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The LFG system is bad


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4 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Or have an auto-group , which is the same results .

Less typing and less getting in groups we dont belong + no seeing the sellers .

One magic button

Want one magic button? 
 

1: open notepad or word. 
2: type casual run. Everyone welcome. 
3: save said note and make shortcut to desktop.

4: open document when you want to do instances and copy the sentence.

5: paste sentence in whichever lfg you want to run all day and get your one magic button. 
 

step 1,2 and 3 is a one time thing. Long live the lazy! 

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On 7/13/2022 at 8:38 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The second biggest problem, which is lack of a watch/notification system. This is one of the biggest roadblocks to players getting into raids, because raid listings (especially training), are so rare that players have to sit with the LFG tool open for up to several hours waiting for a listing. Instead, they should be able to click an eye icon (like you do with daily achivements, etc.) to watch the category, and be notified of when a listing is available with a message in their chat window and a link to open the LFG tool automatically.

 

This ūüĎć

 

On 7/13/2022 at 8:38 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

And the final, and potentially most severe problem, is no way to specify your role. This makes it difficult for players to join modern group content which has very strict role requirements, and becomes a hodgepodge of joining the squad (taking up a slot, and potentially causing it to delist if its full), stating your role, working out what other players roles are via chat, and trying to get all your builds sorted out which is okay for content like Fractals, but for content like Strike Missions can sometimes take even longer than the encounters themselves.

 

The lack of ability to state your role, and have this role displayed somewhere like next to your squad icon, hurts uptake. A system where players can just join in would benefit everyone. Furthermore, the additional of a role system would pave the way for automatic matchmaking in PvE in the future.

 

 

And this ūüĎć

Edited by Dave.6819
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Gw2 is to complicated that auto-group could work for harder group content. You need have healer, but you need also buffs, most important quickness and alacrity, but your healer can provide only quickness for example HFB, or Herald or alacrity as hMech or hTempest or Druid. So you need option in auto group for what kind of healer are you and then what kind of boon support are you. But some encounters need tanks too, like some raid wings but others don't, you don't have tank for example in wing 2. So auto grouping would need consider that somehow. But there is more, some raids need specific roles, you need hand-kiter for Deimos, you won't kill it if you don't have that specific role, or you need specific dps that can do pylons in wing 7, or people who do greens on Dhuum... It is impossible that auto groups would consider all that.  

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Lfg is a basic system in almost every game in the mmorpg genre. Nobody is saying use it for the hardest content. Heck I think I just joined one random gw2 dungeon group and it was mostly a randomly group of players with elite specs all doing their own things randomly while everyone used their self heal. 1 person was 450, another had mastery lvl 2, everyone was getting lost and randomly hitting things(?), but there didn't seem to be death enrage timers like wow so sure while no alacrity might not be optimal.

 

How much worse could it be than just 5 people running around blindly, vs when off is instant, most people learn the content by doing the content in the same way a person told to sear a steak 100 times will naturally go from burnt to delicious while someone who never cooked one will worry. Once people start getting easier experience, even new players tend to pick up dungeon paths within a couple hours pretty quickly just like anyone who learns how to sear steak often is able to repeat it again. , in wow general heroic dungeons were made to do a daily bag easily because, it offered a pretty easy way to mingle and have fun. 

 

I know gw2 wants to avoid the holy trinity and having 1 headless chicken vs 5 self healing headless chickens is uh.... Something new but... 

I think almost anyone who's used the tools like these, typically tend to change their mind quickly after trying one. Like punch cards computers vs the first handheld calculator, people will always be happy to use what they grew up with, but if you tried the system and Tried to go back, it just seems like a waste bringing 87 folders of punch cards to do a calculation in 30 minutes when you can type 746374 x 19 / 4 on your calculator or what have you anytime you want. Work smart and efficient with limited spare time right? Not waste it for some arbitrary reason of. "We're always done it this (slow but not necessarily enjoyable way) , and it works, so why should we have cars, trains, or horses or wheels when walking by foot over 1000 miles over a airplane ticket works?  

Nobody sane ever recommends a completely random dungeon finder for the most challenging content. At least. Not without a basic competence test. Sure people can lie, but by forcing them to be competent enough they're passing dps checks in healing gear and tanking tests in dps gear at least implies that if the set is done right enough right your 28k dps alacrity beats the 2k dps core rogue with no meter to know what's going wrong, it's probably (?) A sign they could do their job fine(?) At least for the easy content. 

It'll always be a general system for putting people together to have fun. Wow did both, it had easy automatic lfg for easy dungeons, and then grouped selective content for +300% stat mythic +18 bolster fortifying etc. Any Serious content that requires coordination. like literally having 40 part mob pulling maps to tank will always be a organized effort that needs communication with strategic plans for mob percents to add up precisely up to 100.0% to 100.2% but no more than 103% to pass a limited timer content in Wow, but the general que is more meant to designed as a fun social way to gear up basic gear (like untradable rare/exotic tiers), while having fun. It also makes it much easier to casually invite people into a game as well.

 

While subtle, ive seen people often recruit 3-5 people into a game by asking if they wanted to dungeon with them in wow or over watch, or play in a team on LoL. Gw2 imo really is a good game but lacks on the advertising or inviting /playing with friends department. Adding a easy que where you could add a friend and que together could really help improve social dynamics and maybe a daily reward. People could always split to use manually or que but 99/100. Most people  prefer to que with it and theres usually a slight +10-25% xp/bag reward for selecting any que vs specific. Which helps keeps times down by rewarding and incentive ing players to be able to que for anything.

Obviously most mmorpgs have a lfg only Tele or at least a manual only summoning stone to group with. So any automated lfg system benefits from a portal, otherwise people get lost. 

We grouped into one of those gw2 group systems and literally had it open to anyone only to spend it watching 2 people get lost for 20-40 minutes because we had to manually all scan the entire world map to find the dungeons... And the f2p players had no mounts or waypoints and another dude was like literally stuck in like Elona and had no idea how to find it on the map..  

Its just archaic not to have the system imo and really its something so small. With a lfg tool you can invite a casual friend easily and go 'hey, want to play a dungeon with me? Quick, eady 5-20 minutes, in and out, it'll be a blastl", vs .. The strsnge silent mass that runs towards objects to whack and doesn't talk. They hop, you play. You have fun.

Gw2 meanwhile like uh... It has it's own take.. But.. Its "Hey. Want to travel to a random unmarked location you may or may not have access too, while 2-3 people get lost, taking 20-30 minutes to arrive with no directions and being kicked only for a 5-10 minute wordless smacking fest?  The prime new player experience is watching people get completely lost while wordlessly running into walls right!?" 

Yeah. I bet new players getting lost for 40 minutes while a random group they don't know is yelling at them for being eaten by wolves 20 times in the shiverpeak mountains is just EXACTLY the kind of prime experience adults with maybe 2 hrs spare time on 8-10 pm breaks want to experience with their life. XD before their limited spare time runs out for responsibilities and they have to tab out. I don't mind challenging content. I did +18 mythic+ bfa wow, I just would rather fight the content then scheduling or finding lost players imo haha. 

love gw2 but.. If you want people to Olay group content with a smaller by number population. Its wouldn't be that bad to take basic steps to make it more accessible imo. 

Edited by Sunchaser.9854
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3 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Lfg is a basic system in almost every game in the mmorpg genre. Nobody is saying use it for the hardest content. Heck I think I just joined one and it was mostly a randomly organized group of players with elite specs all doing their own things randomly while everyone used their self heal, while I remember in wow general heroic dungeons were made to do a daily bag easily because, it offered a pretty easy way to mingle and have fun. 

 

I know gw2 wants to avoid the holy trinity and having 1 headless chicken vs 5 self healing headless chickens is uh. Something new but. I think almost anyone who's used the tool usually will go like what osrs did to the auto types and go "why should anyone ask for a automated trading system when manually typing the same sentence by hand 4 hours in a row or getting banned for a obvious auto typet not work?"

 

Nobody sane ever recommends a completely random dungeon finder without like a simple pve test system to use roles (provide alacrity for xD of thr time to earn the alacrity select qualification, pass a pve dps check and dodge check for the dps, survive x long to qualify for tank, etc'

 

It'll always be a general system for putting people together to have fun. Serious content that requires coordination. 40 part mob pulling maps with strategic plans for mob percents to add up precisely up to 100.0% to 100.2% but no more than 103% to pass a limited timer content with infinitely scaling +254% stat content like mythic+ usually is always hand sifted and has a owner check with a raider io system showing the highest passed dungeon  level each player has done. But. This would help the casual community aspect of pressing a button while you quested and had a mini adventure.

 

We grouped into one and we literally had it open to anyone but 2 people get lost for 20 minutes while I was on the mini map and had to circle four surrounding continents around the unmarked map to find which unmarked region led to the dungeon. The fact mmorpgs live and die off friends often inviting people to dungeons or wow having semi mythic raid challenging content in 5 man content vs 20-40 man helps people fight the content, not 20-40 job scheduling availability sorry gtg raid over shenanigans. 

 

Its just archaic not to have the system imo and really its something so small. With a lfg tool you can invite a casual friend easily and go 'hey, want to play a dungeon with me in wow or game in over watch or lol", they hop, you play. You have fun. Gw2 is meanwhile like uh. "Hey. Want to travel to a random unmarked location you may or may not have access too, while taking 20-30 minutes to arrive with no directions and being kicked in a auto join queue with this archaic system that's insistent on no teleportation to abandoned content?'

 

Yeah. I bet new players getting lost for 40 minutes whole a random group they don't know is yelling at them for being eaten by wolves 20 times in the shiverpeak mountains and keeps respawning and dying 3 continents away is just EXACTLY the kind of prime experience adults with maybe 2 hrs spare 8-10 pm want to experience with their life. I love gw2 and I don't mind a fair challenge but.. I want to enjoy the content. Not watch people manually get lost or kicked for spending 30 minutes of a 5 minute headless chicken fest being.. Killed by wolves lost on a waypoint while mute. 

Well said!

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11 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

I wouldn’t mind adding symbols to lfg options, however this is not needed. It is what you want. Which is totally fine. We all want different things for this game.
 

Anet makes their roadmap based on data they have. Since most players do open world content, it’s logical they want to focus on that now. Maybe they will focus on lfg tool later who knows. But saying they don’t understand what the game needs is a stretch. It’s not useful for you, but that doesn’t mean it’s not useful for others 

Nothing they're doing is gonna change needing to use Discord as a LFG tool instead of the in-game one.

It's still too much of a chore to find and make a group, which continues to make me not bother.

Edited by Doggie.3184
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I don't understand how a "magic" 1 button system can avoid things like putting 'raiders' together with 'toxic casuals' (who are also raiders, because they are doing a raid, but whatever). If you only push 1 button and then get dumped into a group how does the game know who is a 'raider' and who is a 'toxic casual' and avoid putting them into the same group?

In every game I've played with an automated queue system it's only for completely random groups where you would literally accept anyone in the game because that's all it can do. Maybe it can tell based on the class you've picked or the weapons you've equipped or something that you're probably a healer or a tank or a damage dealer, but that's all. It can't tell if you know the dungeon or raid you're going into, or if you've got a currently popular meta build or if you're expecting to skip the story parts or want to complete it, so all of that gets ignored, you get grouped with the next 4-9 people who queued up and either accept what you get or leave, wait out the penalty for leaving early and try again.

(Also the current system already has a way to separate experienced raiders from new ones, that's why it's got separate 'experienced' and 'training' tabs.)

Also I keep seeing people talking about spamming messages or even specifying spamming chat, so I just want to make sure: does everyone saying we need a group finder understand we're talking about the existing LFG tool? Because there's no spamming involved. You write your message once then wait for people to join (exactly like you would if you were in a queue). The only reason you'd need to type anything more is if you want to change the message.

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53 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I don't understand how a "magic" 1 button system can avoid things like putting 'raiders' together with 'toxic casuals' (who are also raiders, because they are doing a raid, but whatever). If you only push 1 button and then get dumped into a group how does the game know who is a 'raider' and who is a 'toxic casual' and avoid putting them into the same group?

In every game I've played with an automated queue system it's only for completely random groups where you would literally accept anyone in the game because that's all it can do. Maybe it can tell based on the class you've picked or the weapons you've equipped or something that you're probably a healer or a tank or a damage dealer, but that's all. It can't tell if you know the dungeon or raid you're going into, or if you've got a currently popular meta build or if you're expecting to skip the story parts or want to complete it, so all of that gets ignored, you get grouped with the next 4-9 people who queued up and either accept what you get or leave, wait out the penalty for leaving early and try again.

(Also the current system already has a way to separate experienced raiders from new ones, that's why it's got separate 'experienced' and 'training' tabs.)

Also I keep seeing people talking about spamming messages or even specifying spamming chat, so I just want to make sure: does everyone saying we need a group finder understand we're talking about the existing LFG tool? Because there's no spamming involved. You write your message once then wait for people to join (exactly like you would if you were in a queue). The only reason you'd need to type anything more is if you want to change the message.

It won't avoid it cause that's kinda the point, is to mix people together randomly, but quickly. It can't filter by skill level and group preference, and that's fine. GW2's existing culture of filtering by those things for pugs is unhealthy for the health of the content community to begin with. The end result of how it works now is you have this small percentage of players who fine tune what they want (and then you hear them complaining on forums/reddit later about unwanted people joining), some people who don't bother to care but still form a group, some who try to form a group and can't find anybody, and then prob like (based on numbers I've heard vaguely in passing)... the majority of the rest of the playerbase who isn't doing it at all. Yet people want to see it get new stuff added. How can Anet justify the funding for it if people don't play it, ya know. And the easiest way to get more people playing it is with an automated option to get them quickly in the door and get a taste for it. I mean, look at what emboldened mode alone reportedly has done for raids... people who didn't want to for whatever reason and then went on to do it more once they got a taste for it. Stuff like that helps.

OTOH, the thing they did recently of separating into training and experienced tabs if anything makes things worse to where people who are inexperienced are even less likely to ever find a group through random pugging, so they are less likely to ever become experienced. Like who in the heck wants to go into end-game PvE with the mentality that it's training, with a bunch of random people and no organization. It's like actively implementing a psychological block. Automated queues can be messy, there's no doubt about it, but one thing they've got going for them is they get people in there and they don't give them preconceived notions about how it's gonna go. You get what you get and maybe one run is a complete disaster that gives you a story to tell, but maybe another is really smooth and it makes you look forward to queuing again. Either way, you didn't have to spend half an hour forming the group. You played the game and enjoyed it while waiting for a queue to pop and then you jumped in.

Edit: But idk, maybe Anet wants end-game PvE to be niche so people aren't popping in and out of open world metas all the time. Maybe there's a real fear that getting people in there to too great an extent too easily screws with open world maps.

Edited by Labjax.2465
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13 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

To add on what mythical.6315 said.

Just because you start it dont mean you have to lead it type in something like -- chill run all welcome --

And you will have the same experience as a auto lfg.

You're missing the point, it might work for you. But there are a lot of players who simply won't create a group first.

Its just their personality & expecting them to conform is just gonna result in less groups. Versus adapting the system to be better for multiple personality types... Sure the end functionality would be very similar, it simply would increase engagement which is the other half of the equation.

Its not a right or wrong, just adapting to better meet the needs of the base. More groups with less anxiety & waiting around would be a good thing for all. 

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17 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Let people put an Alacrity Symbol next to their name for example to make organization less annoying.

No. 

This the problem with OP's suggestion as well, with regards to roles in LFG.

If you allow the player to drop the alacrity symbol next to their name, that renegade with 0 boon duration who wants to get carried (or just doesn't know better) is going to slap on that symbol and waste a lot of people's time. So do we want ANet to program LFG to only allow people who (1) play certain classes, (2) have certain stats (such as concentration) at (3) certain levels with (4) a certain combination of traits to use such a label? What if you tweaked your build to give you a touch less concentration in exchange for something else? What if your build has the main trait you need, but isn't the meta build input into the LFG's recognition? ANet would essentially either just enforce meta builds using LFG, or program some sort of AI to judge what's "good enough" to serve in various roles... which ANet doesn't even seem to fully understand.

Aside from culling and combining the most useless categories for the LFG, I disagree with almost every specific thing OP suggests. People already have problems understanding acronyms, abbreviations, and other sort of shorthand names in the LFG. Doing something like collapsing all the separate dungeon listings into one general dungeon listing would require players to start listing dungeon names and paths, which is not an improvement over the current system. A random dungeon through an automated listing would also be terrible, for anyone farming frequenter or for anyone who wants to avoid stuff like the Aether path or some of the Arah paths. Sure, ANet could implement a checkbox for players to exclude specific paths, but this all is beginning to sound like much more work than it's worth.

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2 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Nothing they're doing is gonna change needing to use Discord as a LFG tool instead of the in-game one.

It's still too much of a chore to find and make a group, which continues to make me not bother.

Why do you need discord as a lfg tool? I've Never had to do that. If I don’t find a group I make a lfg which normally fills up fast. It’s not that hard to type a few sentences and then wait for it to fill up

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1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

No. 

This the problem with OP's suggestion as well, with regards to roles in LFG.

If you allow the player to drop the alacrity symbol next to their name, that renegade with 0 boon duration who wants to get carried (or just doesn't know better) is going to slap on that symbol and waste a lot of people's time. So do we want ANet to program LFG to only allow people who (1) play certain classes, (2) have certain stats (such as concentration) at (3) certain levels with (4) a certain combination of traits to use such a label? What if you tweaked your build to give you a touch less concentration in exchange for something else? What if your build has the main trait you need, but isn't the meta build input into the LFG's recognition? ANet would essentially either just enforce meta builds using LFG, or program some sort of AI to judge what's "good enough" to serve in various roles... which ANet doesn't even seem to fully understand.

Aside from culling and combining the most useless categories for the LFG, I disagree with almost every specific thing OP suggests. People already have problems understanding acronyms, abbreviations, and other sort of shorthand names in the LFG. Doing something like collapsing all the separate dungeon listings into one general dungeon listing would require players to start listing dungeon names and paths, which is not an improvement over the current system. A random dungeon through an automated listing would also be terrible, for anyone farming frequenter or for anyone who wants to avoid stuff like the Aether path or some of the Arah paths. Sure, ANet could implement a checkbox for players to exclude specific paths, but this all is beginning to sound like much more work than it's worth.

To be fair that is exactly how automated grouping works in a lot of other games: it either chooses for you based on 1 factor or lets the player self-identify and assumes they're a) being honest and b) know what they're doing. If that causes problems for you the advice from other players is not to expect anything more than the bare minimum from group finder groups and if you have any standards at all stick to playing with your guild.

To take a specific example in Elder Scrolls Online players can be any of the 3 traditional roles - damage dealer, tank or healer. There's a lot of factors which go into making a build - the weapons you choose, the skills you put on your bar (unlike GW2 weapon skills aren't automatically assigned, you can even use a weapon but none of it's related skills) the characters stats, the additional stats and bonus effects on your equipment and it's upgrades, food, poisons and probably other things I'm forgetting.

Any class can fill any role, most roles don't need a 100% dedicated build and it's entirely possible to make a build which does aspects of 2 different roles, or even all 3. It is of course also possible to make a horribly mismatched and under-geared character who does nothing very well.

So how does the automated group finder know which role you are? It looks at your weapons, and nothing else. If you have a restoration staff you're a healer, if you have a shield you're a tank, if you have anything else you're a damage dealer. Or players can select a role themselves before joining the queue and there's no restrictions at all on that. If you say you can tank on a squishy mage with double daggers and no taunts the game will take your word for it.

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9 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

If you say you can tank on a squishy mage with double daggers and no taunts the game will take your word for it.

Just having picked up ESO a short time ago on sale, good to know that's how it works. And yes, that also seems to be how it works in most automated group finder systems. In the case of SWTOR, that game is even worse - it allows you to pick a role solely based on your class, and last I saw the LFG didn't even care what weapons or subclass (which totally changes your ability to perform the healing or tanking roles) you are. However, SWTOR's compromise is that a lot of the pug LFG dungeons can now be completed by just a full team of dps players, which hilariously makes that the most optimum comp really.

I recognize that's how the random LFG group fillers work in most other games. I just don't see that as an improvement over what we have now. Sure, more new/willfully ignorant players will get into groups, but the a lot of the underlying content (even in old content like some of the explorable dungeons) is sufficiently punishing of ignorance that I don't think it'll lead to a good experience.

Also none of this will solve LFG's other underlying problem, which is that LFG doesn't port you to the instance from wherever you are.

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20 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Any class can fill any role, most roles don't need a 100% dedicated build and it's entirely possible to make a build which does aspects of 2 different roles, or even all 3. It is of course also possible to make a horribly mismatched and under-geared character who does nothing very well.

So how does the automated group finder know which role you are? It looks at your weapons, and nothing else. If you have a restoration staff you're a healer, if you have a shield you're a tank, if you have anything else you're a damage dealer. Or players can select a role themselves before joining the queue and there's no restrictions at all on that. If you say you can tank on a squishy mage with double daggers and no taunts the game will take your word for it.

Haven't tried the new EoD strikes or  Dungeons , but do they need dedicated specs like tanks,healer,100% boon duration characters to be completed ?

Edited by Woof.8246
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5 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Nothing they're doing is gonna change needing to use Discord as a LFG tool instead of the in-game one.

It's still too much of a chore to find and make a group, which continues to make me not bother.

What's with this weird "discord" repetition? Not once I've used discord to get a group in gw2. I don't even know why you're saying what you've just said tbh. In what way is discord supposed to be a better lfg tool than the ingame one?

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It won't avoid it cause that's kinda the point, is to mix people together randomly, but quickly.

That's not what was repeatedly said before.

Quote

It can't filter by skill level and group preference, and that's fine. GW2's existing culture of filtering by those things for pugs is unhealthy for the health of the content community to begin with.

And this is just saying "people shouldn't have the ability to play with who they want to play, because I don't want them to". Not much unhealthy about it, especially when we have options to set a group description that can easly match the players with similar goals.

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Like who in the heck wants to go into end-game PvE with the mentality that it's training, with a bunch of random people and no organization.

Isn't it fun how you type this sentence in the same post you're trying to push for a completely random auto-mm for that same content? As if that completely random auto-mm would be any more organized than making a group with "everyone welcome". If anything, you can type in things like "learning"/"new to raids" and at the very least have people with similar goals/mentality join. I also fail to see how it's supposed to be bad that there are training runs for end-game content. If people expect to just randomly join that end-game content and then faceroll through it right away without any idea what they're doing then that's not much of the end-game content in the first place. So if there's a problem in what you've described in your post, it's the problem with attitude and unrealistic expectations.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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5 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It won't avoid it cause that's kinda the point, is to mix people together randomly, but quickly. It can't filter by skill level and group preference, and that's fine. GW2's existing culture of filtering by those things for pugs is unhealthy for the health of the content community to begin with. The end result of how it works now is you have this small percentage of players who fine tune what they want (and then you hear them complaining on forums/reddit later about unwanted people joining), some people who don't bother to care but still form a group, some who try to form a group and can't find anybody, and then prob like (based on numbers I've heard vaguely in passing)... the majority of the rest of the playerbase who isn't doing it at all. Yet people want to see it get new stuff added. How can Anet justify the funding for it if people don't play it, ya know. And the easiest way to get more people playing it is with an automated option to get them quickly in the door and get a taste for it. I mean, look at what emboldened mode alone reportedly has done for raids... people who didn't want to for whatever reason and then went on to do it more once they got a taste for it. Stuff like that helps.

OTOH, the thing they did recently of separating into training and experienced tabs if anything makes things worse to where people who are inexperienced are even less likely to ever find a group through random pugging, so they are less likely to ever become experienced. Like who in the heck wants to go into end-game PvE with the mentality that it's training, with a bunch of random people and no organization. It's like actively implementing a psychological block. Automated queues can be messy, there's no doubt about it, but one thing they've got going for them is they get people in there and they don't give them preconceived notions about how it's gonna go. You get what you get and maybe one run is a complete disaster that gives you a story to tell, but maybe another is really smooth and it makes you look forward to queuing again. Either way, you didn't have to spend half an hour forming the group. You played the game and enjoyed it while waiting for a queue to pop and then you jumped in.

Edit: But idk, maybe Anet wants end-game PvE to be niche so people aren't popping in and out of open world metas all the time. Maybe there's a real fear that getting people in there to too great an extent too easily screws with open world maps.

Who wants to go into endgame content knowing it's training?  Everyone that's interested in endgame content.  Because at some point, every person that runs the content was in a training group, including the groups that get "World's First".  They may prefer a more static group approach later, but initially, everyone that's running new content is in a training group.

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1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Just having picked up ESO a short time ago on sale, good to know that's how it works.

The really interesting part is that the actual game mechanics and meta-game are far more complicated and varied than the overt trinity system makes it seem. Some groups don't use tanks or healers, or use hybrid builds that can fill those roles and also contribute to damage, which is interesting for organised groups but adds another layer of complication for group finder groups because you never know if you're going to be put with people who expect a real tank or healer or expect another damage dealer, or a hybrid.

I was going to go into that side of it in my post as well, but firstly it's a complicated subject (there's long topics on their forum about it) and not relevant here because in GW2 we would still have the option of using the existing LFG tool to find groups with more specific requirements.
 

1 hour ago, Woof.8246 said:

Haven't tried the new EoD strikes or  Dungeons , but do they need dedicated specs like tanks,healer,100% boon duration characters to be completed ?

I haven't tried the new strike either, but from what I know of other instanced content there often are dedicated roles, but the problem is they're not consistent across different game modes or even different instances within the same mode. For an extreme example there's a role - hand kiter - which has dedicated builds but is used for just 1 raid boss and no where else.

Other things depend on the rest of the group. For example many groups will want 100% uptime on boons, especially quickness and alacrity, but it's unlikely there will be just 1 player who can provide those (and even if there is it won't be their whole role) so it's probably not going to be the deciding factor in whether you get into a group or not.

A group finder with buttons for different roles would need a lot of buttons, with different ones being locked or unlocked depending on what you're queuing up for. Even then it's likely to end up out of date as the meta-game shifts (as has happened with ESO where 2/3 roles are ignored for certain content) and will either need to be changed regularly or will become useless.

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7 hours ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Lfg is a basic system in almost every game in the mmorpg genre. Nobody is saying use it for the hardest content. Heck I think I just joined one random gw2 dungeon group and it was mostly a randomly group of players with elite specs all doing their own things randomly while everyone used their self heal. 1 person was 450, another had mastery lvl 2, everyone was getting lost and randomly hitting things(?), but there didn't seem to be death enrage timers like wow so sure while no alacrity might not be optimal.

 

How much worse could it be than just 5 people running around blindly, vs when off is instant, most people learn the content by doing the content in the same way a person told to sear a steak 100 times will naturally go from burnt to delicious while someone who never cooked one will worry. Once people start getting easier experience, even new players tend to pick up dungeon paths within a couple hours pretty quickly just like anyone who learns how to sear steak often is able to repeat it again. , in wow general heroic dungeons were made to do a daily bag easily because, it offered a pretty easy way to mingle and have fun. 

 

I know gw2 wants to avoid the holy trinity and having 1 headless chicken vs 5 self healing headless chickens is uh.... Something new but... 

I think almost anyone who's used the tools like these, typically tend to change their mind quickly after trying one. Like punch cards computers vs the first handheld calculator, people will always be happy to use what they grew up with, but if you tried the system and Tried to go back, it just seems like a waste bringing 87 folders of punch cards to do a calculation in 30 minutes when you can type 746374 x 19 / 4 on your calculator or what have you anytime you want. Work smart and efficient with limited spare time right? Not waste it for some arbitrary reason of. "We're always done it this (slow but not necessarily enjoyable way) , and it works, so why should we have cars, trains, or horses or wheels when walking by foot over 1000 miles over a airplane ticket works?  

Nobody sane ever recommends a completely random dungeon finder for the most challenging content. At least. Not without a basic competence test. Sure people can lie, but by forcing them to be competent enough they're passing dps checks in healing gear and tanking tests in dps gear at least implies that if the set is done right enough right your 28k dps alacrity beats the 2k dps core rogue with no meter to know what's going wrong, it's probably (?) A sign they could do their job fine(?) At least for the easy content. 

It'll always be a general system for putting people together to have fun. Wow did both, it had easy automatic lfg for easy dungeons, and then grouped selective content for +300% stat mythic +18 bolster fortifying etc. Any Serious content that requires coordination. like literally having 40 part mob pulling maps to tank will always be a organized effort that needs communication with strategic plans for mob percents to add up precisely up to 100.0% to 100.2% but no more than 103% to pass a limited timer content in Wow, but the general que is more meant to designed as a fun social way to gear up basic gear (like untradable rare/exotic tiers), while having fun. It also makes it much easier to casually invite people into a game as well.

 

While subtle, ive seen people often recruit 3-5 people into a game by asking if they wanted to dungeon with them in wow or over watch, or play in a team on LoL. Gw2 imo really is a good game but lacks on the advertising or inviting /playing with friends department. Adding a easy que where you could add a friend and que together could really help improve social dynamics and maybe a daily reward. People could always split to use manually or que but 99/100. Most people  prefer to que with it and theres usually a slight +10-25% xp/bag reward for selecting any que vs specific. Which helps keeps times down by rewarding and incentive ing players to be able to que for anything.

Obviously most mmorpgs have a lfg only Tele or at least a manual only summoning stone to group with. So any automated lfg system benefits from a portal, otherwise people get lost. 

We grouped into one of those gw2 group systems and literally had it open to anyone only to spend it watching 2 people get lost for 20-40 minutes because we had to manually all scan the entire world map to find the dungeons... And the f2p players had no mounts or waypoints and another dude was like literally stuck in like Elona and had no idea how to find it on the map..  

Its just archaic not to have the system imo and really its something so small. With a lfg tool you can invite a casual friend easily and go 'hey, want to play a dungeon with me? Quick, eady 5-20 minutes, in and out, it'll be a blastl", vs .. The strsnge silent mass that runs towards objects to whack and doesn't talk. They hop, you play. You have fun.

Gw2 meanwhile like uh... It has it's own take.. But.. Its "Hey. Want to travel to a random unmarked location you may or may not have access too, while 2-3 people get lost, taking 20-30 minutes to arrive with no directions and being kicked only for a 5-10 minute wordless smacking fest?  The prime new player experience is watching people get completely lost while wordlessly running into walls right!?" 

Yeah. I bet new players getting lost for 40 minutes while a random group they don't know is yelling at them for being eaten by wolves 20 times in the shiverpeak mountains is just EXACTLY the kind of prime experience adults with maybe 2 hrs spare time on 8-10 pm breaks want to experience with their life. XD before their limited spare time runs out for responsibilities and they have to tab out. I don't mind challenging content. I did +18 mythic+ bfa wow, I just would rather fight the content then scheduling or finding lost players imo haha. 

love gw2 but.. If you want people to Olay group content with a smaller by number population. Its wouldn't be that bad to take basic steps to make it more accessible imo. 

Small exception you get an email that point you to each dungeon enterance when you are the level for it starting at 30.

So how can you not know were the dungeons are unless you dont read what the game is telling you and that is not the games fault.

2 hours ago, Woof.8246 said:

Haven't tried the new EoD strikes or  Dungeons , but do they need dedicated specs like tanks,healer,100% boon duration characters to be completed ?

Normal Eod strikes anything goes since there is no time limit.

Edited by Linken.6345
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9 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

Why do you need discord as a lfg tool? I've Never had to do that. If I don’t find a group I make a lfg which normally fills up fast. It’s not that hard to type a few sentences and then wait for it to fill up

Try it out, you'll quickly see why people prefer it. It's day and night compared to our ingame lfg, lots of reasons why ppl prefer it.

I'll give you one simple example. I'm watchin some movie and i see a notification on my phone for "t4 cms daily". And thats it, i login into a game and go for it. Or while playin in game you see an ingame overlay notification "w1-w4 FC". There u go, if u were looking or wanting to do that - there it is. No need to open lfg tool and stare at it and hopefully not miss something. Notifying people when theres somethin u've been lookin for is quite a big thing.

Edited by Dave.6819
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10 minutes ago, Dave.6819 said:

Try it out, you'll quickly see why people prefer it. It's day and night compared to our ingame lfg, lots of reasons why ppl prefer it.

I'll give you one simple example. I'm watchin some movie and i see a notification on my phone for "t4 cms daily". And thats it, i login into a game and go for it. Or while playin in game you see an ingame overlay notification "w1-w4 FC". There u go, if u were looking or wanting to do that - there it is. No need to open lfg tool and stare at it. 

Then that doesn't have a lot to do with changing lfg system, that way you can claim everyone should use their phones instead of any other ingame lfg system, because they can get a message and log into the game.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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27 minutes ago, Dave.6819 said:

Try it out, you'll quickly see why people prefer it. It's day and night compared to our ingame lfg, lots of reasons why ppl prefer it.

I'll give you one simple example. I'm watchin some movie and i see a notification on my phone for "t4 cms daily". And thats it, i login into a game and go for it. Or while playin in game you see an ingame overlay notification "w1-w4 FC". There u go, if u were looking or wanting to do that - there it is. No need to open lfg tool and stare at it and hopefully not miss something. Notifying people when theres somethin u've been lookin for is quite a big thing.

While I can see some ppl may prefer this, it doesn’t really add anything to this topic. First part is irrelevant. Second part is also irrelevant since you can make your own lfg. Why wait for one to pop up when you can create one and do what you want while waiting for it to fill? It works the same way. May even be faster as ppl tend to join quickly. I don’t see the point of discord lfg. Only for convenience if you’re not in the game. 

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7 hours ago, robertthebard.8150 said:

Who wants to go into endgame content knowing it's training?  Everyone that's interested in endgame content.  Because at some point, every person that runs the content was in a training group, including the groups that get "World's First".  They may prefer a more static group approach later, but initially, everyone that's running new content is in a training group.

That's not what I said. I said who wants to go in thinking of it as training with random people and no organization. Read the words please before you try to gotcha me.

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20 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

you dont have to play "specific" dungeons + Strike

Kind of curious as to how this will help a newer player keep the story intact. Imagine reaching the point of story for Caudecus' Manor only to suddenly be tossed in Honor of the Waves and have to face opponents double your level.....with no idea why you are there or how it relates to what was going on before you hit that "magic button." And, with an autodungeon grouper there will be even fewer groups forming without using the magic button. 

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