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Can devs make something new and stop changing the old. [Merged]


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4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I like the rework. The old one was kinda embarassing.

As in, “I didn’t really need to see inside the head of whoever modeled that,” embarassing.

From a pure lore standpoint, why did the Queen’s engineers decide over-the-top fembot was the way to go, and why did she give approval to the design?

I mean, maybe queen is into them. We have a running joke with friends that all the mesmers in story are lesbians. Because most of them are anyway.

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2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I am one of the voices which for years has called for improving the older content so I am more inclined to think that these model changes have little to nothing to do with and see it more as what Anet claims it is.. simply bringing an older model upto a more modern standard, which is what they just did with 3 world bosses as well.

"removing sexualizations of female characters"   "bringing an older model up to a more modern standard"

literally the same thing when it serves no other purpose than visual changes.

the only thing it could possibly refer too is clipping. but anet and caring about clipping models? HA! talk to charr mains once in a while, they can sing a 8 hour aria about clipping models and armor. 

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2 hours ago, Saranos.9703 said:

Dude, I really can't be bothered arguing with you on this point anymore. The transistion from temporary content that few people had the chance to play that lasted about 2 weeks to permanent is when things like this get reviewed/updated. Could they have kept the old tonic the way it was and been fine: yes. Do I understand why they would choose to update the forms in the story: also yes.

i understand why as well ( and my understanding is probably more accurate). doesn't mean its a good reason at all nor should it be defended.

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57 minutes ago, Mutisija.5017 said:

i truly hope this is sarcasm, because... thinking that its "woke" or "political correctness" to nuke pair of metal tits from robots that havent been relevant since the story section they were made for... is concerning.

If it was 20 years ago, it would have been religous right doing this, it was even parodied in the Simpson episode "Itchy and Scratchy and Marge". Now we have the pseudo religous left mimicking censorship of the past under the guise of body positivity and other diversity inclusion equity dogma. 

Just update the mechanics and not the art. This was the policy prior to 2021. Fractals inspired by ls1 had the same art assets as when they launched back in 2012 and 2013, but they modernized the mechanics. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mutisija.5017 said:

i truly hope this is sarcasm, because... thinking that its "woke" or "political correctness" to nuke pair of metal tits from robots that havent been relevant since the story section they were made for... is concerning.

Well... what is it then? 

Keep in mind that the watchknight MK I and watchknight MK II was *two different combat tonics*. 

You already had the "nuked" version. You had a choice. Heck they could have added more ways to get the "nuked" version. They could have kept both - it's not like it was in common use. They still havent made combat tonics usable since they dont work with mounts. But they didnt keep both. 

Why did they intentionally merge it to just one "nuked" tonic? 

For what reason would you REMOVE such content? 

Would anyone want all the armor pieces showing sidekittens, kittenwindows, cleavage, midriffs, naked legs or heaven forbid bare ankles to be changed and covered up after 10 years rather than just having new fancy versions of that armor? 

And if these armors where changed... what would you call it?

Progress?

Edited by Dawdler.8521
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Protip to Anet: People only play FFXIV for the lewd outfits and mods. If you make this game into FFXIV, while also removing all the lewd outfits, you're no longer going to attract the FFXIV crowd you so desperately want.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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19 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Huh. Ok. Looks like they made it more realistic representation of female body. Struggling to see that as "censored."

Well then, sorry ladies around the world -apparently if you have boobs, you're not realistic. 🙃

Not that I care about that change, but throwing "it's a more realistic representation!" left and right, including situations like this one is nothing more than throwing cheap phrases that just aren't true. Remove bobs or unrealistic! Ridiculous. 🤦‍♂️ 

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29 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. Changing skins does absolutely nothing about that however.

They've done alot more for the game recently than just changing some skins, (well, except Warrior banners, but we won't get into that). They even had Tara come back and voice some new lines for Scarlet.

 

This is just being singled out as the one thing they did bad when they alot worse things, (balance), has no effect on the actual game beyond that while other people are suffering in their daily gameplay from certain decisions, and also ignores all the good that's been done as well (like the return of LWS1, the Fractal QoLs and the Vindicator change). All-in-all going on and on about censorship ever since End of Dragons dropped just looks very strange given all the other things in the game when those issues aren't even 1% of the whole.

 

If they really cared about censorship Human lightly-armored females wouldn't still be walking around in T3 Cultural armor. Someone even said "this is why the starter armor was removed" when the reason was since it looked so good it shouldn't be a newbie armor. (They didn't even remove it, they just kept it at a higher level more appropriate for its quality.) Similarly, Human female idle animations were removed due to being buggy and their hands going through their body and such, in an era where clipping was handled very aggressively by the player base, and it was never added back in because the animator was always put on other jobs.

 

I could go on, as someone who actually paid attention to anything over the last nine years instead of just coming up with hyperbole to explain why certain changes were made.

 

The Reddit thread on this issue had like 500 posts (and its like, the 3rd one since Twisted Marionette?) meanwhile someone tries to talk about how to do something like fix Warrior banners and you're lucky if you get 50 posts, then players wonder why we can't get the devs to listen to any feedback.

 

The reality is the bulk of feedback is sensationalist and creates a sea of what is effectively spam to sort through. Personal obsessions with non-issues that don't affect the greater playerbase.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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8 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Didn't play the new version yet, but during original run it was literally "hey guys, lemme showcase you newest krytan defenders that will replace human troops on our frontlines so people no longer need to die to defend kryta, and we will do now practical demonstration too!"

They were NOT meant as "literally" dummies for smashing. They were NOT "repurposed" for white Mantle attack during S3, that was first battleready deployment we saw within story, a deployment that had been delayed due to MK1 watchknights getting stolen and turned into clockwork monstrocities by Scarlet - so obviously when your new main combat golem proves suspecible to this sort of shenanigans, you get it back to the design board, and see how to make sure it no longer is vulnerable like that, which obviously delays actuall deployment. Also on additional note - before MK2 watchknights got ready to deploy AN has moved out of the idea of doing "living world" in the way LWS1 did, so even if they got "in lore" deployed sooner to the frontlines, we would not see it easilly, due to the whole "maps frozen in time" shtick.

Both of you are right, technically.

The Watchknights were designed to be "Kryta's new defenders" which ended up being delayed massively due to Scarlet's hijacking and public disaproval until the White Mantle attack as you mention, but during the Jubilee, they were also designed specifically for the celebration to be easily beaten by contestants in a non-fatal battle scenario (and this situation repeats for Festival of the Four Winds).

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7 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I am one of the voices which for years has called for improving the older content so I am more inclined to think that these model changes have little to nothing to do with "removing sexualisations of female characters" and see it more as what Anet claims it is.. simply bringing an older model upto a more modern standard, which is what they just did with 3 world bosses as well.

I am all for updating old models with improvements... if that's what ArenaNet actually claimed they were doing.

What the update notes actually say is:

  • Updated the models used by Watchknights and Twisted Nightmares to be consistent with changes to the Twisted Marionette.

Which... Well, a few issues there. First off, the Twisted Marionette itself was never explained why it got a model update - was it to "bringing an older model up to a more modern quality standard"? If so, why didn't they fix the corpse of the Marionette in Lornar's Pass? It's still the original. Which is issue #2. And I think the Marionette that pops up in The Departing is also the original mode (I'd have to double check that). Because of this, it felt like it was presented to be a new model simply because the new Marionette world boss is actually in the Mists, representing a Marionette that won the battle according to the Mists Stranger. Meaning that it wasn't the Marionette from Season 1, lorewise, and the new model appeared to represent that.

Which leads to issue #3: it's a bit weird to proclaim "creating consistency" with something that... isn't what they're saying they're being consistent with, in technicality.

 

So by their own wording, ArenaNet didn't update the Watchknight model "to improve texture quality and model detail" (their wording on the 3 world bosses), but rather "to be consistent with changes to the Twisted Marionette" which in of itself has now become inconsistent by removing the implication that the new model was for a "different" Marionette.

 

Ironic.

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22 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I don't think its censoring at all,

 

A comment I saw was that maybe it's related to Steam upcoming release, as the old watchknight mark 1 model had prominent kitten-cheeks, as well as visible nipple like items on the breast area.

Maybe they looked at the old model, with the half-exposed weird clockwork breasts, the rounded, forward belly and the hips/behind area and went.

"This kinda is a weird choice for a war robot. How about we make it a bit more study looking and armored."

 

Still, it's absolutely amusing to see the amount of hate/crazy over this change. It's kinda interesting to see people go out and scream about the fact the war robot who is most often seen under a mesmer glamour these days... lost the T and A.

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They should also make the female armors more realistic IMO. No woman would go into combat with something like a winged armor. All armors with exposed thighs or bellies should be redone. The ornate guild armor and the Devout armor are on point and something we would realistically see women wear in battle. 

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34 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

If I am thinking of the same incident, that's a strange way to describe what happened. I would characterize it as more like: someone who has probably been talked down to professionally many times because of their gender may have overreacted in that instance, seeing shadows, where disrespect was never intended. And got thrown under the bus because it was very public and made the company look bad.

Calling it stuff like sjw is going for an easy buzzword over trying to investigate the material context of what's happening.

I would not say that the persons reply to her would be anything to blow up over tho.

Deroir said  -Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree slightly.

Then shared shared a three-tweet explanation of how narrative design influences player expression in the sort of games that the developer was making.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Price

Edit

The reply he/she got was if he would have said -hey sweetcheeks this is how you do this crap

Edited by Linken.6345
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11 hours ago, ShroomOneUp.6913 said:

"removing sexualizations of female characters"   "bringing an older model up to a more modern standard"

literally the same thing when it serves no other purpose than visual changes.

Absolutely not the same thing.

And in that context the term "modern standard" is grossly overused and wrongly as well.
I can guarantee you that the majority of people overall would prefer the more sexualised character designs in just about every medium.

And those of us who don't particularly care for stuff like that (myself included) are in fact a very small minority.

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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So by their own wording, ArenaNet didn't update the Watchknight model "to improve texture quality and model detail" (their wording on the 3 world bosses), but rather "to be consistent with changes to the Twisted Marionette" which in of itself has now become inconsistent by removing the implication that the new model was for a "different" Marionette.

It's a fair point, especially if it's not the same specific Marionette from season 1.

Thus it begs the question, Why didn't they update the model and keep the original design?
Hence this thread  pretty much.

Do the new design choices also affect other Twisted enemies in other content like Fractals?
I've not checked myself but it would be strange if they didn't.

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3 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

They should also make the female armors more realistic IMO. No woman would go into combat with something like a winged armor. All armors with exposed thighs or bellies should be redone. The ornate guild armor and the Devout armor are on point and something we would realistically see women wear in battle. 

Historically... we didn't see women in battle.  Also something to note is there are historic instances of men fighting in wars without wearing any pants, or even wearing anything at all.  You've got to admire the stones on the guys who charged into battle with a sword, shield, and quite literally nothing else.  The pants-less versions worked in sword fights because it is very easy to retract the legs and present the point to an opponent.  So long as they were trained not to keep a leg forward, they were fairly safe to wear only upper-body armor.

The example that I like to go to is Bull Fighters.  Bull fighters, even the few women who do it, fight an animal that weighs half a ton wearing ceremonial garments.  If history were a little different, we could have bull fighters wearing little to nothing at all.  Largely because full plate mail does nothing against an animal that weighs 1000 pounds.  Compare this to the size of the creatures we fight in GW2, and you'll realize that old-timey knight armor would offer no protection against something like a Karka or a Golem.  

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I have always hated the original design of the Watchknights,  not least because they have boobs and cleavage made of gears, fricking creepy.....but I still don't like that Anet has gone and retroactively changed past content like this.  Its a bad precedent.

Edited by The Greyhawk.9107
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33 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I have always hated the original design of the Watchknights,  not least because they have boobs and cleavage made of gears, fricking creepy.....but I still don't like that Anet has gone and retroactively changed past content like this.  Its a bad precedent.

They changed a singular model. It's not like they've gone and erased the star-born outfit from the game, or the light armor which the top is basically a bra. Or removed Profane armor. So there explicitly isn't censoring being done because "OMG too adult looking."

People are very much over-reacting to this tweak, and some of the reasons given are quite interesting to display in a public manner.

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17 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

They changed a singular model. It's not like they've gone and erased the star-born outfit from the game, or the light armor which the top is basically a bra. Or removed Profane armor. So there explicitly isn't censoring being done because "OMG too adult looking."

People are very much over-reacting to this tweak, and some of the reasons given are quite interesting to display in a public manner.

You've taken missing the point to an art form.

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