The LFG system is bad

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

We sat in lfg forever this morning looking for fills in our raid cm runs, maybe about 45 min before people started popping in. It def needs something.

[robertthebard.8150]

57 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

That's not what I said. I said who wants to go in thinking of it as training with random people and no organization. Read the words please before you try to gotcha me.

Why wouldn't they try to organize their group?  Whether they can or not would be another question, but don't we have guilds that, even now, do training runs?  Are they not going in knowing that that's what they're doing?  Are they not trying to organize the group as part of the training?  It's not a "gotcha", it's a "hey, this happens", since people are doing training runs even now, right?  They go in knowing they're not going to have an optimal group, but they're trying to train others to run the content.

[Linken.6345]

26 minutes ago, Dark Red Killian.3946 said:

We sat in lfg forever this morning looking for fills in our raid cm runs, maybe about 45 min before people started popping in. It def needs something.

My static noticed that too hence why we went from monday thursday to monday tuesday for clearing.

[Woof.8246]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Kind of curious as to how this will help a newer player keep the story intact. Imagine reaching the point of story for Caudecus' Manor only to suddenly be tossed in Honor of the Waves and have to face opponents double your level.....with no idea why you are there or how it relates to what was going on before you hit that "magic button." And, with an autodungeon grouper there will be even fewer groups forming without using the magic button. 

I don't really know about the poster , but as far i know Dungeon Story Mode is not mandatory , so people are not missing  much by doing story and then the exploration path . The best scenario would be like EoD personal  story > Strike , just like Final Fantasy 14 is doing atm, but alas .

About facing mobs double your lvl , we could use a simple +50 (not 500) to all stats . I have been experimenting with that with under-lvl characters in WvW (some extra WvW utilities spells that can be used from lvl 1 that get increase CD making worthless at 80 , wouldn't hurt . Edit: thus instantly making WvW into a PvP hybrid  , while in PvE people can unlock "racial" skills between the boring lvls of 10-25).

Or if we use the PvP format , then you can choose 1 of the 3 options , which could have a low lvl dungeon at a rotation , while the rest are lvl-locked and forcing the rest of the population to to do that low lvl  instance and help that noobie

Edited July 16, 2022 by Woof.8246

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

23 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

First of all... I'm curious how you could know this is a fact? Secondly, if someone doesn't know the lfg even exists, then all it means is that they didn't read what the game "told" them while they were leveling up.

I know this because I talk to people, IRL, on Discord and in game chat. You know what they say to me a lot? "I didn't know that this game had a LFG. Thanks."

Yep. A lot of people ignore, or forget, that little text box that shows up when you level up. Maybe because they're focused on the rewards?

[voltaicbore.8012]

4 hours ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

I know this because I talk to people, IRL, on Discord and in game chat. You know what they say to me a lot? "I didn't know that this game had a LFG. Thanks."

Yep. A lot of people ignore, or forget, that little text box that shows up when you level up. Maybe because they're focused on the rewards?

At a certain point I think we have to (as a community) stop catering to such levels of gaming ignorance.

I don't think it's objectively defensible to say LFG is hard to find. If someone had no idea LFG exists, it's on them. I see zero need for the game to adjust to meet that level of non-engagement with the UI and mmo genre as a whole.

Edited July 16, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Labjax.2465]

10 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

At a certain point I think we have to (as a community) stop catering to such levels of gaming ignorance.

I don't think it's objectively defensible to say LFG is hard to find. If someone had no idea LFG exists, it's on them. I see zero need for the game to adjust to meet that level of non-engagement with the UI and mmo genre as a whole.

No video game, and certainly no community, survives on bootstraps ideology. It's untenable balderdash and always has been.

People don't know what to do and need assistance or information sometimes, and arbitrarily deciding what is too ignorant is antithetical to learning. And yes, I say arbitrarily. There is nothing remotely objective about your opinion on how hard LFG is to find. You can go test it in a lab with different sample groups and then maybe you can say you have some objective data on it.

[Carnifex.3275]

7 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

While I can see some ppl may prefer this, it doesn’t really add anything to this topic. First part is irrelevant. Second part is also irrelevant since you can make your own lfg. Why wait for one to pop up when you can create one and do what you want while waiting for it to fill? It works the same way. May even be faster as ppl tend to join quickly. I don’t see the point of discord lfg. Only for convenience if you’re not in the game. 

You realize not every1 has a commander tag and are willing to lead a 50/50 squad with organized subs? Some people prefer to just join a squad instead of leading it. You basically are saying that lfg is fine and people should always create their own groups buy commander tags and call it a day. Seriously? LFG system is very basic and 70% of the posts you don't even see there cuz people are in discord. Instead of going into detail what discord provides, ill just leave this video here. I won't go into specifics why discord is good for now, there are plenty of reasons and i just gave you only one reason (notifications, alert system).

I dont see how is that not relevant, it's a topic about lfg system and how basic it is in gw2. Discord is a good solution for now until they make some good changes to in game lfg. You can dismiss it as much as you want but there's a reason why so many people stopped using LFG. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Dave.6819

[Freya.9075]

4 minutes ago, Dave.6819 said:

You realize not every1 has a commander tag and are willing to lead a 50/50 squad with organized subs? Some people prefer to just join a squad instead of leading it. You basically are saying that lfg is fine and people should always create their own groups buy commander tags and call it a day. Seriously? LFG system is very basic and 70% of the posts you don't even see there cuz people are in discord. Instead of going into detail what discord provides, ill just leave this video here. I won't go into specifics why discord is good for now, there are plenty of reasons and i just gave you only one reason (notifications, alert system).

I dont see how is that not relevant, it's a topic about lfg system and how basic it is in gw2. Discord is a good solution for now until they make some good changes to in game lfg. You can dismiss it as much as you want but there's a reason why so many people stopped using LFG. 

While having a commander tag is useful, it is not needed when doing content. Except maybe WvW blobs where ppl usually use discord anyways for communication. 
 

im not saying lfg couldn’t use some changes and updates. But comparing it to discord is what I was replying to. You can use discord as much as you want. As can others. But most players don’t seem to have an issue when using lfg that is already in the game. Only thing that takes a bit time to fill is raids. Which is understandable since its one of the least played content. 

[Labjax.2465]

So I did a strike today and it reinforced some things for me. Namely that:

1) At least some of the strikes are relatively easy with a potluck pug group (of the kind you'd expect to find using an automated LFG tool).

2) The worst part for these kind of strikes is forming the group itself.

I wanted a particular one done from IBS for runic armor, which is apparently an easier one, Legendary Claw/Voice. Since I'm not experienced at strikes, I listed under training with an "all welcome" thing in there.

I did not keep exact track of time, but I did try a little and I'd estimate it took something like 20-30 minutes to get 10 people. Granted, this was during a slower pop time, but still, that's a lot of time I was staring at the screen and wondering if I was going to need to call it off on account of not finding enough people.

I also had an incident mixed in there where someone merged a partial group into mine (I believe accidentally, thinking they were merging into a raid LFG and doing the wrong one). This caused some confusion, which I had to help identify and clear up. Not malicious, but still a waste of multiple people's time.

Once we actually got a full group, we cleared the strike easily, with little mention of roles (someone asked about quickness and one or two people vaguely mentioned a role they were practicing, but that was about it). I did not set any role expectations myself. Someone then suggested we do a couple other easy ones and people were up for it, so we did Shiverpeaks and Fraenir too.

Overall, a pretty solid grouping experience, nice people, and with a potluck pug too! In theory, should have made me want to do more strikes after this. Here's the thing though... I have no desire to do that sitting around for 20-30 minutes again. Sure, it might be a bit faster if I did it during prime time, but it's still time I'm doing nothing. And if I'm going to deal with that much waiting, I'd rather join a guild and organize with them... why bother with LFG.

So... there it is, one of my experiences with this tool, for what it's worth.

[Danikat.8537]

4 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

At a certain point I think we have to (as a community) stop catering to such levels of gaming ignorance.

I don't think it's objectively defensible to say LFG is hard to find. If someone had no idea LFG exists, it's on them. I see zero need for the game to adjust to meet that level of non-engagement with the UI and mmo genre as a whole.

 

3 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

No video game, and certainly no community, survives on bootstraps ideology. It's untenable balderdash and always has been.

People don't know what to do and need assistance or information sometimes, and arbitrarily deciding what is too ignorant is antithetical to learning. And yes, I say arbitrarily. There is nothing remotely objective about your opinion on how hard LFG is to find. You can go test it in a lab with different sample groups and then maybe you can say you have some objective data on it.

As well as the introduction to the LFG tool (and the fact that they can find it at any time by looking through the menu buttons) if you try to enter any dungeon, raid, strike or Fractals alone you get a pop-up message letting you know that it's intended for groups and asking if you want to open the LFG tool to find one.

While I agree that games cannot expect players to figure everything out themselves I also think there comes a point where you have to accept that if someone hasn't read the messages we know they've been shown explaining something then another message, which is likely to be virtually identical, is also going to go unread and therefore going to be similarly ineffective.

[Labjax.2465]

22 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

 

As well as the introduction to the LFG tool (and the fact that they can find it at any time by looking through the menu buttons) if you try to enter any dungeon, raid, strike or Fractals alone you get a pop-up message letting you know that it's intended for groups and asking if you want to open the LFG tool to find one.

While I agree that games cannot expect players to figure everything out themselves I also think there comes a point where you have to accept that if someone hasn't read the messages we know they've been shown explaining something then another message, which is likely to be virtually identical, is also going to go unread and therefore going to be similarly ineffective.

If something is ineffective, it can often be improved. Talking about people like they are hopelessly braindead is just refusing to take responsibility for design, which is a conscious and deliberate process, but because of the natural familiarity with it that develops in those who build it, frequently winds up with all kinds of gaps in presentation that are never understood until ignorant people are in front of the technology. The same applies to other things too, like writing a novel, for example. A reader can shatter your notions of what kind of story you wrote. That some people sometimes persevere in spite of confusion and learn the design doesn't mean the design is fine and people who don't get it are inept. A designer needs more clarity than vague testaments about people's intelligence by those who are familiar with the technology.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:38 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- All the unused categories such as Story Journal (players use the associated map category instead), Festivals (for Halloween and the like players use Central Tyria-Squads), Achivements (players use the associated map/dungeon categories instead), Guild Recruitment (players recruit primarily through map chat), and Mentoring (never seen it used whatsoever). There's others, but these are the most obvious ones that are basically just there to take up space and make finding the category you want more time consuming than it should be.

I guess you are playing on NA servers, because in EU they are all used.
- The people I have met in Achievements usually tried to get legendary collections done (e. g. Aurora) and needed help with story-achievements.
- Festivals are used during Halloween for the labyrinth runs. You can check the Central Tyria list, but the Festivals List usually provides additional squads. The LFG is also used for Wintersday instances and others.
- Guild Recruitment is actively used here. Whenever I check this tab, there are 1-5 guilds. Sure at some times of the day it is empty, as most other tabs.
- Mentoring is sometimes used. It requires some extra courage to open a group in that channel and offer your knowledge & experience to new players. 
- Story Journal is a blind-spot. I have rarely seen players there, but some new players sometimes try it. 
 

On 7/13/2022 at 7:38 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

And the final, and potentially most severe problem, is no way to specify your role. This makes it difficult for players to join modern group content which has very strict role requirements, and becomes a hodgepodge of joining the squad (taking up a slot, and potentially causing it to delist if its full), stating your role, working out what other players roles are via chat, and trying to get all your builds sorted out which is okay for content like Fractals, but for content like Strike Missions can sometimes take even longer than the encounters themselves.

This request looks amazing, until you start to think about using it. Here are a few of the questions that instantly came to my mind:
Can I pick any role, like a title, even if my build is anything but that role?
Do I only get the role tag, if I use a specific build from an ingame build-pool?
Who decides what a healer is?
How do you intend to prevent trolls?
Would there be an 'uncategorized' role for all players who do not care?
Would there be an option for groups/squads to filter LFG for certain roles?
Would there ben an option for players to filter LFG only for groups, their role fits in?
Would this also apply for Open World, sPvP and WvW?
Would there be an option for commanders to list players by role?
How about a special chat command to talk to the specific roles only? e. g. /healers "there is a burst coming when he stops channeleing, prepare to revive in 5 ..."
...
ANet is currently reworking the game and its classes so everyone can run instanced group content easily. At least that is what it looks like to me. Once that job is done, assuming they continue, the requested role-feature would help forming groups. But as you can see from my questions, there are a lot of things to keep in mind. I am not an enthusiast when it comes to group content, this is just a small list of things I can imagine. Others may come up with a longer list. If ANet wants to add this feature, they should have answers to the most important questions. 

-
The request for reworking the LFG is not new, but every thread is welcome. They do not change stuff people do not talk about. You have brought up a few very good points. 

[Luthan.5236]

Well ... it definitely could be improved. On the other hand: At least there is such a system. That's more than other MMORPGs usually have. They already tweaked the categories - should group up the dungeons next into story, explorable (experienced) and explorable (training) ... or something like that. Instead of one for each dungeon.

That you have to wait 45 mins for people filling up the raid challenge mote group ... that is not a problem of lfg. More of not enough people playing raids. And I guess there some raid guilds and grouping in guilds ... might be more useful.

Filling up a low tier fractal group and/or the meta event squads ... usually pretty fast. There it works as intended: Helping the casual player to randomly go into a group.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Zaret.1450]

it could be cool if you could make specific enter slots in the lfg, in raid for example a tipical lfg would be 2hfb 2alacmec and 6 dps if you could make it like, i create a slot with this name, and people select the slot in lfg, like i enter, select a hfb slot and the chat automaticaly sais, xxxx entered as hfb, other thing could be an automatic li check, like you put a lfg and ask for x number li, so people without those li cant enter.

Now the new lfg for trainings in raid was good but not enought, let me explain, the lfg has a limit on how many times you can change it, it is a bother to change map each time you need to change the lfg because someone had to leave, pair it with the current problems and it is too much of a bother.

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

That some people sometimes persevere in spite of confusion and learn the design doesn't mean the design is fine and people who don't get it are inept.

You are correct. I simply believe in this case that the "I didn't know GW2 has an LFG" crowd is not a result of poor design, but rather a result of those players' unwillingness to actually engage with the content/UI in question. You haven't specified anything that makes me believe otherwise. As for your story about easy strikes taking too long to fill, as @Luthan.5236suggests that might have more to do with the underlying content rather than LFG.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

17 minutes ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

You are correct. I simply believe in this case that the "I didn't know GW2 has an LFG" crowd is not a result of poor design, but rather a result of those players' unwillingness to actually engage with the content/UI in question. You haven't specified anything that makes me believe otherwise. As for your story about easy strikes taking too long to fill, as @Luthan.5236suggests that might have more to do with the underlying content rather than LFG.

Well , i have seen 3 accounts in the reddit , saying "thank you i didn't know that the command -sell , removes the sellers from the LFG" , but at the 28 patch they claimed that thy have played since launch and thecompany  is the  worst .

Go figures , that people claim here or reddit and try to pass it as a fact 😛

(between you and me , i heard that Teapot will quit GW2)

Edited July 16, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[corwin.3495]

I agree that the whole LFG system needs a rework and that a lot of subtabs can be removed. I saw a couple of weeks ago a lvl80 player with some masteries, writing in map chat, asking how to find ppl for strikes, not even knowing about LFG. 
If they really want to put gw2 on steam, their "roadmap" is really bad and I can see this game getting a lot of negative reviews because of the Core Tyria and UI problems. 

[Linken.6345]

8 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

So I did a strike today and it reinforced some things for me. Namely that:

1) At least some of the strikes are relatively easy with a potluck pug group (of the kind you'd expect to find using an automated LFG tool).

2) The worst part for these kind of strikes is forming the group itself.

I wanted a particular one done from IBS for runic armor, which is apparently an easier one, Legendary Claw/Voice. Since I'm not experienced at strikes, I listed under training with an "all welcome" thing in there.

I did not keep exact track of time, but I did try a little and I'd estimate it took something like 20-30 minutes to get 10 people. Granted, this was during a slower pop time, but still, that's a lot of time I was staring at the screen and wondering if I was going to need to call it off on account of not finding enough people.

I also had an incident mixed in there where someone merged a partial group into mine (I believe accidentally, thinking they were merging into a raid LFG and doing the wrong one). This caused some confusion, which I had to help identify and clear up. Not malicious, but still a waste of multiple people's time.

Once we actually got a full group, we cleared the strike easily, with little mention of roles (someone asked about quickness and one or two people vaguely mentioned a role they were practicing, but that was about it). I did not set any role expectations myself. Someone then suggested we do a couple other easy ones and people were up for it, so we did Shiverpeaks and Fraenir too.

Overall, a pretty solid grouping experience, nice people, and with a potluck pug too! In theory, should have made me want to do more strikes after this. Here's the thing though... I have no desire to do that sitting around for 20-30 minutes again. Sure, it might be a bit faster if I did it during prime time, but it's still time I'm doing nothing. And if I'm going to deal with that much waiting, I'd rather join a guild and organize with them... why bother with LFG.

So... there it is, one of my experiences with this tool, for what it's worth.

And while you were waiting those 20-30 minutes how many of IBS easy 3 filled in the none training tab?

Since people usualy dont train the basicly training golem strike missions anymore.

You could have just put it in the experienced tab said new but teach me senpai.

[Hashberry.4510]

Well its no surprise that those who like the status quo don’t see a need to fix anything, though I can’t fathom why they are so vehemently against robust grouping system. Like I said ealier, something really stinks here.

 

Anet evidently wants to reach again for a full game rather than settle for the niche they have been surviving in. I can’t see them getting anywhere with out a huge improvement in group finding. 

[Sobx.1758]

19 hours ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

I know this because I talk to people, IRL, on Discord and in game chat. You know what they say to me a lot? "I didn't know that this game had a LFG. Thanks."

Then maybe they should start reading the tips that are popping up in the middle of their screen as they're leveling up in a new game instead of skipping everything and then wondering why they don't know something that's pretty clearly explained?

14 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

No video game, and certainly no community, survives on bootstraps ideology. It's untenable balderdash and always has been.

What's an "untenable balderdash" is the attempt to blame the game for the user to blindly click through the tutorials/explanations without reading them just so then they can blame the game for not explaining what it already did explain. Ridiculous. 🤦‍♂️

14 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

People don't know what to do and need assistance or information sometimes, and arbitrarily deciding what is too ignorant is antithetical to learning. And yes, I say arbitrarily. There is nothing remotely objective about your opinion on how hard LFG is to find. You can go test it in a lab with different sample groups and then maybe you can say you have some objective data on it.

You could claim it's an attempt to arbitrarily decide that, if it wasn't for the fact the game directs you with a pop-up window soon before you can enter the first group-oriented dungeon. Not much room for speculation or subjectivity left here. Companies can put an information on the cup that the coffee you just bought is hot, but if you refuse to read that information, it's basically on you and noone/nothing else (and hey! Maybe tiny letters on the cup are hard to see, sure. But the pop up window on your screen just isn't).

Edited July 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Peregrine Falcon.5496]

19 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Then maybe they should start reading the tips that are popping up in the middle of their screen as they're leveling up in a new game instead of skipping everything and then wondering why they don't know something that's pretty clearly explained?

I mostly agree with you on this.

However, game developers (and anyone who manages a venue of any sort IRL) should have learned by now that you cannot force people to learn. Anyone who's ever been at a grocery store and seen someone be surprised when they fail to push open a door, which has the word "PULL" written on it in large letters, should understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, seeing something like that is funny, as long as no one gets hurt. But you know what? Those people also spend money. So helping them to open the door, instead of making fun of them and driving them away, just makes financial sense.

Plus, even smart people sometimes fail to notice something or just sometimes forget. I've taken a couple of year-long breaks from GW2 and each time I have to relearn how to play the game. Is it such a stretch to imagine a person taking a break and forgetting that the LFG exists? And, if they aren't leveling up anymore characters, then nothing in the game will remind them of its existence.

[Ashantara.8731]

I don't know. If you condensed the LFG into less category, it would result in certain categories being flooded with entries, making it harder to find what you are looking for.

[Sobx.1758]

25 minutes ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said:

I mostly agree with you on this.

However, game developers (and anyone who manages a venue of any sort IRL) should have learned by now that you cannot force people to learn.

Of course you can't, for me that's part of the point and also the reason for why what @Labjax.2465 writes above is mostly untrue (or rather: only true to some degree) as a widely generalized claim he keeps going for. No amount of comparing this short explanation popping out on the ingame screen to different novel interpretations will somehow make the currenlty available "look, here's the lfg to find other people to play with!" explanation bad.

Quote

Anyone who's ever been at a grocery store and seen someone be surprised when they fail to push open a door, which has the word "PULL" written on it in large letters, should understand exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes, seeing something like that is funny, as long as no one gets hurt. But you know what? Those people also spend money. So helping them to open the door, instead of making fun of them and driving them away, just makes financial sense.

Pointing out facts (like "it is specifically explained in the game" or "it's not exactly the game's fault that some people refuse to read the tutorial just so they can claim nothing was explained to them") isn't really making fun of them.

Quote

Plus, even smart people sometimes fail to notice something or just sometimes forget. I've taken a couple of year-long breaks from GW2 and each time I have to relearn how to play the game. Is it such a stretch to imagine a person taking a break and forgetting that the LFG exists? And, if they aren't leveling up anymore characters, then nothing in the game will remind them of its existence.

If someone leaves the game and need to re-learn it, they can make a new character and play through it again, re-learning what they need to know. Or maybe... just ask in the ingame chat? Plenty of solutions without claiming someone forgetting what to do, because they left the game for few months or years causes the tutorial to be bad/noncoherent/nonexistant.

Duh, I've played some single-player games and if I wanted to play them now, I wouldn't be sure about the keybindings or mechanics. Does that mean the keybindings/mechanics//tutorial/ingame explanations are bad or maybe that I need to check the keybindings and possibly replay the tutorial? Trying to make a point out of "maybe I've quit and forgot!" seems a little... dodgy to me tbh. Not only that, but as @Danikat.8537 already mentioned above:

11 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

(...) if you try to enter any dungeon, raid, strike or Fractals alone you get a pop-up message letting you know that it's intended for groups and asking if you want to open the LFG tool to find one.

So if you attempt to join that instanced group content, you are being reminded about the lfg tool.

 

 

But maybe putting all the generalizations/hypotheticals aside (as well as that initial "It's not mentioned anywhere in game." claim). If you think this is a real issue and you understand that you can't make people learn/read (I agree, which is why I think this is not the lack of ingame information problem), then what solution exactly would you want to see here?

Edited July 16, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Freya.9075]

Oh my. It’s almost like they moved a topic about lfg to the lfg section. The audacity 👀 they clearly have something to hide when they place it in the intended spot for it.