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Dungeons need to be fixed


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Dungeons are a severe problem. They play like nothing else in the game, and play very badly. There are too many instant death, half health per hit, and untelegraphed immune to damage mechanics. scaling does not work properly, leading people to die over and over to things that do not seem threatening, and waypoints are too badly placed (1 per dungeon for some) making people very annoyed by having to fully re-traverse the entire dungeon to get back to where they were. The difficulty progression is also way off, with some (such as Caudecus) having severe overscaling and others (Twilight Arbor normal paths ) seeming comically easy in comparison despite nominally being higher level. And of course Arah in general is just bad and far too difficult. Rewards are also very low, and without the dailies or needing something with dungeon currency there is no point to running them. Also the unification of dungeon currency exacerbates the difficulty uneveness, as there is now no reason at all to run the more difficult/annoying dungeons at all other than daily credit. If released to steam in this state people will take notice of the issues, especially as they are directed to dungeons in the story and will find then very jarring and a poor representation of group content.

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Rewards being lacking is definitely true.

But if they were really good, then people would farm them and someone would complain some other content is dead.

Maybe a more fun way to fix them is change the dungeon currency rewards to scale based on the difficulty of the dungeon.

And I mean scale as in multiples.  A single run of Arah should be 1000+ of the currency.  Then people can farm outfits.  And that supports fashion wars.

Edited by SinisterSlay.6973
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9 minutes ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

Rewards being lacking is definitely true.

But if they were really good, then people would farm them and someone would complain some other content is dead.

Just as an example, I just had 3 people quit a Caudecus path 3 run due to the basement rocket turret section. Imagine that en masse in steam reviews. Not to mention multiple people commenting on how their LVL 80 Elite spec ascended equipped but downscaled characters seemed to not be doing damage/CC and how much they were going down/full dead without being able to do anything. "Why is this harder than Verdant Brink" was said.

Edited by Boogiepop Void.6473
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24 minutes ago, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

Just as an example, I just had 3 people quit a Caudecus path 3 run due to the basement rocket turret section. Imagine that en masse in steam reviews. Not to mention multiple people commenting on how their LVL 80 Elite spec ascended equipped but downscaled characters seemed to not be doing damage/CC and how much they were going down/full dead without being able to do anything. "Why is this harder than Verdant Brink" was said.

 

So people rage quit because they couldn't figure out how to do the mechanic correctly?

 

It's pretty simple - you equip one of the rifles you find just before the section and use skills 1-5 to reflect the shots back to the turrets to kill them. If you explain this to people, it's quite easy, and you certainly do not need an elite spec for this. Bonus fact: might makes the damage scale, so if you give might when reflecting then it goes faster. Normal attacks will not do damage, neither will other reflects - you must use the rifles.

 

I genuinely cannot think of a single instant death mechanic in dungeons and I run them a lot. Things taking half your health is normal in any content if it's a boss or a trap, and most stuff seems pretty telegraphed to me (i.e. red circles). Instant down mechanics yes - if you run into a trap, that you can clearly see, you will down.

 

Arah is difficult, but... not excessively so. I'd even say it's very easy now due to power creep. It also gives over 1g per path, which is a lot more than the other dungeons. People DO still run it, and it's been weeks since the change, so you're wrong there again.

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1 hour ago, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

Just as an example, I just had 3 people quit a Caudecus path 3 run due to the basement rocket turret section. Imagine that en masse in steam reviews. Not to mention multiple people commenting on how their LVL 80 Elite spec ascended equipped but downscaled characters seemed to not be doing damage/CC and how much they were going down/full dead without being able to do anything. "Why is this harder than Verdant Brink" was said.

When I pug this dungeon path with newbies I simply tell them, "equip the bundle, when you see a red circle on the ground under your feet, press any key from 1-5, then move back during the cooldown", and they clear it in no time since I explained exactly how to time it, whereas vets will usually just spam the keys hoping to get lucky because "they've done it many times " and "know better".

 

Dungeons aren't hard, especially with current powercreep, the game now having proper healers, etc. Its that players refuse to listen and cooperate, and its usually the more seasoned players, too.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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They won't "fix" dungeons. If they do anything, it'll be to hide them from view (e.g., remove the LFG tab).

People have complained about dungeons for 10 years. Pretty sure they got rid of the dungeon team in the first few months of release, so any major changes are out of the window with the current skeleton crew. Meanwhile rescaling them is diametrically opposed to their design philosophy (make old stuff unappealing, make new stuff the place to be).

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gw2 was a different game back then. people were doing CoF and Coe just to get exotic gear. A p4 arah clear used to be the crowning achievement of the game.

I honestly don't see a point to them reworking dungeons since they've transitioned the 5-man content to fractals. I DO want to see way more fractals. I hardly do fractals anymore because most of them are the same thing from 8 years ago.

Edited by vicky.9751
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Dungeons definitely need a rework to be brought up to the current standards. I won't hold my breath though. ANet has only recently started to look back at older content and only does so since there's a steam release on the table. Before that ANet never really looked back and chances of a long overdue rework were next to zero.

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As I remember dungeons were nerfed by the time they remade fractals. I think it was even when raids were released? Just to force people to move to the new content that gives better gold / gear. Now it's been nerfing fractals taking the mystic coins to give them to eod strikes and favor them, besides adding those legendary chests to return to IBS, the turtle requiring one, many mastery points from them etc. Strikes are the current content they'd be working towards, they wouldn't put any further effort into dungeons. I was surprised they unified the currencies anyway, but that just made weapon/armor collections easier or especially gen 1 legendaries, since you always need 1 dungeon gift.

Putting it short, they are old and abandoned content that would take too much to fix or remake and they can't simply remove them so it's best to just let them be like this.

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I do agree with the messed up scaling, as someone that runs dungeons solo it's extremely obvious in CM and HoTW especially.

 

If you ask me though all dungeon stories should get the Arah treatment, that being integrated officially into the main story and rebalanced for solo players with scaling options for groups.

The explorable paths on the other hand need to be more rewarding and better scaled for difficulty.

AC, should be easy with the least rewards.
CM, should be fairly easy with better rewards than AC.
TA, starting to get more challenging with better rewards than CM.
SE, a bit difficult with better rewards than TA.
Cof, starting to get hard, with really good rewards.
HoTW, pretty hard with great rewards.
Arah, Very hard with superb rewards.

With the dungeon currency being combined into a single one it would be easy to improve this reward based on the difficulty of the dungeon.
Harder dungeons naturally rewarding more of the currency as well as other rewards.

That would give people the choice of unlocking dungeon rewards slowly by only running easy dungeons or much faster by running harder ones.

That's how it should be imo.

Edited by Teratus.2859
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Agreed. They're fun but the scaling does make em undesirable to play. Just need to have a "Unscaled" version for all of em & it should fix it imo.

But they are just collecting dust otherwise. (Minus the Arah Dungeon, that one is just completely lackluster start to finish.)

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New players are directed to dungeons during the story, and they are an important part (you wouldn't have any idea about Destiny's Edge without them). This means that new players will encounter them fairly early. In their current state, they will leave new players with a HORRIBLE impression of group content in the game. Not to mention that with how little older players want to do them, they will feel that the game is "abandoned" at later content tiers. Remember also that "dungeons" have a huge association with hard/late game content due to decades of MMOs and many people coming in will not have knowledge of all the "alternative naming" ANet has done and will view these through the lens of "this is the big repeatable end game content."

The whole point of a Steam launch is to get new players. That means the early game experience, of which dungeons are a big part, needs to be good to keep people from writing off the game. Dungeons CANNOT be left in their current state for this to succeed. Steam right now is a very different environment than solo launch 10 years ago. The dedicated fans from GW1 are already here. And there is a MOUNTAIN of choices for players to go to the second they get bored/annoyed. GW2 has to fix up and nail the beginning experience or it will crash and burn on steam launch, with people never making it to LVL 80 and "the good stuff."

The game gets one chance to launch well. Early game is thus supremely important for the launch, and dungeons are a major detriment to this in their current state, and either need to be fixed or need to be removed in some way (but even just sidelining them won't work since they are needed for the story to make sense; all the work on LW1 won't make a difference if people get confused before then).

They are already taking steps toward this with the early world boss updates, which will hopefully be good. But this same treatment must be given to dungeons. They cannot be ignored any longer.

Edited by Boogiepop Void.6473
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The dungeons are going to cause havoc with the steam players. I`d go as far as to give them all a version of the emboldened buff that appears to help newer raiders - give them a guaranteed, eventual win and then dungeons could be considered educational on mechanics, builds and so on without being the hard roadblock that some of them definitely are to undergeared and inexperienced players.

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1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

Steam players are not helpless. I’m pretty sure they can figure out simple mechanics. 

Its more about expectations and gear. The game sends letters and recommends they go do it at a time when their characters are wearing green gear and hardly function. Its not about dungeons being confusing, its about them being brutal on levelling characters.

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22 minutes ago, chronometria.3708 said:

Its more about expectations and gear. The game sends letters and recommends they go do it at a time when their characters are wearing green gear and hardly function. Its not about dungeons being confusing, its about them being brutal on levelling characters.

Well they were supposed to be the raid content in gw2 at launch after all they should be hard at their intended level.

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18 minutes ago, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

Some of them are hard on level 80 full ascended characters, so they are brutal on green 20 and 30s.

Yes, the post you've just quoted said specifically that it was supposed to be a hard late game content.

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1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, the post you've just quoted said specifically that it was supposed to be a hard late game content.

And the rest of thread is about how it's not end game content if you get sent there at level 20 and that's a problem. Though also that even for late game content it's harder than other late game content (but in different ways that don't reflect the actual late game content elsewhere).

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1 hour ago, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

And the rest of thread is about how it's not end game content if you get sent there at level 20 and that's a problem. Though also that even for late game content it's harder than other late game content (but in different ways that don't reflect the actual late game content elsewhere).

Good for everyone that noone get sent there at lvl 20 then right?

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I fear the Aetherblade path requirement for the recent story chapter achievements ... might be more of a thing to scare people away from the game. (New players.) Instead of getting them to play the dungeons. Have not tried dungeons before and I play fractals up to tier 2 (fractal rush got me into them).

This was a surprise in difficulty increase. Actually having an annoying puzzle (where people could kll the ooze to make it even harder). Needs some minor adjustments here: Making the ooze allied at least.

Or: Increasing the rewards in general for all dungeons. I know this ooze is puzzle is supposed to be easy (and I read the wiki after the first failed try) ... but baiting players with easy stuff first ... they might this to be just some easy stuff as well where it is just about killing bosses. (+ the return to achievements even had "optiona" strike requirements and some of the strikes required less coordination and still were optional)

Everyone now will do this with experienced players still helping. After that the lfg will be empty and I doubt new Steam players in the future will find enough players ... unless reward changes are mad to regularly popular the dungeons. Instead of "do it once to finish the achievement then move on".

Edited by Luthan.5236
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