Vindicator Major trait usage

[Artificer.3468]

Has anyone found any success using any of these traits besides song of arboreum? (In any gamemode)

 

Because they're all fighting for almost the exact same niche, I'm wondering if some of them  could stand to be changed to something more interesting, like an interaction with energy for example or a weapon skill augmentation 

[Virdo.1540]

Reavers curse was used in the Heal vindicator build that existed before the last patch, other than that theres no real other option

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

I would prefer they trash Reaver's Curse and Angsiyan's Trust tbh. Or at least Angsiyan's Trust. I think it's ridiculous they devoted an entire line of traits to endurance generation, especially with how bad Angisyan's Trust is and also especially since the spec could use an additional damage modifier that isn't tied to dodging.

Edited July 16, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Angesombre.4630]

Personal opinion, but I think these traits should be changed:
"Amnesty of Shing Jea" I find it relatively accessory and it is used only for the alliance
"Redemptor's Sermon" sorry if people use it but I find it too long and very relatively useful.
"Balance in Discord" is a fixed trait that should be incorporated directly into the skill and useful only for the alliance so relatively too.
"Reaver's Curse" can be useful on groups at a certain level but completely useless on a single target.
"Angsiyan's Trust" I don't even know if people use it

So 2 stamina reload skills that are very relative so I think changing them would be good, and 2 other skills that are only used for the alliance. If we compare with renegade the skill can be used with everything except 2 one which is for bow and the other one for legend but which has a defensive use.

We could have on certain trait an increase of the buffs for the blue part for example and for the red for example to have the choice of a sharing of the buffs side red of the alliance. This could have given quickness directly to the vindicator.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

7 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I would prefer they trash Reaver's Curse and Angsiyan's Trust tbh. Or at least Angsiyan's Trust. I think it's ridiculous they devoted an entire line of traits to endurance generation, especially with how bad Angisyan's Trust is and also especially since the spec could use an additional damage modifier that isn't tied to dodging.

Agreed completely. 

[Buran.3796]

   Vindicator really doesn't have a traitline. The first mandatory trait is Leviathan Strength since the two alternatives were nerfed so doesn't make sense using them at any game mode, and the second mandatory trait is Song of Arboreum since delivers a consistent buff which both synergizes with Leviathan Strength and the new dodge mechanics and costs.

   In the last column we used to have choices, since we had different endurance costs and strong buffs, but the nerfs to Saint of zu Heltzer were large enough to make it useless, so now Vassals of the Empire is the norm for every game mode but instanced PvE at which Forerunner of Death would be the meta if weren't by the fact that Vindicator is not suitable to be meta at instanced PvE...

   Is not that rare, tho: Renegade was mostly 222 or 221 when used in PvE and 122 at PvP/roaming, with very little use for the other traits, and the same happened with other professions.

   Having an elite traitline with varied traits usefull for different builds based on role (strike dps, condi dps, support...) is only a reality when your spec is designed to be a versatile swiss knife AND your class is favourite amongts the game designers. But Revenenat isn't anything of that, just accept it.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

56 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   In the last column we used to have choices, since we had different endurance costs and strong buffs, but the nerfs to Saint of zu Heltzer were large enough to make it useless, so now Vassals of the Empire is the norm for every game mode but instanced PvE at which Forerunner of Death would be the meta if weren't by the fact that Vindicator is not suitable to be meta at instanced PvE...

 

Forerunner of Death is best for it across all PvE; It's just too good in Open World not to run it and as you say the obvious pick for instanced content. I think Vassals is only superior in WvW/PvP.

 

56 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

 

  Is not that rare, tho: Renegade was mostly 222 or 221 when used in PvE and 122 at PvP/roaming, with very little use for the other traits, and the same happened with other professions.

   Having an elite traitline with varied traits usefull for different builds based on role (strike dps, condi dps, support...) is only a reality when your spec is designed to be a versatile swiss knife AND your class is favourite amongts the game designers. But Revenenat isn't anything of that, just accept it.

Ren actually has pretty good trait options; I don't agree that it's only 222 or 221 across the board in PvE. 1/3/3 all get solid use on Alacren and Healren variants and can be mix and matched depending on what the group needs with the other traits. Ren's traits aren't all amazing, but they're generally at least "good" and the spec does have options to support 5 different playstyles (power/condi dps, power/condi hybrid support, heal support) which I think is notable. Comparatively, Ren has way more options than Vindicator does. The only really bad trait on Ren is the dumb "breakstun roar" thing

Edited July 16, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Buran.3796]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Forerunner of Death is best for it across all PvE; It's just too good in Open World not to run it and as you say the obvious pick for instanced content. I think Vassals is only superior in WvW/PvP.

 

Ren actually has pretty good trait options; I don't agree that it's only 222 or 221 across the board in PvE. 1/3/3 all get solid use on Alacren and Healren variants. Ren's traits aren't amazing, but they do have options to support 5 different playstyles (power/condi dps, power/condi hybrid support, heal support) which I think is notable. Comparatively, Ren has way more options than Vindicator does

   I find that Vassals overall is  better for OW, the protection + might + boon duration and chill that brings better sustain chances against dangerous foes compared to just have the brute force of a heavy hitting impact of Forerunner: yes Forerunner one shots a lot of weaker foes and combined with stamina sigil makes trivial tro crush small mobs. But when you face some Hero Points or Bounties which are capable to kill you and require longer fights those extra burst of damage weigth less in my opinion that having the ability to endure hard hits or sustained damage without going down. The same happens with the sigil of force which overall I find out to be a better choice than stamina, which essentially does nothing vs bosses.

   Forerunner is also a a weirdly designed skill since the duration of the damage boost is a bit ridiculous: 15 seconds. Imo the jump should be shorter in duration but safer in frames and there's no need for 15s lasting buff since if you hit for 40k with a smaller cast you'll try to spam it as much as possible, whereas curerntly there's a imbalance between the need to deplete your stamina ASAP to get the Leviathan Strength bonus and the need to have some kind of backup defense to avoid heavy damage (you have blocks but they don't work vs some skills, and Riposting Shadows and the Kurzik evade are dangerous as hell in some fights vs bosses at which the terrain is filled with mechanics than will one shoot you if you step in the wrong location.

   You're rigth about Renegade traitline, tho. I forgot about alacrigade. Still not as deep as Mechanits or Firebrand, but yeah, I think that both agree in that Vindicator's traitline has the deep of a rain pond.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

10 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I find that Vassals overall is  better for OW, the protection + might + boon duration and chill that brings better sustain chances against dangerous foes compared to just have the brute force of a heavy hitting impact of Forerunner: yes Forerunner one shots a lot of weaker foes and combined with stamina sigil makes trivial tro crush small mobs. But when you face some Hero Points or Bounties which are capable to kill you and require longer fights those extra burst of damage weigth less in my opinion that having the ability to endure hard hits or sustained damage without going down. The same happens with the sigil of force which overall I find out to be a better choice than stamina, which essentially does nothing vs bosses.

   Forerunner is also a a weirdly designed skill since the duration of the damage boost is a bit ridiculous: 15 seconds. Imo the jump should be shorter in duration but safer in frames and there's no need for 15s lasting buff since if you hit for 40k with a smaller cast you'll try to spam it as much as possible, whereas curerntly there's a imbalance between the need to deplete your stamina ASAP to get the Leviathan Strength bonus and the need to have some kind of backup defense to avoid heavy damage (you have blocks but they don't work vs some skills, and Riposting Shadows and the Kurzik evade are dangerous as hell in some fights vs bosses at which the terrain is filled with mechanics than will one shoot you if you step in the wrong location.

   You're rigth about Renegade traitline, tho. I forgot about alacrigade. Still not as deep as Mechanits or Firebrand, but yeah, I think that both agree in that Vindicator's traitline has the deep of a rain pond.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree about Vassals; I don't run it in Open World and haven't had any issues soloing champs/legendaries. If I was to make any switch it would be to change Swift Termination out to Dance of Death instead for extra sustain. But you're right, Vassals is a decent choice if you want/need the extra sustain; I just typically don't which is why I don't run it

[Buran.3796]

33 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

. If I was to make any switch it would be to change Swift Termination out to Dance of Death instead for extra sustain. But you're right, Vassals is a decent choice if you want/need the extra sustain; I just typically don't which is why I don't run it

   I'm already using Dance of Death, so along Forerunner of Death thaose are my two main sacrifices in damage (in stats I run a mix between Dragon and Berzerker, with Diviner weapons and Fireworks runes). Tried full zerk full damage traits in the past but didn't work for me: too many deaths.

   I'm curious about what TTK you achieve with your Vindi vs some specific targets: one is the Champion Mordrem Vinetooth at Auric Basin. It takes me ~2 minutes to kill him with my celestial Firebrand, ~1'20" with my condi Renegade, celestial Herald and power Vindicator, and ~54" with my trailblazer Willbender (all roaming/OW builds, not specifically built for instanced PvE). The other is the Veteran Bristleback from the Desert Borderlands WvW map: It takes me ~24" seconds to do it with my condi Renegade and Herald, and saw a player doing it in 22" with a PvE Vindicator, but with my Vindi I'm currently unable to mog it before dying. For comparison, takes me 11 or 12 seconds to melt it with my trailblazer Willbender.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I'm already using Dance of Death, so along Forerunner of Death thaose are my two main sacrifices in damage (in stats I run a mix between Dragon and Berzerker, with Diviner weapons and Fireworks runes). Tried full zerk full damage traits in the past but didn't work for me: too many deaths.

   I'm curious about what TTK you achieve with your Vindi vs some specific targets: one is the Champion Mordrem Vinetooth at Auric Basin. It takes me ~2 minutes to kill him with my celestial Firebrand, ~1'20" with my condi Renegade, celestial Herald and power Vindicator, and ~54" with my trailblazer Willbender (all roaming/OW builds, not specifically built for instanced PvE). The other is the Veteran Bristleback from the Desert Borderlands WvW map: It takes me ~24" seconds to do it with my condi Renegade and Herald, and saw a player doing it in 22" with a PvE Vindicator, but with my Vindi I'm currently unable to mog it before dying. For comparison, takes me 11 or 12 seconds to melt it with my trailblazer Willbender.

Yeah the spec is definitely glassy I'm not going to lie. I don't think it's particularly effective at taking out high level targets because it is glassy; requires high apm and awareness to make it work in some cases.

Anyway I'll have to go test for the Champ Vinetooth. As for the Bristleback I'm not too concerned with WvW balance, so I won't test that one. Power builds are super nerfed in WvW/Pvp compared to their pvp versions, so the Vet Bristleback that is in Desert Highlands is way tougher than any PvE Vets for that reason alone. And more importantly how a power spec performs against a Vet creature isn't super relevant to how much damage it deals to a player in WvW with a much smaller health pool. Condi is going to perform better on WvW Vet Creatures 100% of the time because 1) there's no cleanse for a Vet Creature and 2) again power is pretty nerfed due to player health pools being small. That's not to say that condi is necessarily better in WvW; cleanses are really powerful for example and prevent condi from being dominant since even though they have higher damage potential it can all be removed from cleanse alone. That's why it's rarely prevalent as a damage source in large scale groups with lots of cleanse.

But anyway, my focus is mostly PvE balance since I don't WvW or PvP much anymore after all these years, so my comments are focused on that. I'll check out the Champ Vinetooth if I get a chance

Edited July 17, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054