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ANet, please do more balance updates like the 1 July one


SponTen.1267

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Disclaimer: Referring only to PvE here, and as a whole, not just the top-end content.

 

While there's a lot of things that can be changed overall, and lots of discussions going on, I feel like the 1 July Hotfix was actually one of the best little balance patches I've seen, despite being mostly small numbers changes.

There are so many weapons and skills that could benefit from changes like this:

- Warrior Rifle

- Revenant Hammer

- Engineer Elixir Gun

- Ele Staff

- Thief Dagger 2, Sword/Dagger 3, Shortbow, Pistols

- Necro Staff

- Tons of Utilities like Ele Cantrips, most Signets (eg. Guardian Signets are great now), Warrior Physical skills

- Specs like Thief Acrobatics

- Most Healing skills could do with a coefficient boost

If a few of the above had simple numbers updates every few weeks/months, it would open up sooo much more flexibility with builds.

Of course, there'd probably need to be nerfs/readjustments to go along with these, to prevent power creep, but if these kinds of changes don't require as much dev time as the Engineer Rifle rework (as an example), there wouldn't be as much need for drastic reworks that sometimes work (Engi Rifle), and sometimes fail (Banners).

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Agreed. A lot of things could really be fixed just with some numbers changes.

  • 300s Cooldown traits? Just lower the cooldowns. Honestly the effects aren't so strong that a 60s cooldown was too long, anyway. Some aren't even worth a 60s one.
  • Rev Hammer damage too low? Well the auto-attack is a projectile which makes it easily counterable, not to mention extremely slow, so tweak the numbers there to make it actually worthwhile. Plenty of classes can deal good damage at 1200 range. Why can't a rev do this even with an auto attack? With their only 1200 ranged option?
  • Elementalist Staff raining cotton balls instead of meteors? Simple number fix would help there, too. The skill takes way too long to cast and it's a planted AoE that can be dodged out of. There's no reason it shouldn't hit hard. I think Grouch just didn't like a bunch of Eles dropping meteors on his zerg when attacking a gate or something. There were better ways of dealing with that, than ruining Ele's only crappy 1200 range weapon. See Rev.
  • Tired of thieves with their stealth? Well change some numbers in Acrobatics so they can fight without relying so much on it.
  • Want to play a bow class that isn't tied to a nature theme, or a guardian? Well with some numbers tweaks on Warrior we could have this.

 

And Anet don't feel like you have to be so conservative with changes. There are a LOT of things to consider when balancing. Like if a class is extremely squishy, they need multiple ways to cover this or they just won't work. Hence thieves needing stealth and dodges, willbender needing mobility and crashing courage. Holosmith is kitten near perfect with this. You get stability, you get quickness, you get CC, you get stealth, you get melee burst and ranged burst, you get root/chill/cripple removal on a leap along with superspeed (since mobility is very important on power), you get a safe way to stomp a downed enemy (Elixir S I think it is). All on the same build. And is balanced by it's own cooldowns and windows that you get the buffs.

More power builds need to be like Holosmith. (WvW) And no, Holosmith doesn't need to be nerfed. Maybe grenade damage can be slightly lowered, but they're only really good with quickness anyway.

But anyway, these small patches could really help and would also save us from having to wait so long for changes. Which, personally, I had quit before EoD's announcements because of the constant nerfs ruining our fun. So I've been waiting for A WHILE. It was only because I'd been wanting an Asian themed expansion that I even came back. But man oh man...no disrespect to the team, you guys have done a great job with everything else, but the balance and FUN needs to be top priority for a while.

You can see just from this last balance patch. There were plenty of cool things in it, and yet people were outraged. Imagine telling someone something over and over and they ignore you. That's how a lot of people felt.

Also don't let all the people complaining about Harbs and Willbenders and Mechanists keep you from making good QoL changes for them, too. They also need some things.

 

 

Edited by Arolandis.8360
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8 hours ago, shib.1369 said:

We overall need more regular number tunings, instead of nuking specs every 6 months

PLEASE this.

Overhauls are fine, but we already have 9 classes with 3 Elites each that are actually quite unique in theme and playstyle. Frequent numbers tweaks would go a long way towards making more of them on-par with each other.

No one would complain about seeing more Conjured Flame Axe-wielding Eles, pew pew Shortbow Thieves, actual caster Staff Necros, assault Rifle Wariors, etc (provided they weren't over-buffed like Engi Rifle lol).

The Ranger weapon changes didn't break the game, and now we have more options. Nice, simple, quick (or at least, quicker to test and implement than overhauls like Engi Rifle), and they didn't destroy anyone's playstyle because they didn't change the fundamentals of the weapons.

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Aye its definitely a step in the right direction. If they balanced Mech down to be in line with the other top dps and brought up the floor a little bit on others. Would be in a fairly good spot right now imo.

My concern is this last patch came and buffed Mechanists, which seems such an obvious oversight...

There's still things to fix and what not, but they're so close to a baseline right now to start actually having balance.

If I were in charge of the balance team I'd identify why Mech got out of line now to learn & prevent the mistake. These are the type mistakes that shouldn't repeat over a 10 year game. Fine it has happened historically, moving forward, lets learn from it now.

But otherwise they've got an opportunity for something healthy and positive, 28th patch was still a large step in the wrong direction but these micro patches are 90% positive.

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Voyant, the last patch 28/06 literally nerfed Mecha, and the hot fix of the 01/07 nerfed it even more on all damage sides.

The AARocket used after the patch could have been used before, but noone posted the result from it, unlike what happened after the rifle change, but i assure you, Mecha was a lot stronger before patch 28/06 strike, and there was no big problem about it..... (that is why i am so surprised from all the "nerf Mecha posts" that come after the Patch that obviously nerfed the class from how was before)

Plus, i don't know from where the new of Mecha be top dps come from??

Using the POWER full rifle/kit grenade rotation with all at max on boons and condition on the golem (engi have a trait who give more damage the more number of condition on something are) over the normal limits we have in OW, he do around 35k...... in the middle of the dps ranker on the golem. All proved in the SnowCrow ranked classes.

We have various other classes who surpass it (one is the Virtuoso, a ranged class like the mecha build used, we have the Bladesworn too, even though he cannot move around if you want to reach the top dps from it), but noone talk about them.

All these info (and numbers) are facts proved and tested, but people continue to see Mecha as OP class when he was nerfed multiple times...... check the data please, and i mean the serious data, not some random video or comment where people say rifle mecha without buff do 30k dps, they was false (expecially the video, the person did around 25k full buffed and checked, but someone reported 30k unbuffed for whatever motive).

I myself tested Mecha Rifle full 111111 and the result was (After 01/07 hot fix) around 23k dps against the golem.

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Its just eclipsing other dps like Virtuoso or Catalyst used to still. At top build its not within the same range, and like I said I've no issues with it if that was the baseline. But they just brought those other two to be in line with the rest at top end....

Which is why I say its weird. If they hadn't nerfed other specs in similar situation it be a whole different ballgame. I'm not alone in my opinion that Mech is out of hand in comparison. (Also look at the forum post in which they're 1/4th of all raiding players for more info on this.)

There's forum posts, reddit posts, and quite a few replies all around the same thing. Just bring it in line with everyone else. 

And Snowcrows works for that line of thinking, they are not the end all be all. Plenty of people outdps their benchmarks. Its just a good guide for people just getting started/those who don't min-max their own builds. Go do a t4 fractal and see how many times something other then a mech is top dps. 

Edited by Voyant.1327
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The problem is that the class was in line with the rest after 28/06 patch, but get more nerfs in the hot fix 01/07 and they announced even more in the august patch........ is like how dps guardians now are around 32k dps and people say guardians get buffed after 28/06 patch (when they are literally on the lower part in the dps ranking as power dps build and the condi build (full dependant by Justice active effect so if is off, you loose a lot of the dps) is around 35k, like the Mecha with full rotation used or a Condi Berserker, and people say the warrior class is the worst one as dps ranking......).

I posted the thing about the 1/4 are Mecha in raid too in another topic, but i can repeat it here.

Simple fact, Mecha is a simple and easy to play class. If you check the 28/06 patch, you see an Extra in it about Raid, the so called "easy power up raid", where you can became stronger the more you die to a boss in a raid that have that "bonus of the week" active.

Do you think that option is for the top elite raiders around the game or is an option for the casual players Anet try to set in end game contents?

And what class a casual players would be able to take in a raid complex party? The "piano key rotation" one like catalist or an easy and simple to use like the Mecha? (the answer is straight easy to see in that post). So here is the explanation why you see many Mecha instead of other classes now in raid, cause they are simple and easy to use. (the rest as dps are normally Virtuoso plus some other extra if not all Virtuoso).

I did today Fractal and the top dps was my Vindicator against 2 Mecha, even though i died a lot (1 dodge only limitation is problematic if i need to use it for the extra % damage), but they used Mecha and they had like 6k AP and 8k AP.......... the 26k ap was using spectre, just to add extra info, plus the obvious FB healer for quickness.

 

Edited by ThunderX.6591
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On 7/19/2022 at 11:08 PM, Arolandis.8360 said:

Tired of thieves with their stealth? Well change some numbers in Acrobatics so they can fight without relying so much on it.

 

This.  If thief had any sustain that wasn't a pittance easily slapped away by an angry choya, they wouldn't be running Shadow Arts all the time.

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On 7/20/2022 at 12:57 AM, SponTen.1267 said:

Guardian Signets are great now

Thats a false statment.

    In which case are you going to run signets and the trait together. First, if you are going for the support/heal path i wont bother on taking radiance, then if you are going for utility you are not going to lose either ampliefied wrath nor righteous instincts on those dps utility builds and the heal skill Litany of Wrath is way better in most cases except when you are not able to dps after using it.

 

  Let's go 1 by 1 (Note that some are improved and others are not, but in any case i would take most of them being out there better choices):

   -Signet of Resolve; if you are going dps you are going to run 100% Litany of Wrath, as an example willbender is way better traiting absolute resolve and taking litany of wrath. If you are going to support as a firebrand on PVE you will take mantra of solace and get the benefit of the trait liberator's vow, on PVP you are going to run 100% the shout trait + the shout heal.

   -Signet of Mercy; good improvment reducing the cd on pve being a situational choice for pve firebrand healers but you are not going to take the radiance traitline so dont count on its passive.

   -Signet of Wrath; Pretty much useless improvment on the active, cause you are taking  this utility for its passive. Again not worth traiting Perfect inscriptions on those builds.

   -Signet of courage; Maybe in paper can feel good, but first of you have to be static till using it with the radius being decreased. I will only bother taking this for the passive and the old one was way better for supports allowing them to max heal the party from a larger radius (it had 1200 range now 600).

   -Bane signet; Big nerf not allowing now to share its passive with the party on burst phases with the rework they made on the trait.

 

I'm not against changes but when they are done properly. What it hurst me the most is having to rework my builds for some random nerf done by anet. I like to tweak things but i don't like at all having to throw my builds, time and sources for some random reworks. Hopefully some day they will allow us to play the game.

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On 7/22/2022 at 7:16 AM, Voyant.1327 said:

Its just eclipsing other dps like Virtuoso or Catalyst used to still. At top build its not within the same range, and like I said I've no issues with it if that was the baseline. But they just brought those other two to be in line with the rest at top end....

Which is why I say its weird. If they hadn't nerfed other specs in similar situation it be a whole different ballgame. I'm not alone in my opinion that Mech is out of hand in comparison. (Also look at the forum post in which they're 1/4th of all raiding players for more info on this.)

There's forum posts, reddit posts, and quite a few replies all around the same thing. Just bring it in line with everyone else. 

And Snowcrows works for that line of thinking, they are not the end all be all. Plenty of people outdps their benchmarks. Its just a good guide for people just getting started/those who don't min-max their own builds. Go do a t4 fractal and see how many times something other then a mech is top dps. 

As someone who plays a LOT of catalyst in endgame content.  Anet should not be bringing things down to its level. It has so many flaws that hold it back. 

If you wipe on a fight or have to /gg, you're forced to start your rotation from 0 energy, which feels garbage. 

Running quickness forces you to eat a two 10% damage losses from traits alone. 

As usual, the class is boggled down with long cast times which will screw you over when mechanics come into play. Trying to get off a cast of hurricane of pain against bosses that spam daze/kb/knockback is suffering. The game expects you to dodge these mechanics, but doing so forces you to cancel it and lose a lot of dps. And for some reason the hammer doesn't deal damage even though you're spinning on top of enemies at a high velocity? 

If they were going to make the hammer not deal damage during Hurricane of pain,  they should cut the channel, have a brief wind up and then create a stationary cyclone.

Elemental Empowerment and Empowered Empowerment are designed terribly. For some reason, they didn't give ele the quality of life they gave other proffessions when designing this, so gaining a stack doesn't refresh your other stacks. Meaning you can't maintain 10 stacks even with a perfect rotation, and especially not when you throw CC mobs into the mix. It's unnecessarily punishing for a class that's already punishing. 

To add insult to injury, Empwered Empowerment does nothing unless you're at max stacks. Meaning throughout a good chunk of the fight, you're working with a dead grandmaster trait. In my experience, I deal more damage going for Staunch Auras than I do going for Empowered empowerment, because the stab lets me get off my long cast times uninterrupted. 

In spite all of this, I do still manage to pull my weight while playing it, but most people aren't masochists. Don't drag down the classes that actually feel fun/satisfying to play. Bring builds like Catalyst up. 

And for the love of dwayna, ANET, scrap the entire banner rework while you're at it. Who thought ANYTHING about that was okay? That rework goes well beyond incompetence. Whoever designed that, isn't just legitimately bad their job, they lack even the most basic understanding of how numbers work. How is this... thing  supposed to maintain quickness? It only gives a pathetic amount on initial placement. 

And on top of that, we have the gamaplay of picking up banners again, but instead of giving back banner skills, they gave us the worst of both worlds and it locks our skillbar. Lovely. 

If I was a warrior main, I'd quit the game honestly.  

 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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2 hours ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

Thats a false statment.

    In which case are you going to run signets and the trait together. First, if you are going for the support/heal path i wont bother on taking radiance, then if you are going for utility you are not going to lose either ampliefied wrath nor righteous instincts on those dps utility builds and the heal skill Litany of Wrath is way better in most cases except when you are not able to dps after using it.

 

  Let's go 1 by 1 (Note that some are improved and others are not, but in any case i would take most of them being out there better choices):

   -Signet of Resolve; if you are going dps you are going to run 100% Litany of Wrath, as an example willbender is way better traiting absolute resolve and taking litany of wrath. If you are going to support as a firebrand on PVE you will take mantra of solace and get the benefit of the trait liberator's vow, on PVP you are going to run 100% the shout trait + the shout heal.

   -Signet of Mercy; good improvment reducing the cd on pve being a situational choice for pve firebrand healers but you are not going to take the radiance traitline so dont count on its passive.

   -Signet of Wrath; Pretty much useless improvment on the active, cause you are taking  this utility for its passive. Again not worth traiting Perfect inscriptions on those builds.

   -Signet of courage; Maybe in paper can feel good, but first of you have to be static till using it with the radius being decreased. I will only bother taking this for the passive and the old one was way better for supports allowing them to max heal the party from a larger radius (it had 1200 range now 600).

   -Bane signet; Big nerf not allowing now to share its passive with the party on burst phases with the rework they made on the trait.

 

I'm not against changes but when they are done properly. What it hurst me the most is having to rework my builds for some random nerf done by anet. I like to tweak things but i don't like at all having to throw my builds, time and sources for some random reworks. Hopefully some day they will allow us to play the game.

Thanks for setting things straight! People just see the changes and think things were buffed while completely ignoring how useful it actually is in real scenarios. Radiance died on HFB with the removal of signet share and Perfect Inscriptions (you'd have to take it as currently signets are largely taken because of their passives and a lack of better alternatives) is far overshadowed on both Power and Condi DPS. These basically "fake" buffs lead to an outcry of the uninformed which then leads to actual nerfs not leveling a class but making it worse. A close example is the 5% crit chance increase for Warrior being placed in the Arms traitline originally, making it a paper buff but virtually useless as Power builds - which need it - don't run Arms .There people righteously called ANet out on it but I guess here this is yet another case of hurr durr guard buffed game dead. Imo the recent balance patch made so many DPS builds completely redundant which actually turned the landscape way more homogenous compared to what it was pre-patch instead of enabling everyone to play what they like and do good with it (this is still and will always be possible, but I am just assuming that everyone even talking about these topics is at least a bit competitive and if one build does 32k DPS and another 37k DPS while also being easier to play, the choice isn't exactly hard to make). Ranger, Bladesworn and Mech got their damage lifted up again quite fast - which is great, why do we have to wait so long for pretty much everything else (with very few exceptions like e.g. Specter) to be made worthwhile again with many specs not being even mentioned in the upcoming roadmap list?

Edited by Massimoni.9453
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8 hours ago, Ruisenior.6342 said:

Thats a false statment.

    In which case are you going to run signets and the trait together. First, if you are going for the support/heal path i wont bother on taking radiance, then if you are going for utility you are not going to lose either ampliefied wrath nor righteous instincts on those dps utility builds and the heal skill Litany of Wrath is way better in most cases except when you are not able to dps after using it.

 

  Let's go 1 by 1 (Note that some are improved and others are not, but in any case i would take most of them being out there better choices):

   -Signet of Resolve; if you are going dps you are going to run 100% Litany of Wrath, as an example willbender is way better traiting absolute resolve and taking litany of wrath. If you are going to support as a firebrand on PVE you will take mantra of solace and get the benefit of the trait liberator's vow, on PVP you are going to run 100% the shout trait + the shout heal.

   -Signet of Mercy; good improvment reducing the cd on pve being a situational choice for pve firebrand healers but you are not going to take the radiance traitline so dont count on its passive.

   -Signet of Wrath; Pretty much useless improvment on the active, cause you are taking  this utility for its passive. Again not worth traiting Perfect inscriptions on those builds.

   -Signet of courage; Maybe in paper can feel good, but first of you have to be static till using it with the radius being decreased. I will only bother taking this for the passive and the old one was way better for supports allowing them to max heal the party from a larger radius (it had 1200 range now 600).

   -Bane signet; Big nerf not allowing now to share its passive with the party on burst phases with the rework they made on the trait.

 

I'm not against changes but when they are done properly. What it hurst me the most is having to rework my builds for some random nerf done by anet. I like to tweak things but i don't like at all having to throw my builds, time and sources for some random reworks. Hopefully some day they will allow us to play the game.

No it's not.

Once again, as per my disclaimer, I am referring to PvE as a whole and not just top-end content. All of the Signets are a lot more applicable throughout the game now, though Signet of Courage can be worse in a few cases, eg. against healing reduction effects like Agony.

However, Perfect Inscriptions is now worse. I also don't like that it's just a copy/paste of Ele's Written in Stone... except better. Of course yet another Elementalist mechanic just isn't as good as a directly-comparable one on Guardian.

You're referring to top-end content; I'm referring to the entire PvE experience. I'm also not saying Signets are universally better than comparable skills in those slots; just that they're a lot better than they were.

 

7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

As someone who plays a LOT of catalyst in endgame content.  Anet should not be bringing things down to its level. It has so many flaws that hold it back. 

If you wipe on a fight or have to /gg, you're forced to start your rotation from 0 energy, which feels garbage. 

Running quickness forces you to eat a two 10% damage losses from traits alone. 

As usual, the class is boggled down with long cast times which will screw you over when mechanics come into play. Trying to get off a cast of hurricane of pain against bosses that spam daze/kb/knockback is suffering. The game expects you to dodge these mechanics, but doing so forces you to cancel it and lose a lot of dps. And for some reason the hammer doesn't deal damage even though you're spinning on top of enemies at a high velocity? 

If they were going to make the hammer not deal damage during Hurricane of pain,  they should cut the channel, have a brief wind up and then create a stationary cyclone.

Elemental Empowerment and Empowered Empowerment are designed terribly. For some reason, they didn't give ele the quality of life they gave other proffessions when designing this, so gaining a stack doesn't refresh your other stacks. Meaning you can't maintain 10 stacks even with a perfect rotation, and especially not when you throw CC mobs into the mix. It's unnecessarily punishing for a class that's already punishing. 

To add insult to injury, Empwered Empowerment does nothing unless you're at max stacks. Meaning throughout a good chunk of the fight, you're working with a dead grandmaster trait. In my experience, I deal more damage going for Staunch Auras than I do going for Empowered empowerment, because the stab lets me get off my long cast times uninterrupted. 

In spite all of this, I do still manage to pull my weight while playing it, but most people aren't masochists. Don't drag down the classes that actually feel fun/satisfying to play. Bring builds like Catalyst up. 

And for the love of dwayna, ANET, scrap the entire banner rework while you're at it. Who thought ANYTHING about that was okay? That rework goes well beyond incompetence. Whoever designed that, isn't just legitimately bad their job, they lack even the most basic understanding of how numbers work. How is this... thing  supposed to maintain quickness? It only gives a pathetic amount on initial placement. 

And on top of that, we have the gamaplay of picking up banners again, but instead of giving back banner skills, they gave us the worst of both worlds and it locks our skillbar. Lovely. 

If I was a warrior main, I'd quit the game honestly.  

 

I agree with nearly everything you said.

The one thing I'm hoping ANet are careful with is over-buffing everything. The early game is already way too easy, to the point where my non-gamer partner gave GW2 a shot and was asking "Do I ever have to actually think about combat?", and this is compounded by high level players instantly obliterating everything during events in low level zones.

Being nerfed/buffed is relative to everything else. Just bringing up the power of all classes to the level of Firebrand, Mechanist, and Virtuoso won't immediately solve everything; sure, balance will be better, but now 90% of the game's combat is obsolete, so nothing will matter anyway. There needs to be challenging combat throughout the game, not only at the very top-end of endgame.

 

7 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Thanks for setting things straight! People just see the changes and think things were buffed while completely ignoring how useful it actually is in real scenarios. Radiance died on HFB with the removal of signet share and Perfect Inscriptions (you'd have to take it as currently signets are largely taken because of their passives and a lack of better alternatives) is far overshadowed on both Power and Condi DPS. These basically "fake" buffs lead to an outcry of the uninformed which then leads to actual nerfs not leveling a class but making it worse. A close example is the 5% crit chance increase for Warrior being placed in the Arms traitline originally, making it a paper buff but virtually useless as Power builds - which need it - don't run Arms .There people righteously called ANet out on it but I guess here this is yet another case of hurr durr guard buffed game dead. Imo the recent balance patch made so many DPS builds completely redundant which actually turned the landscape way more homogenous compared to what it was pre-patch instead of enabling everyone to play what they like and do good with it (this is still and will always be possible, but I am just assuming that everyone even talking about these topics is at least a bit competitive and if one build does 32k DPS and another 37k DPS while also being easier to play, the choice isn't exactly hard to make). Ranger, Bladesworn and Mech got their damage lifted up again quite fast - which is great, why do we have to wait so long for pretty much everything else (with very few exceptions like e.g. Specter) to be made worthwhile again with many specs not being even mentioned in the upcoming roadmap list?

Radiance not being taken on one specific build in only top-end content, solely in groups of players who are trying to 100% min/max, is wayyyy too niche of a thing for this thread. I agree that the removal of Signet sharing with Perfect Inscriptions was the wrong way to go, but the whole point of this thread was discuss balance for the broader community throughout the entire PvE experience; not just min/maxed group play in top-end content.

This is the same thing with Arms on Warrior. I know that Arms isn't taken by min/maxing players in top-end content, but that is a very small slice of the game. Arms is still a great spec throughout the rest of the game.

The same thing again applies to Catalyst; ANet did nerf a single build for extremely skilled group play for the tippity-top-end 0.01%, but in doing so they also negatively affected probably 90% of other Catalyst players, who already weren't in a great spot.

 

What I would love to see is for ANet to focus on some very simple changes, exactly like what was done with Ranger weapons with the 1 July patch:

- If some weapons/skills/traits are overused and/or overpowered, just reduce their power by ~5%. Please refrain from nerfing skills 5 different ways in one patch.

- Likewise, for the many, many others that are underused/underpowered, please increase their power by ~5%.

- Post your reasoning behind each, eg. "Revenant Hammer is never used because it does no damage, so we've increased the damage on its auto attack by 5%, and the damage on its 2-5 skills by 10%. Also, we fixed the range bug on its 2 skill."

Keep doing this every few weeks until we have a bit more of an equilibrium without homogenising everything, and then focus on any reworks, if they're even required any more.

Please ANet, please give this a try. I know it's not "OMG LOOK AT WHAT CHANGED 😱" hype, but you will see more positive feedback about build variety over time, and more players will be able to enjoy the hundreds of different skills and combos that are being sorely underplayed at the moment.

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15 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

No it's not.

Once again, as per my disclaimer, I am referring to PvE as a whole and not just top-end content. All of the Signets are a lot more applicable throughout the game now, though Signet of Courage can be worse in a few cases, eg. against healing reduction effects like Agony.

However, Perfect Inscriptions is now worse. I also don't like that it's just a copy/paste of Ele's Written in Stone... except better. Of course yet another Elementalist mechanic just isn't as good as a directly-comparable one on Guardian.

You're referring to top-end content; I'm referring to the entire PvE experience. I'm also not saying Signets are universally better than comparable skills in those slots; just that they're a lot better than they were.

 

I agree with nearly everything you said.

The one thing I'm hoping ANet are careful with is over-buffing everything. The early game is already way too easy, to the point where my non-gamer partner gave GW2 a shot and was asking "Do I ever have to actually think about combat?", and this is compounded by high level players instantly obliterating everything during events in low level zones.

Being nerfed/buffed is relative to everything else. Just bringing up the power of all classes to the level of Firebrand, Mechanist, and Virtuoso won't immediately solve everything; sure, balance will be better, but now 90% of the game's combat is obsolete, so nothing will matter anyway. There needs to be challenging combat throughout the game, not only at the very top-end of endgame.

 

Radiance not being taken on one specific build in only top-end content, solely in groups of players who are trying to 100% min/max, is wayyyy too niche of a thing for this thread. I agree that the removal of Signet sharing with Perfect Inscriptions was the wrong way to go, but the whole point of this thread was discuss balance for the broader community throughout the entire PvE experience; not just min/maxed group play in top-end content.

This is the same thing with Arms on Warrior. I know that Arms isn't taken by min/maxing players in top-end content, but that is a very small slice of the game. Arms is still a great spec throughout the rest of the game.

The same thing again applies to Catalyst; ANet did nerf a single build for extremely skilled group play for the tippity-top-end 0.01%, but in doing so they also negatively affected probably 90% of other Catalyst players, who already weren't in a great spot.

 

What I would love to see is for ANet to focus on some very simple changes, exactly like what was done with Ranger weapons with the 1 July patch:

- If some weapons/skills/traits are overused and/or overpowered, just reduce their power by ~5%. Please refrain from nerfing skills 5 different ways in one patch.

- Likewise, for the many, many others that are underused/underpowered, please increase their power by ~5%.

- Post your reasoning behind each, eg. "Revenant Hammer is never used because it does no damage, so we've increased the damage on its auto attack by 5%, and the damage on its 2-5 skills by 10%. Also, we fixed the range bug on its 2 skill."

Keep doing this every few weeks until we have a bit more of an equilibrium without homogenising everything, and then focus on any reworks, if they're even required any more.

Please ANet, please give this a try. I know it's not "OMG LOOK AT WHAT CHANGED 😱" hype, but you will see more positive feedback about build variety over time, and more players will be able to enjoy the hundreds of different skills and combos that are being sorely underplayed at the moment.

I actually don't get your point regarding your comments to Ruisenior and me. First of having a meta build is not "100% min/max" but rather completely normal practice in any content except open world (and even there EVERYONE I know runs meta builds). Min-maxing would refer to using stat infusions and writs which are both quite costly and actually deserve that phrase or mechanical stuff like weapon stowing mid rotation to cancel skill aftercasts, compared to just running a different traitline which is free, easy and boosts your damage by way more than the stuff mentioned beforehand COMBINED. If you are familiar with the Pareto principle: Using a meta build falls in the 80 category, not in the 20. Meta builds aren't the ultimate top of the line but rather a great baseline to perform well and they are used by a massive part of the PvE community; the top 0.01% actually go further and modify these builds based on upcoming encounters to squeeze out a bit more instead of just running one build on everything, it doesn't work like that if you wanna perform at god-tier. But that looks to be your main argument against our comments here while it doesn't actually apply. The point you are making about it being "niche" and players not running it only applies to newer open world players where it - again - doesn't make any sense as these players don't care at all about their performance and believe me, from years and years of running even late game open world events with ArcDPS, the average players DPS sits at 4-8k DPS with 2-3 people carrying the event with their 30k+ DPS respectively. You actually think the average, "non-niche" player will notice a decrease of 5%? Even newbs wouldn't take Radiance on HFB as the only thing it offered was Signet Share pre-nerf and on DPS specs it should be clear to anyone that Perfect Inscriptions is a subpar choice as the signet actives just aren't that great. Of course the changes only target the end game instanced content as people there actually run top-of-the line builds and show their real performance which your answer completely dodged. There is no discussion to be had about any balance changes when you apparently focus the open world part as open world is clearly so easy you can go in with some of the worst builds imaginable and still clear the solo content no problem, while being carried in the harder, squad focused stuff...

And last but not least:

15 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

I'm also not saying Signets are universally better than comparable skills in those slots; just that they're a lot better than they were.

The first part of that statement is the point that actually matters though which renders the second part obsolete and basically confirms my point about paper buffs. As long as signets aren't worthwhile taking by people who care about their performance (see text above), it doesn't matter much how strong they are being made but rather create a twisted state of mind in other people who only see buffs and then start crying for nerfs which actually harm the class resulting in a factual net-negative performance. I know the following sentence will farm me confused reactions but I don't care: DPS guard specs are part of the large list of builds that need a damage buff after the recent patch!

Edited by Massimoni.9453
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11 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

I actually don't get your point regarding your comments to Ruisenior and me. First of having a meta build is not "100% min/max" but rather completely normal practice in any content except open world (and even there EVERYONE I know runs meta builds). Min-maxing would refer to using stat infusions and writs which are both quite costly and actually deserve that phrase or mechanical stuff like weapon stowing mid rotation to cancel skill aftercasts, compared to just running a different traitline which is free, easy and boosts your damage by way more than the stuff mentioned beforehand COMBINED.

Fair point; maybe I should have said "90% min/max" then. It's still definitely min/maxing; you're minimising your weaknesses and maximising your strengths. And sure, by this logic, no one really intentionally makes their character worse unless they're trying it out for shits and giggles, or just to challenge themselves, but running meta builds is certainly more min/max than just picking skills/traits because they seem fun and work well together.

11 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

If you are familiar with the Pareto principle: Using a meta build falls in the 80 category, not in the 20. Meta builds aren't the ultimate top of the line but rather a great baseline to perform well and they are used by a massive part of the PvE community; the top 0.01% actually go further and modify these builds based on upcoming encounters to squeeze out a bit more instead of just running one build on everything, it doesn't work like that if you wanna perform at god-tier. But that looks to be your main argument against our comments here while it doesn't actually apply.

I'm not saying meta builds are niche; I'm saying specifically optimising for every single trait and every single skill is niche.

None of us know exactly how many people run meta builds, but as someone who constantly plays a huge variety of OW content and Fractals, I can assure you it's not 80%. In T4 CMs, Raids, Strikes, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if 80% or more played meta builds, but again I'm referring to PvE as a whole.

11 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

The point you are making about it being "niche" and players not running it only applies to newer open world players where it - again - doesn't make any sense as these players don't care at all about their performance and believe me, from years and years of running even late game open world events with ArcDPS, the average players DPS sits at 4-8k DPS with 2-3 people carrying the event with their 30k+ DPS respectively. You actually think the average, "non-niche" player will notice a decrease of 5%? Even newbs wouldn't take Radiance on HFB as the only thing it offered was Signet Share pre-nerf and on DPS specs it should be clear to anyone that Perfect Inscriptions is a subpar choice as the signet actives just aren't that great.

Most players care about performance to some degree. While I don't see 80%+ pure meta builds in most content, I do notice when a Revenant is using a Hammer, or an Ele is using a Staff, or a Warrior is using a Rifle - these stand out because they're so rare. I would say that these weapons (and other skills/traits) are so noticeably bad that, even to more casual players, they're just not worth running.

Newbs wouldn't have a clue what HFB is, nor would it be clear to them what dps specs should run. Unless you consider a "newb" to be something other than a new player? It sounds like you're lumping newbs, casuals, and midcore players all in one classification of "none of this matters".

11 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Of course the changes only target the end game instanced content as people there actually run top-of-the line builds and show their real performance which your answer completely dodged. There is no discussion to be had about any balance changes when you apparently focus the open world part as open world is clearly so easy you can go in with some of the worst builds imaginable and still clear the solo content no problem, while being carried in the harder, squad focused stuff...

Wait, which answer did I completely dodge?

Balance definitely does affect OW; it affects everything in the game. Sure, you can just "git gud" and beat most OW content in Masterwork gear, but... you can also beat Raids under level 80. So where do you draw the line?

11 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

The first part of that statement is the point that actually matters though which renders the second part obsolete and basically confirms my point about paper buffs. As long as signets aren't worthwhile taking by people who care about their performance (see text above), it doesn't matter much how strong they are being made but rather create a twisted state of mind in other people who only see buffs and then start crying for nerfs which actually harm the class resulting in a factual net-negative performance. I know the following sentence will farm me confused reactions but I don't care: DPS guard specs are part of the large list of builds that need a damage buff after the recent patch!

I think we're going a bit off topic here. Dps Guardians may need buffs in top-end content, but what I'm asking for is to address the worst-off first:

The main point I wanted to convey was that the buffs to underused and underpowered Ranger weapons were simple, yet effective, for all of PvE. I hope to see more of these, as they provide more options for different builds even if they're not necessarily BiS. There's basically always going to be an optimal build or two, but that doesn't mean everything else is useless and should be left forgotten.

It would be beneficial to the vast majority of players for ANet to look at weapons, skills, and traits that are underperforming/underused, and buff their numbers a bit, as I believe this will take less effort than reworks, while still providing a very positive effect overall.

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14 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

Fair point; maybe I should have said "90% min/max" then. It's still definitely min/maxing; you're minimising your weaknesses and maximising your strengths. And sure, by this logic, no one really intentionally makes their character worse unless they're trying it out for shits and giggles, or just to challenge themselves, but running meta builds is certainly more min/max than just picking skills/traits because they seem fun and work well together.

Imo meta builds are still even way below the 90% mark you set here. If you go by your logic every single thing you do to improve anything would be min/maxing like e.g. replacing your blue gear with green gear. I view this aspect differently in that min/maxing actually starts AFTER you reached a logical baseline (which for me sits at at least full exotic + meta build) and extends beyond what an "average" (if we are talking about raids aka the mode where balancing is primarily targetted here the average player is leagues above the average open world enjoyer) player would do.

 

14 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

None of us know exactly how many people run meta builds, but as someone who constantly plays a huge variety of OW content and Fractals, I can assure you it's not 80%. In T4 CMs, Raids, Strikes, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if 80% or more played meta builds, but again I'm referring to PvE as a whole.

I think you misunderstood the 80/20 part. It doesn't refer to 80% of the playerbase using meta builds (as they certainly aren't that many) but rather the fact that 80% of the total (here: Benchmark DPS values) can be achieved by 20% of the "investment". Get yourself full exotic gear, slot the meta setup and get at least the majority of the rotation right and you will most likely be 80% of your way to the benchmark. The last 20% are where it gets hard and takes 80% of the effort: Full ascended, potentially writs, aftercast cancelling through weapon stowing, perfect rotations etc. which is way harder than the "baseline" but rewards you with way less comparatively and this 20% is where in my opinion min/maxing actually sits, not in the 80% part.

 

14 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

Balance definitely does affect OW

Of course it affects it, but it doesn't center around it. For an actual effect on open world gameplay the content itself would have to be way harder than it currently is. As an example it wouldn't matter if they reduced Deadeyes rifle damage by 5% as the mobs would still die in a single skill use. Balance patches rightfully target the top end as there things start to become very delicate and actually change things in a big scale.

 

14 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

Most players care about performance to some degree.

Personally I disagree or your "some degree" sits very low. Even remotely caring about your DPS would involve installing ArcDPS in my book and you can't tell me that people who have ArcDPS and therefore see that they are sitting at 10-20% of the top DPS but don't change anything, care at all. And the sad truth from factual and empirical data of many end game meta events is that the vast majority of people (often >75% of the squad) perform terribly compared to the easily achieveable 80%, numbers don't lie. The great thing about ArcDPS is that you can also see how the damage was accumulated and believe me or not: Almost everybody doing those kind of low DPS numbers is pretty much only auto attacking.

Personally I'd say you can play what you want in open world, be it personally created fun builds or defensive stats, it doesn't affect me in such a crazy negative way as it would in instanced content (reason being OW is so easy that the 2-3 people carrying the other 47-48 are enough to complete events no problem) but then please don't go ahead and say that you care about your performance when you play like that (I don't mean you personally here btw).

14 hours ago, SponTen.1267 said:

I hope to see more of these, as they provide more options for different builds even if they're not necessarily BiS. There's basically always going to be an optimal build or two, but that doesn't mean everything else is useless and should be left forgotten.

Completely with you on this one. There are many weapons that are just borderline useless atm and deserve some reworks. What I DON'T want to see however and what ruined many games for me is when they change it in a way where your choices don't matter anymore and everything does exactly the same. Some weapons are just meant to be support and therefore don't need to compete with pure DPS stuff. Also history has shown that ANet isn't exactly the best at keeping things at an equal level seeing how the vast majority of changes go too far in either direction, as we actually see with Ranger right now. Everyone I see playing it does so with Axe mainhand as it's simply higher DPS AND ranged, rendering Dagger and Sword basically obsolete to my knowledge when caring about performance? I want to see uniqueness in different things which Guild Wars did quite good so far but it seems they wan't to make things too similar with basically every build getting either Quickness or Alacrity lately.

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On 7/26/2022 at 4:43 AM, Massimoni.9453 said:

Meta builds aren't the ultimate top of the line but rather a great baseline to perform well and they are used by a massive part of the PvE community

ANet has, in the past, said or implied otherwise. Meta builds are used by a relatively small minority of the playerbase. It can seem like a larger number if you primarily play with or around them.

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2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It can seem like a larger number if you primarily play with or around them.

Yeah that might be the case, I should have specified that the statement largely excluded open world.

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

ANet has, in the past, said or implied otherwise.

Do you perhaps have an example on hand?

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1 minute ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Yeah that might be the case, I should have specified that the statement largely excluded open world.

Do you perhaps have an example on hand?

Take that with a grain of salt if you like as the time it would take to find the post where a dev mentioned how large a percentage of the playerbase never even select traits, or use dropped gear, would be prohibitive. 

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19 hours ago, Massimoni.9453 said:

Imo meta builds are still even way below the 90% mark you set here. If you go by your logic every single thing you do to improve anything would be min/maxing like e.g. replacing your blue gear with green gear. I view this aspect differently in that min/maxing actually starts AFTER you reached a logical baseline (which for me sits at at least full exotic + meta build) and extends beyond what an "average" (if we are talking about raids aka the mode where balancing is primarily targetted here the average player is leagues above the average open world enjoyer) player would do.

 

I think you misunderstood the 80/20 part. It doesn't refer to 80% of the playerbase using meta builds (as they certainly aren't that many) but rather the fact that 80% of the total (here: Benchmark DPS values) can be achieved by 20% of the "investment". Get yourself full exotic gear, slot the meta setup and get at least the majority of the rotation right and you will most likely be 80% of your way to the benchmark. The last 20% are where it gets hard and takes 80% of the effort: Full ascended, potentially writs, aftercast cancelling through weapon stowing, perfect rotations etc. which is way harder than the "baseline" but rewards you with way less comparatively and this 20% is where in my opinion min/maxing actually sits, not in the 80% part.

 

Of course it affects it, but it doesn't center around it. For an actual effect on open world gameplay the content itself would have to be way harder than it currently is. As an example it wouldn't matter if they reduced Deadeyes rifle damage by 5% as the mobs would still die in a single skill use. Balance patches rightfully target the top end as there things start to become very delicate and actually change things in a big scale.

 

Personally I disagree or your "some degree" sits very low. Even remotely caring about your DPS would involve installing ArcDPS in my book and you can't tell me that people who have ArcDPS and therefore see that they are sitting at 10-20% of the top DPS but don't change anything, care at all. And the sad truth from factual and empirical data of many end game meta events is that the vast majority of people (often >75% of the squad) perform terribly compared to the easily achieveable 80%, numbers don't lie. The great thing about ArcDPS is that you can also see how the damage was accumulated and believe me or not: Almost everybody doing those kind of low DPS numbers is pretty much only auto attacking.

Personally I'd say you can play what you want in open world, be it personally created fun builds or defensive stats, it doesn't affect me in such a crazy negative way as it would in instanced content (reason being OW is so easy that the 2-3 people carrying the other 47-48 are enough to complete events no problem) but then please don't go ahead and say that you care about your performance when you play like that (I don't mean you personally here btw).

Completely with you on this one. There are many weapons that are just borderline useless atm and deserve some reworks. What I DON'T want to see however and what ruined many games for me is when they change it in a way where your choices don't matter anymore and everything does exactly the same. Some weapons are just meant to be support and therefore don't need to compete with pure DPS stuff. Also history has shown that ANet isn't exactly the best at keeping things at an equal level seeing how the vast majority of changes go too far in either direction, as we actually see with Ranger right now. Everyone I see playing it does so with Axe mainhand as it's simply higher DPS AND ranged, rendering Dagger and Sword basically obsolete to my knowledge when caring about performance? I want to see uniqueness in different things which Guild Wars did quite good so far but it seems they wan't to make things too similar with basically every build getting either Quickness or Alacrity lately.

Apologies for any misunderstandings I had, and thank you for the discussions! I know OW may seem easy to you, and it may seem that people who play mostly OW content wouldn't notice any balance changes anyway, but I definitely notice the changes and I notice more people playing with recently-buffed weapons when I run through OW content. It does, imo, make a difference, and I hope to see more of these changes.

18 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

ANet has, in the past, said or implied otherwise. Meta builds are used by a relatively small minority of the playerbase. It can seem like a larger number if you primarily play with or around them.

This is what I suspected/have read somewhere; I just can't find any sources. And it's why I specified in my disclaimer that I was referring to PvE in general, not just the top-end (Fractals, Raids, Strikes, etc); I knew people would say OW doesn't matter, people who play it won't notice, etc. But I don't think it's the case.

Overall, I think we'd need a long time to define all our terms and discuss our reasonings behind those definitions, but in the end, it seems that we can at least both agree that there are a bunch of underused/underpowered weapons and skills that need buffs. I think our priorities differ, but if ANet keeps up with regular balance patches, we may actually get there sometime within the next 6 months.

Aaaand it looks like ANet kind of agrees! Really, really stoked to see more changes like this 🙂

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