but what I said still stands ... if your team doesn't want what you build does, you play something else ... or play with a different team that doesn't care what you play. What other builds do is not an indicator of what HealScrouge should be doing ... or vice versa. If you want the flexibility other healer give you ... nothing stops you from playing those. It simply depends on what your criteria is for choosing what you play. I mean, are you implying Anet should just make Scourge more like Druid or Mechanist? Do you HONESTLY think that's going to improve it's ranking in teams with respect to other healers?

Quote

I thought we were playing a MMO? Isn't the goal of this kind of game to do stuff with other players? Shouldn't the option geared toward that kind of thing be good to encourage collaboration?

Sure ... and nothing stops a player from doing that except their own perception and choices they make in the game. I mean, if HealScourge isn't a good fit for a team, don't play it in a team that it doesn't fit with. I can assure you, there are more teams out there that benefit from this build than don't ... they just don't want to admit it. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

6 minutes ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

Most other healers aren't only just healing. A Druid or a Mechanist, for instance, will contribute to raise the overall DPS. If no one needs raising, you might as well have taken another DPS instead of a Support Scourge. You can't say the same of other healers.

Yet scourge can also do many things that neither druid nor mechanist can do. Should the scourge be stripped from part of it's abilities in order to be more like druid or mechanist?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I don't think heal/support scourge need valuable boons or boon spam, but  Abrasive grit + sand savant are both bad traits  and definetly need some love.

The might on Abrasive grit was okai and didn't need its nerf.
Sand Savant doesn't match up with Desert Empowerement; the recharge increase should end at least in pve, and as drawback may be change Shroud or some shades skills to deal less "DPS" if that's the fear in competitive modes.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Kaladel.1670]

55 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Yet scourge can also do many things that neither druid nor mechanist can do. Should the scourge be stripped from part of it's abilities in order to be more like druid or mechanist?

Please enlighten me. What does the Support Scourge have that is so great and other supports don't. Beside Epidemic, which isn't a support skill and works as well/better on any other necro spec or build. 10 man barrier? What else?

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, Kaladel.1670 said:

Please enlighten me. What does the Support Scourge have that is so great and other supports don't. Beside Epidemic, which isn't a support skill and works as well/better on any other necro spec or build. 10 man barrier? What else?

10 man barrier

10 man condition conversion

5 man condition conversion

Boon corruption

Portal (sand swell)

High and varied condition output (translating into high breakbar damage, relatively high condi damage, high number of conditions onto the target to maximize efficiency of some traits... etc.)

 

[Kaladel.1670]

13 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

10 man barrier

10 man condition conversion

5 man condition conversion

Boon corruption

Portal (sand swell)

High and varied condition output (translating into high breakbar damage, relatively high condi damage, high number of conditions onto the target to maximize efficiency of some traits... etc.)

 

The condi conversion is great and no HAM build runs purity of purpose (to my knowledge), so that's an unique thing (beside the number of target), good point on this. Sand Swell is too. Situational, but that's something. The boon corrupt/condi output isn't really a Scourge thing, more a necro thing in general, but I said "that other supports don't have", so that's fair.

I'm still not convinced that Scourge doesn't need a little bit more oomph* in the support department, but you made good points about it's current strengths.

*no, not the german band.

[Obtena.7952]

See, this is the problem with that thinking ... because if Scourge DIDN'T have unique elements, even if you want to question their effectiveness, it wouldn't compete AT ALL with other healers. It would just be the same, except worse. The only reason to choose it would be for flavour. 

If anything, these unique elements should be emphasized if we want HealScourge played more. The last thing we need to HealScourge to be made into something else. For SOME reason, Anet didn't understand that when they significantly nerfed barriers in a previous patch. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Valisha.8650]

Honestly, the shades applying perma protection would be the only needed change.