Mirage alac on all ambush skills

[Xionor.8963]

Why limit the alac to staff only. Normally you give alac with F skills or utility skills and giving it this time with a new spec specific skill was a good idea. But then also binding it to only 1 weapon was sadly a bad idea imo. Would be a lot more fun if you could chose what you want like axe/pistol with axe/torch.

Or they could increase the base alac on the staff so you could spam the ambush skill and then swap to a different weapon for 10 seconds.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[Ombras.2853]

In that case they should nerf the damage output of other weapons, tho.

Cuz Axe Mirage is still a very good Condi dps for several bosses.

You can’t realistically imagine that a 40+K Dps will get Alac as well.

[Xionor.8963]

6 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

In that case they should nerf the damage output of other weapons, tho.

Cuz Axe Mirage is still a very good Condi dps for several bosses.

You can’t realistically imagine that a 40+K Dps will get Alac as well.

Actually according to Snowcrows Untamed alac condi is the best alac dps spec. Giving the axe ambush skill alac wouldn't change anything on his rank on the dps ladder. It would boost his dps but wouldn't make him do more damage than untamed which is 1 rank higher (apparently).

Also the decision to use the staff for alac is the absolute worst. The staff was designed for PvP only by the original design team. This becomes apparent because it has 0 dps increasing skills for pve. 2 generates a clone, 3 generates 2 clones and does direct damage, 4 gives you chaos armor which does barely anything as most mobs don't attack fast and 5 does CC with terrible damage and terrible defiance bar damage. No other Mesmer condi build uses it as the only reason to use it is to give alac. Terrible decision imo. That you have to run staff/staff is the icing on the cake.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[LeoXander.2798]

ombras's point was not the damage boost axe mirage would get or the ranking of the dps ladder. the point was that you cant be really high dps in addition to providing a boon. if you are gonna provide a boon while having really high damage, your dps has to be lowered for balance purposes.

[Xionor.8963]

Yes but we already have alac condi Untamed who does 33k. Alac Mirage does 28k. Condi Mirage does 36k.

So how would increasing the damage of condi alac Mirage unbalance anything?

Edited July 16, 2022 by Xionor.8963

[Ombras.2853]

3 hours ago, LeoXander.2798 said:

ombras's point was not the damage boost axe mirage would get or the ranking of the dps ladder. the point was that you cant be really high dps in addition to providing a boon. if you are gonna provide a boon while having really high damage, your dps has to be lowered for balance purposes.

Too difficult to understand for the forum 😄

2 hours ago, Xionor.8963 said:

Yes but we already have alac condi Untamed who does 33k. Alac Mirage does 28k. Condi Mirage does 36k.

So how would increasing the damage of condi alac Mirage unbalance anything?

Not really. Condi Untamed does a lot less, that benchmark never ever translates into reality because of several reasons. But around 31k is the maximum damage output a support currently provides.

Yes, 36k that gives Alac would be simply broken, since those numbers are currently the highest Dps benchmarks (which is around 37k).

 

I understand people wanting buffs for Mesmer (I, myself, have hopes in the incoming patches, hopefully we’ll get Chrono back in action). But they also have to understand the difference between pve and competitive. If you play competitive but don’t have a clue about pve, don’t feel in the need of commenting something you ignore.

Ah, Mirage benchmark is higher btw. Both Axe and Staff. Confusion isn’t shown on the golem.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[godfat.2604]

If the new source of alacrity is coming from a trait competing with Infinite Horizon, damage won’t be too high, might be even too low to be useful. There are a lot of knobs so it’s hard to say without an actual plan, but I do think we need to do something with the double staves mirage. Balance wise it’s ok, but it’s really boring and it feels odd. I don’t think the game should promote camping weapons nor using the same weapon twice just to abuse sigil of energy. It kills build diversity.

[Donut.6914]

On 7/16/2022 at 5:10 AM, Xionor.8963 said:

Actually according to Snowcrows Untamed alac condi is the best alac dps spec

untamed is only the best alac dps if you are fighting training golems

[Suyheuti.1732]

On 7/16/2022 at 1:48 PM, Ombras.2853 said:

In that case they should nerf the damage output of other weapons, tho.

Cuz Axe Mirage is still a very good Condi dps for several bosses.

You can’t realistically imagine that a 40+K Dps will get Alac as well.

They can put alac on a grandmaster trait. For instance, Dune Cloak. "This is useless trait anyway, it can be support trait" When you choose alac trait, you have to sacrifice infinite horizon, that means you will lose hoge dps to be support. That would be fair. 

If anet does this, we can use alac underwater and unused weapon like scepter. (Staff - Scepter/torch would be nice combination instead of double staff) 

[Ombras.2853]

8 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

They can put alac on a grandmaster trait. For instance, Dune Cloak. "This is useless trait anyway, it can be support trait" When you choose alac trait, you have to sacrifice infinite horizon, that means you will lose hoge dps to be support. That would be fair. 

If anet does this, we can use alac underwater and unused weapon like scepter. (Staff - Scepter/torch would be nice combination instead of double staff) 

Yeah, of course this would be a nice solution. Even if it’s annoying in regards of “killing” Staxe Mirage.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I hope you realize that ATM mirage's dps is coming from IH, if you replaced dune cloak for alacrity for all ambush skills then you wont be doing the same dps as you are with IH. Then what is the point in bringing Alacrity mirage when there are others that can do dps and pump out alacrity.

Giving Alacrity on ambush trait isn't the solution.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Kodama.6453]

34 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I hope you realize that ATM mirage's dps is coming from IH, if you replaced dune cloak for alacrity for all ambush skills then you wont be doing the same dps as you are with IH. Then what is the point in bringing Alacrity mirage when there are others that can do dps and pump out alacrity.

Giving Alacrity on ambush trait isn't the solution.

Depends how much the damage would go down, tbh.

Currently, double staff condition mirage deals 28k damage while providing alacrity. That number would go down because of the loss of infinite horizon, but on the other hand it opens up other weapons as sources of damage for alacrity builds.

So if the new alacrity build that emerges manages to still land between 24-28k dps, it would still be fine compared to other boon distributing classes.

Note: Alacrity Untamed is overtuned right now with it's 33k benchmark while providing permanent alacrity and should see a nerf soon.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Depends how much the damage would go down, tbh.

Currently, double staff condition mirage deals 28k damage while providing alacrity. That number would go down because of the loss of infinite horizon, but on the other hand it opens up other weapons as sources of damage for alacrity builds.

So if the new alacrity build that emerges manages to still land between 24-28k dps, it would still be fine compared to other boon distributing classes.

Note: Alacrity Untamed is overtuned right now with it's 33k benchmark while providing permanent alacrity and should see a nerf soon.

Well think of it this way,  without your clones doing ambush attack you are losing on 3 clones worth of ambush which is your main source of damage to begin with. Clones without ambush do no damage whatsoever.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Tseison.4659]

The Alac on all ambush skills is a nice idea but personally if that’s gonna happen, I’d rather it just be personal alac and not shared. It’s not like Mirage has a bunch of other supporting skills anyways and it’s more dps focused, so I don’t see a point in just being an alac bot 🤷‍♂️ and seeing them put alac on Mirage was weird to begin with since it was more of a Chrono thing.

[Kodama.6453]

12 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Well think of it this way,  without your clones doing ambush attack you are losing on 3 clones worth of ambush which is your main source of damage to begin with. Clones without ambush do no damage whatsoever.

Yeah, but on the other hand, the freedom to pick any weapon you want would compensate for the damage loss at least some, right?

Correct me if I am wrong, but staff doesn't really seem to be the best dps weapon in the mirage arsenal. So in the end, this would mean less damage from ambushes, but more damage from the actual weapon skills, right?

Now the question is: how much dps can a mirage do without infinite horizon if they are allowed to take any weapon set they want? Maybe this is already enough compensation for the damage loss to make it still a viable alacrity dps build.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

Yeah, but on the other hand, the freedom to pick any weapon you want would compensate for the damage loss at least some, right?

Correct me if I am wrong, but staff doesn't really seem to be the best dps weapon in the mirage arsenal. So in the end, this would mean less damage from ambushes, but more damage from the actual weapon skills, right?

Now the question is: how much dps can a mirage do without infinite horizon if they are allowed to take any weapon set they want? Maybe this is already enough compensation for the damage loss to make it still a viable alacrity dps build.

I mean you can test this out simply not using IH on a dps dummy...there is an instance for you to test this theory out, but I can tell you without IH your dps is going to tank, again base clones does no damage.

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean you can test this out simply not using IH on a dps dummy...there is an instance for you to test this theory out, but I can tell you without IH your dps is going to tank, again base clones does no damage.

I don't have the legendary armor to test out different kinds of builds, nor do I consider myself knowledgable enough to really do a proper mesmer dps rotation.

I was just pointing out that this might be a viable way for mesmer to provide alacrity, but it needs testing which I am not able to properly do myself.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

I don't have the legendary armor to test out different kinds of builds, nor do I consider myself knowledgable enough to really do a proper mesmer dps rotation.

I was just pointing out that this might be a viable way for mesmer to provide alacrity, but it needs testing which I am not able o properly do myself.

Then I will say this, as a person who mains Mesmer, the only reason why Staff ambush work is because of the condi that it applies for the dps, the power coefficients of the ambush weapon skills are not enough to compensate the lack of clones doing damage as well as clones will not do damage. If this was the case then you are pushing towards Chrono playstyle of Shattering/phantasmal damage which again you are competing against Chrono making Mirage/Chrono lose their identity respectively even more so. 

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Then I will say this, as a person who mains Mesmer, the only reason why Staff ambush work is because of the condi that it applies for the dps, the power coefficients of the ambush weapon skills are not enough to compensate the lack of clones doing damage as well as clones will not do damage. If this was the case then you are pushing towards Chrono playstyle of Shattering/phantasmal damage which again you are competing against Chrono making Mirage/Chrono lose their identity respectively even more so. 

Good point about mirage moving towards a similar playstyle like chronomancer and therefore losing it's identity.

Which leads back to the question why they made mirage an alacrity share class in the first place, tbh. Chronomancer is already able to share both, quickness and alacrity (not on the same build, but it can potentially cover either boon which is not already provided to the group).

Why did anet think that mesmer needs 2 alacrity sharing elite specs in the first place?
Maybe Tseison is right and they should move away from the alacrity mirage all together and balance chronomancer as the proper alacrity class.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Giving Alacrity to Mirage was a mistake to begin with. Removing burn on staff was also a mistake. Overall many mistakes were made with Mirage and the dev team is incompetent to balance anything not just Mesmers. Just look at their recent "hyped" balance patch. 

[Tseison.4659]

32 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Giving Alacrity to Mirage was a mistake to begin with. Removing burn on staff was also a mistake. Overall many mistakes were made with Mirage and the dev team is incompetent to balance anything not just Mesmers. Just look at their recent "hyped" balance patch. 

I agree with you and Kodama. At the end of the day it will continue to come down to why the dev team even bothered to change XYZ on the mirage and even though yes Mirage has that Cdps/Pdps identity; but ever since they added alac, all of a sudden it's suppose to be an alac bot? Yeah no, keep it a condi (and power) focused spec and have the supportive traits/effects on Chrono since that's what it's mainly used as and geared towards.

[Vinny.7260]

Please for the love of all that is holy remove Alacrity from Mirage. Let Mirage be Mesmer's Power Herald like spec but Condi instead... Improve our Carrion Axe build as it was probably Mirage's most difficult build and provided the most reward for playing well. (Do not give us our second dodge, pretend it never happened... Just adjust us as if we never had the second one.)

In PvP it encouraged an unhealthy idea where you use Desert Distortion + Blurred Inscriptions to perpetually ambush and give you and your allies Alacrity... Completely culling Chronomancer's original identity of being the boon-cetric specialization further. Chronomancer's CDs are all jacked up higher because of the fact it supplies itself Alacrity and Mirage doesn't get this punishment.

(Honestly the concept I mentioned above with Mirage isn't as common anymore but it was mostly unfun and just upgraded original Core Signet Mesmer into giving Alacrity as well; small gripe but doesn't hurt the higher tier meta.)

 

[godfat.2604]

I hate the concept that Mirage has alacrity (it feels weird), but I hate Desert Distortion (very clunky and can potentially give too much) even more and I also hate Blurred Inscriptions (stop promoting skills spamming, and it's too overloaded).

If we can rework all of them that would be the best. There were a lot of good suggestions on the forum, only if Anet did really read as they claimed...

I highly doubt any rework can be done, looking at the "major professions update" though. I feel at this point what I can say the most is just stop nerfing mesmer more. Or actually, stop touching it more. Look at the "buff" we got for Chronomancer. I hate to be pessimistic but history repeated too many times.

[godfat.2604]

Here's another idea. Make Infinite Horizon base line, and add a new trait sets (can be grandmaster) that we choose 1 of 3:

* Clones use the same ambush skill as the Mirage (So this will be the same as picking Infinite Horizon right now)

* Clones use "a new ambush skill"

* Clones use "another new ambush skill"

It's not very creative but it should also address the concern that making Infinite Horizon base line too strong. Just make the clones do something else. Tweak the numbers, giving different boons or conditions, etc.

[Zenith.7301]

On 7/16/2022 at 2:13 PM, LeoXander.2798 said:

ombras's point was not the damage boost axe mirage would get or the ranking of the dps ladder. the point was that you cant be really high dps in addition to providing a boon. if you are gonna provide a boon while having really high damage, your dps has to be lowered for balance purposes.

 

 

lol Specter literally craps out 9k barrier every ~10-12 secs and you are worried about alacrity mirage.