You should do this more often Anet, in fact..

[Shao.7236]

Probably revert a lot of core nerfs and have traits adjusted based on the elite rather than have everything else suffer.

Because.. 

• Unwavering Avoidance: Reduced vigor duration from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP only when the Vindicator specialization is equipped.

When I saw this I was ready to type a storm but the last part brought my sanity back.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

That's...surprisingly thoughtful.

That balancing direction could help a lot with class interbalance, and making sure the tradeoffs for equipping class specs x and y are encapsulated in the specs themselves instead of spilling over to other denominations.

That's good. Very good. They need to keep doing that (but keep good documentation about what goes where lest the fine details get lost). 

Keep doing that, Anet. And also, if every month the balance changes were about the size of the patch we just got - would be fine. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Probably revert a lot of core nerfs and have traits adjusted based on the elite rather than have everything else suffer.

Because.. 

• Unwavering Avoidance: Reduced vigor duration from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP only when the Vindicator specialization is equipped.

When I saw this I was ready to type a storm but the last part brought my sanity back.

I can imagine CMC  escaping his dungeon and running throught the halls and guards to type with his dying breath , "only when the Vindicator specialization is equipped."

He is not the hero we deserve ....

Edited July 19, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Stand The Wall.6987]

21 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

I can imagine CMC  escaping his dungeon and running throught the halls and guards to type with his dying breath , "only when the Vindicator specialization is equipped."

He is not the hero we deserve ....

praising cmc in this forum is like yelling coca cola is better at a pepsi board meeting.

[Sindrener.1592]

I agree, but they did this with scourge too. Sadly its way too rare.. 

[Exciton.8942]

Now please do this to mirage as well.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

praising cmc in this forum is like yelling coca cola is better at a pepsi board meeting.

 

Hey, at the end of the day we're mad at neglected balance. If there's action that contradicts that, then 👍. 

 

Gonna hold my tongue until its a pattern though. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Swagg.9236]

Feels like an update that a new intern managed to coax out of the spaghetti swamp that is GW2's bloated code.  I was convinced that splitting effects on a conditional basis of "if [spec] = true" was beyond anet's normal level of operational incompetence.  The game is still too bloated, though.

[Kodama.6453]

I hope this is what they have planned for AAR (aim assisted rocket).

Nerf it's damage in case that mechanist elite spec is equipped. The trait is fine on all other specs, just mechanist gets too much out of it by being able to proc it twice with the mech.

Maybe 40% less damage with mechanist? Would still keep the fun synergy and be slightly stronger with mechanist with the double procs, but not as grossly powerful as it is currently.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Kodama.6453]

2 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Feels like an update that a new intern managed to coax out of the spaghetti swamp that is GW2's bloated code.  I was convinced that splitting effects on a conditional basis of "if [spec] = true" was beyond anet's normal level of operational incompetence.  The game is still too bloated, though.

Interactions like these have been in the game at least since 2018, which was the year in which Anet introduced a seperated icd for the Dhuumfire trait if equipped by a Scourge.

Harbinger also released with an exception for Dhuumfire, the trait just applies 1 second of burning instead of 3 seconds if used with that elite spec.

So it's not like this is a new invention. Interactions like these have been in the game at least for 4 years already. But for some reason, Anet is using them very rarely.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[oscuro.9720]

This is very encouraging. It gives a lot more room to handle problematic especs without butchering core classes and/or other especs! Very nice. Much good.

[Swagg.9236]

20 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Interactions like these have been in the game at least since 2018, which was the year in which Anet introduced a seperated icd for the Dhuumfire trait if equipped by a Scourge.

Harbinger also released with an exception for Dhuumfire, the trait just applies 1 second of burning instead of 3 seconds if used with that elite spec.

So it's not like this is a new invention. Interactions like these have been in the game at least for 4 years already. But for some reason, Anet is using them very rarely.

The big question is what do especs really bring to the game if all you're going to do is nerf a bunch of their otherwise salient elements to a baseline that's normalized across the rest of the class' options?  I'm not saying that certain elements aren't grossly overtuned, but seriously, what separates one class spec from another if they're all going to basically do the same thing for the sake of """balance"""?  These sorts of "solutions" aren't really solving anything fundamental; they only succeed in generating a treadmill grind which further homogenizes an already shallow game via a tedious workflow process which will never end.

[Shao.7236]

4 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

The big question is what do especs really bring to the game if all you're going to do is nerf a bunch of their otherwise salient elements to a baseline that's normalized across the rest of the class' options?  I'm not saying that certain elements aren't grossly overtuned, but seriously, what separates one class spec from another if they're all going to basically do the same thing for the sake of """balance"""?  These sorts of "solutions" aren't really solving anything fundamental; they only succeed in generating a treadmill grind which further homogenizes an already shallow game via a tedious workflow process which will never end.

Homogenizing is not a bad thing for the game, that was the main goal of GW2 anyway, being able to do anything and everything in a different way for professions which has it's benefits for a balance but sadly even Anet struggles at play testing for the sake of their community.

Trying to go the RPG way of everyone getting something unique because thinking it wouldn't make the game "shallow" is an illusion when you're making older content irrelevant in the end. Hence why having stuff "homogenized" has it's place since you can do whatever "differently" but achieved balanced results.

The "non-shallow" part comes from the fact that professions have their unique spins and with those spins do not have all the options of one another, sometimes it may reach into one but shouldn't overperform.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Goldilock.2584]

Yes anet please do this more often, please delete classes to make them un playable in pvp unstead of changes and buffing other classes. Great job 👏 👍 👌 🙌 

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Goldilock.2584 said:

Yes anet please do this more often, please delete classes to make them un playable in pvp unstead of changes and buffing other classes. Great job 👏 👍 👌 🙌 

You never read OP.

[Vinny.7260]

Maybe they'll look at all the other things that could warrant this kinda split.

 

Baby steps!

[semak.7481]

On 7/20/2022 at 12:07 AM, Shao.7236 said:

Probably revert a lot of core nerfs and have traits adjusted based on the elite rather than have everything else suffer.

Because.. 

• Unwavering Avoidance: Reduced vigor duration from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP only when the Vindicator specialization is equipped.

When I saw this I was ready to type a storm but the last part brought my sanity back.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion
Every single class who has vigor on crit - 5/10, mesmer 3/10 (nearly 50% nerf for mesmer only, while in the same time vigor on shatter for mirage was cut in half from 3 to 1.5)
Iirc necro trait for curses was also split when scourge is equipped and it was BEFORE universal core mesmer nerf.

I dont see any class bias here ( /s ) nor anything that could return my sanity back, specially in this game

Edited July 21, 2022 by semak.7481

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_Infusion
Every single class who has vigor on crit - 5/10, mesmer 3/10 (nearly 50% nerf for mesmer only, while in the same time vigor on shatter for mirage was cut in half from 3 to 1.5)
Iirc necro trait for curses was also split when scourge is equipped and it was BEFORE universal core mesmer nerf.

I dont see any class bias here ( /s ) nor anything that could return my sanity back, specially in this game

So.. You don't want nerfs attributed to elites that are specifically overperforming and would rather have profession wide nerfs?

Fyi if you want class bias, my entire favorite profession is nearly unplayable now. Even if I decide to be a meta pleb I am at a disavantage.

[Swagg.9236]

On 7/21/2022 at 7:06 PM, Shao.7236 said:

Homogenizing is not a bad thing for the game, that was the main goal of GW2 anyway, being able to do anything and everything in a different way for professions which has it's benefits for a balance but sadly even Anet struggles at play testing for the sake of their community.

Trying to go the RPG way of everyone getting something unique because thinking it wouldn't make the game "shallow" is an illusion when you're making older content irrelevant in the end. Hence why having stuff "homogenized" has it's place since you can do whatever "differently" but achieved balanced results.

The "non-shallow" part comes from the fact that professions have their unique spins and with those spins do not have all the options of one another, sometimes it may reach into one but shouldn't overperform.

Homogenization stifles creativity and player expression.  Without room for creativity, there is no decent measuring stick for game sense because the outcome of most interactions resolve under binary or flowchart-esque conditions.  Without need for consistent metrics to gauge game sense, the skill ceiling is kept cripplingly low.  It's really about playtesting; it's about design. 

GW2 PvP is functioning properly.  In fact, considering how positively BUSTED GW2 was for the longest time post-launch, AND the reality of how every major patch or expac drop has consistently resulted in at least a couple of catastrophic mechanic failures amid a blizzard of other issues, one could argue that GW2 PvP is generally the least "broken" part about this game.  The fact that you might not like it despite taking it seriously, or playing it, or complaining vaguely about how it ought to be, has no real bearing on the work and development which has made GW2 the game that it has ultimately always been.

There's no hidden illusion to obfuscate GW2's secret depth and creative complexity.  It was designed to be super simple, but that doesn't mean that you can't make a game balanced around soft counters and flexible roles.  Guild Wars 1 had more player expression than GW2, and the former didn't even have movement options outside of 45° increments along the cardinal directional axis.  

There's no need to leave anything behind, but you also have to recognize how much bloat the game has.  There's also no reason as to why class roles and mechanics couldn't receive universal updates, but anet never did that either.  Instead of PvP getting more meaningful movement options and freedom to decide how to engage or break off attacks, you just get more targeted teleports and protracted risk-insulation.  Instead of getting conditional effects based on moment speed, attack direction, distance traveled or range thresholds, you just get baseline numbers that go up or down.

I don't know what else to tell you.  You could ask for literally every trait in GW2 to get some neverending steam of cul-de-sac spaghetti code addendums to make every spec yield similar numbers, or you could also trash the whole trait system and just give every class their own function-driven version of mount movement to affect the battlefield and support teammates before building attacks around that paradigm.

 

[Kodama.6453]

22 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

So.. You don't want nerfs attributed to elites that are specifically overperforming and would rather have profession wide nerfs?

Fyi if you want class bias, my entire favorite profession is nearly unplayable now. Even if I decide to be a meta pleb I am at a disavantage.

I think their point is the exact opposite.

Mesmer got an overarcing nerf for all specs when they nerfed the trait critical infusion. The reason for the nerf has been the mirage elite spec most likely (which was using any method it had to gain more dodges, like through vigor, so they can keep spamming ambushes).

The system to nerf traits when used in conjunction with an elite spec has already been established. So Anet could have went the same path for mesmer here, by just nerfing the vigor duration from critical infusion if it is used with the mirage elite spec. But instead, they made it a general nerf for all mesmer classes.

So I think they want to point out that mesmer got treated unfairly when it got punished in core because of the overperformance of an elite spec (mirage). They could have nerfed the effect for mirage specifically instead.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I think their point is the exact opposite.

Mesmer got an overarcing nerf for all specs when they nerfed the trait critical infusion. The reason for the nerf has been the mirage elite spec most likely (which was using any method it had to gain more dodges, like through vigor, so they can keep spamming ambushes).

The system to nerf traits when used in conjunction with an elite spec has already been established. So Anet could have went the same path for mesmer here, by just nerfing the vigor duration from critical infusion if it is used with the mirage elite spec. But instead, they made it a general nerf for all mesmer classes.

So I think they want to point out that mesmer got treated unfairly when it got punished in core because of the overperformance of an elite spec (mirage). They could have nerfed the effect for mirage specifically instead.

god finally someone can read and understand...the lack of critical thinkers in this game is really the downfall....

[Shao.7236]

5 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I think their point is the exact opposite.

Mesmer got an overarcing nerf for all specs when they nerfed the trait critical infusion. The reason for the nerf has been the mirage elite spec most likely (which was using any method it had to gain more dodges, like through vigor, so they can keep spamming ambushes).

The system to nerf traits when used in conjunction with an elite spec has already been established. So Anet could have went the same path for mesmer here, by just nerfing the vigor duration from critical infusion if it is used with the mirage elite spec. But instead, they made it a general nerf for all mesmer classes.

So I think they want to point out that mesmer got treated unfairly when it got punished in core because of the overperformance of an elite spec (mirage). They could have nerfed the effect for mirage specifically instead.

His "sarcasm" is backwards.

[Shao.7236]

6 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

Homogenization stifles creativity and player expression.  Without room for creativity, there is no decent measuring stick for game sense because the outcome of most interactions resolve under binary or flowchart-esque conditions.  Without need for consistent metrics to gauge game sense, the skill ceiling is kept cripplingly low.  It's really about playtesting; it's about design. 

GW2 PvP is functioning properly.  In fact, considering how positively BUSTED GW2 was for the longest time post-launch, AND the reality of how every major patch or expac drop has consistently resulted in at least a couple of catastrophic mechanic failures amid a blizzard of other issues, one could argue that GW2 PvP is generally the least "broken" part about this game.  The fact that you might not like it despite taking it seriously, or playing it, or complaining vaguely about how it ought to be, has no real bearing on the work and development which has made GW2 the game that it has ultimately always been.

There's no hidden illusion to obfuscate GW2's secret depth and creative complexity.  It was designed to be super simple, but that doesn't mean that you can't make a game balanced around soft counters and flexible roles.  Guild Wars 1 had more player expression than GW2, and the former didn't even have movement options outside of 45° increments along the cardinal directional axis.  

There's no need to leave anything behind, but you also have to recognize how much bloat the game has.  There's also no reason as to why class roles and mechanics couldn't receive universal updates, but anet never did that either.  Instead of PvP getting more meaningful movement options and freedom to decide how to engage or break off attacks, you just get more targeted teleports and protracted risk-insulation.  Instead of getting conditional effects based on moment speed, attack direction, distance traveled or range thresholds, you just get baseline numbers that go up or down.

I don't know what else to tell you.  You could ask for literally every trait in GW2 to get some neverending steam of cul-de-sac spaghetti code addendums to make every spec yield similar numbers, or you could also trash the whole trait system and just give every class their own function-driven version of mount movement to affect the battlefield and support teammates before building attacks around that paradigm.

 

Player creativity and expression comes from the fact that you have choices and you won't have choices when one overshadows the other. The look for "meaning" in choice will always be an illusion in a balanced world.

There's no critical thinking required whatsoever to see that if one class has hardly access to weakness while the other has over 60 seconds that we have a problem.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Why the heck would they unnerf critical infusion for all but mirage? Mirage is one of the specs with less amount of vigor and the spec with least amount of dodge access. 

 

[Kuma.1503]

Can we get this retroactively applied to engi shield?