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WvW ballance 19/7


Sansar.1302

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2 hours ago, Bizgurk.5639 said:

It also might be worth to mention that Righteous Instinct grants a 40% increase to Critical Chance in PvP whereas it’s only 25% in WvW.

 

If they’d treat Willbender in WvW like they did in PvP he might do a bit more damage and be less mobile.

WvW has way higher power/precision/ferocity than pvp. You'll never do more damage in pvp than in wvw. 

That's also the reason for less crit chance on wvw, you'll reach 100% easier in wvw due to more stats. 

@Arolandis.8360every prof has access to those. Which means a broken spec will always fare better than a non broken spec.

As for celestial/trailblazer, those stats shouldn't even exist in competitive settings. 

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1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

WvW has way higher power/precision/ferocity than pvp. You'll never do more damage in pvp than in wvw. 

That's also the reason for less crit chance on wvw, you'll reach 100% easier in wvw due to more stats. 

@Arolandis.8360every prof has access to those. Which means a broken spec will always fare better than a non broken spec.

As for celestial/trailblazer, those stats shouldn't even exist in competitive settings. 

while your words make sense.... your still wrong here.

Willbender in pvp will produce more damage, simply because of the fact that everyone is having toughness in WvW. Just very few people play full glass. most people will run Celestial, Trailblazer, minstrel...

The only people still rocking glass power are thiefs,Sicemrangers and Zergdps.

meanwhile in pvp... literally noone has toughness. Maybe people running dolyak rune.. and your occasional demolisher amulet... but thats it.

 

 

Edited by Sahne.6950
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27 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

while your words make sense.... your still wrong here.

Willbender in pvp will produce more damage, simply because of the fact that everyone is having toughness in WvW. Just very few people play full glass. most people will run Celestial, Trailblazer, minstrel...

The only people still rocking glass power are thiefs,Sicemrangers and Zergdps.

meanwhile in pvp... literally noone has toughness. Maybe people running dolyak amulet.. and your occasional demolisher amulet... but thats it.

 

But it isn't just willbender who has to deal with toughness.

Yes, it might not be the most broken spec right now - mainly because it isn't running cele most of the time - but it still is pretty strong, especially if you compare to other non cele builds. And it isn't so much the dmg that makes is strong - it is the amount of survivability on a full dmg build (kinda an eod issue tho, pretty much all of the new specs have too much sustain).

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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20 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But it isn't just willbender who has to deal with toughness.

Yes, it might not be the most broken spec right now - mainly because it isn't running cele most of the time - but it still is pretty strong, especially if you compare to other non cele builds. And it isn't so much the dmg that makes is strong - it is the amount of survivability on a full dmg build (kinda an eod issue tho, pretty much all of the new specs have too much sustain).

Lets rate it in tiers to get more clarity about what we are speaking here.

Willbender in pvp is S-Tier.

While it is at best A-Tier in wvw.

its not bad... but its not even in the top 10 builds for smallscale/roaming.

LETS BE REAL HERE! ANY powerbuild is suffering from everyone having toughness. Thats why, in my books, NO POWERBUILD will  reach S-Tier in wvw roaming. period.

maybe sicemSLB... and thief.... but thats it.   But slb is good cuz of the insane range BRRR and thief simply because it can abuse stealth. But willbender... is just another powerspec in wvw tickling any good celebuild.  IM SORRY:C

Whenever i see a power Willbender i am already thinking about if i am going to throw a siege at him or just jump. (i am sorry, being toxic is the only thing keeping me sane in wvw atm xD)

Willbender is not bad... but why would you play it if you could just play celestial [insert just about any spec]?

Edited by Sahne.6950
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1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

WvW has way higher power/precision/ferocity than pvp. You'll never do more damage in pvp than in wvw. 

That's also the reason for less crit chance on wvw, you'll reach 100% easier in wvw due to more stats. 

@Arolandis.8360every prof has access to those. Which means a broken spec will always fare better than a non broken spec.

As for celestial/trailblazer, those stats shouldn't even exist in competitive settings. 

 

I still don't agree that Willbender is broken, when there are far more oppressive classes in WvW.

Why shouldn't Celestial/Trailblazer be in competitive? Trailblazer in particular is designed the way that it is because conditions take time to tick, and are countered by cleanses, so you need the extra toughness/vitality to buy you time.

Celestial is only good if you build for might stacking. Without might, it's pretty weak. A more focused build is still better. And WvW is more of a sandbox than a competitive mode. People can experiment with what they want and if it works, why spoil their fun? Why not make your own builds that counter theirs and have your own fun?

Either way this is a player vs. player game mode, there's a lot of lrn2play involved, and people complaining need to realize that with all the options available in WvW there are ways to counter classes you're struggling with. Hotkey seperate builds so if you spot one you're struggling with you can swap to it. Get creative.

Other classes need buffs regardless, they do, and composition still matters, but WvW is way more balanced than people realize.

In other games you don't get nearly as many options to deal with "broken" classes.

Edit: There's also way too much running in WvW for people to not have some survivability and sustain.

Edited by Arolandis.8360
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22 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Lets rate it in tiers to get more clarity about what we are speaking here.

Willbender in pvp is S-Tier.

While it is at best A-Tier in wvw.

its not bad... but its not even in the top 10 builds for smallscale/roaming.

A-Tier might be accurate, but i have a hard time thinking about 10 specs i'd put into S-Tier, so being pretty close to top 10 is still pretty strong when considerng how many possible specs/builds there are.

Would definitely put it above pretty much any other power build rn. Just don't build it like a condi guard ...

Quote

Willbender is not bad... but why would you play it if you could just play celestial [insert just about any spec]?

It's not like you can't play cele wb. Might be one of the more underrated builds tbh ...

19 minutes ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

 

Celestial is only good if you build for might stacking. Without might, it's pretty weak.

 

1. Many builds have a lot of might, so that's no downside and 2. this doesn't even apply to all builds.

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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1 minute ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

 

It's fun to steal with Absorbtion Sigil.

That's true. But it's not like cele builds can't run absorbtion or you can't steal boons from other builds (and it only works if there is no stability).

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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17 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

It's not like you can't play cele wb. Might be one of the more underrated builds tbh ...

celeWB is not that valueable. any build relying on 1 condition and 1 condition only is not going to pass the stage of being a noobstomperbuild.

having trouble finding 10 builds? here is builds that will kick a powerWB´s kitten: Celestial mirage,Celestial virtuoso, Celestial scrapper, Celestial tempest, Celestialweaver, Celestial catalyst, Celestial Firebrand, Celestial Harbinger, Core condi necro, trapper ranger, specter, Deadeye, Boonbeast, celerenegade

that is just 14 builds that i am playing and all of them will clap Willbender with their eyes closed. should i continue?

Dont get me wrong... its not BAD... but if we keep in mind what your probably going up against... its suddenly looks.... bad.

But i am glad to hear that you like the WB in wvw. You can be just about effective with anything. I am literalyl playing CoreFreshair... soo yeah 😄 dont be discouraged just because wb is by no means toptier.

 not being carried by your build, and actually winning because you played the engagement better is the most fun you will have in gw2... IMO.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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4 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

That's true. But it's not like cele builds can't run absorbtion or you can't steal boons from other builds (and it only works if there is no stability).

There's also the sigil of nullification. Revs in particular get a trait that strip stability.

I'm not suggesting this fixes everything. I'm just trying to show that there are different ways you could build for people you're struggling to beat.

Once you know what a person's build is weak to you can build for it, and swap to it with a hotkey if they're constantly giving you trouble.

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34 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

celeWB is not that valueable. any build relying on 1 condition and 1 condition only is not going to pass the stage of being a noobstomperbuild.

Burning is always valuable. Also i added "don't build it like a condi guard" (you might have missed it, i edited late), because unlike other cele guard specs cele wb should still focus on power dmg with burn spikes as extra on top of their great power dmg output (yes, even on cele, thanks to good dmg modifiers, loads of free crit chance and easy might stacking) instead of treating burning as their main dmg source.

Quote

having trouble finding 10 builds? here is builds that will kick a powerWB´s kitten: Celestial mirage,Celestial virtuoso, Celestial scrapper, Celestial tempest, Celestialweaver, Celestial catalyst, Celestial Firebrand, Celestial Harbinger, Core condi necro, trapper ranger, specter, Deadeye, Boonbeast, celerenegade

When i'm talking about roaming/small scale i'm not talking about dueling and like half of those builds are only good at that - a strict 1vs1 where both players commit to the fight (and likely stalemate each other - so what's the point even?). Also even in sPvP wb isn't that great at dueling.

WB has great mobility (hard to lockdown and hard to get away from), decent aoe dmg (both power and condi), good options for downstate management, good sustain, tons of boons - offensive and defensive, self and aoe. All of those things are very relevant for solo and small scale roaming. It does have a few weaknesses, namely melee only, no stealth, no boon rip and not the best cc, which does keep it from the absolute top, especially when solo. But putting builds than can get hard countered by simply utilizing movement keys, that are single target only or that can get locked down incredibly easy above wb, does not seem right.

32 minutes ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

I'm not suggesting this fixes everything. I'm just trying to show that there are different ways you could build for people you're struggling to beat.

Once you know what a person's build is weak to you can build for it, and swap to it with a hotkey if they're constantly giving you trouble.

I'm not struggeling because i'm abusing cele myself. But wouldn't it be nice if i could run other types of builds without handicapping myself?

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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10 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

 

 Burning is always valuable. Also i added "don't build it like a condi guard" (you might have missed it, i edited late), because unlike other cele guard specs cele wb should still focus on power dmg with burn spikes as extra on top of their great power dmg output (yes, even on cele, thanks to dmg modifiers, free crit chance and might) instead of treating buring as their main dmg source.

When i'm talking about roaming/small scale i'm not talking about dueling and like half of those builds are only good at that - a strict 1vs1 where both players commit to the fight (and likely stalemate each other - so what's the point even?).

WB has great mobility (hard to lockdown and hard to get away from), decent aoe dmg (both power and condi), good options for downstate management, good sustain, tons of boons - offensive and defensive, self and aoe. All of those things are very relevant for solo and small scale roaming. It does have a few weaknesses, namely melee only, no stealth, no boon rip and not the best cc, which does keep it from the absolute top, especially when solo. But putting builds than can get hard countered by simply utilizing movement keys, that are single target only or that can get locked down incredibly easy above wb, does not seem right.

I'm not struggeling because i'm abusing cele myself. But wouldn't it be nice if i could run other types of builds without handicapping myself?

solely good in strict 1v1s xDD 

whatever floats your boat i guess 😉

i am pretty sure i could bust your kitten,!!!!ingame!!!(i once got banned cuz i was saying that and didnt add that iwas speaking about the game obviously) even when your trying your hardest to run away... (<- nice gameplay and reason a class is supposed to be good btw)

I want to se you escape a Renegade that is spamming phasetraversal on you... GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

and celewb... is not good. period.

Anything with atleast medium sustain and cleanse... will NOT DIE to it. Sure you can bust noobs with it... but i am also going on 15 killingsprees with coreele.... does that make ele good? NOPE. With all the Weaknesspam and cleanse vomit in Wvw, you will find yourself hitting like a noodle rather fast. WB is cool and all... like i said... but there is a plethora of complete degenerate builds that wb can only dream of beating.

but again... whatever floats your boat 😉   I am playing things that are so far offmeta its not even funny. Ventari renegade and stuff... but i am not in the forums claiming its op or whatever. I play it silently and enjoy myself doing so.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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6 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I'm not struggeling because i'm abusing cele myself. But wouldn't it be nice if i could run other types of builds without handicapping myself?

 

It's not handicapping, it's strategizing. 😛

No one build is going to be able to handle everything. That's why you make multiple builds and swap to them as you need them (like dealing with a griefer).

I DO think Harbs need tuning though.

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12 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Anything with atleast medium sustain and cleanse... will NOT DIE to it. Sure you can bust noobs with it...

How does this not apply to half of the builds you posted?

Also do you really want to tell me mobility is not relevant for roaming?

(i don't need to run from a single cele renegade btw, i just kill it)

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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13 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

How does this not apply to half of the builds you posted?

they are vomiting conditions. whereas wb... is not doing it. Solely burn. Cleansing a single condition in wvw.... is laughably easy.

Also dont come around the corner saying its about the powerdamage. You are sitting under 190% crit i think. amirite? with... i think 1690 power.... W00W so much dumugyyy!!! but my impressive 10 stacks of Might will increase my damage... right? 🤡

we already figured that WB is at best A-Tier... and thats fine.

I am playing "what am i even doing with my life"-tier builds and i can make them work. Thats the fun of it.

Just enjoy the ride man. If people think Wb is bad... thats even better for you. You are having succes with it! thats awesome and all that matters!

No listing of: they can do this, and that, and this, and EVEN THIS. will change the fact that not a single Willbender has killed me in wvw yet. And i am playing a ton of wvw. I have had a few running away from me... but does that make willbender good? i dont think so^^

Edit: BROO you are NOT going to kill a celestialrenegade that is on the sameskillevel. NOT HAPPENING. we can test that for sure! just add me!

Edited by Sahne.6950
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13 hours ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

In WvW most power builds include more health, with other builds having toughness thrown in too (condi/celestial). We have a reinforcement buff for extra health and defense. Ascended -dmg% food is abundant. Every class has defensive traits and utilities they can utilize. Every class has access to more runes and sigils, not just Willbender.

So yes. It's balanced there.

Equal access to these things doesn't balance out builds that start off in different performance tiers.  If one build is A-tier and another is B-tier, buffing both the same amount does not put then in the same tier.

 

10 hours ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

How so? What are they doing that thieves, holosmiths, fresh air weavers (the good ones anyway), heralds, rangers (even untamed), etc. aren't doing?

Outrunning them.  While having solid damage and survivability.

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16 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

they are vomiting conditions. whereas wb... is not doing it. Solely burn. Cleansing a single condition in wvw.... is laughably easy.

Ah yes, all those fire weavers and firebrands vomiting condis that are not burning ... Also it doesn't even matter that much when it comes to burning, because even 1 or 2 ticks can deal significant dmg.

Quote

Also dont come around the corner saying its about the powerdamage. You are sitting under 190% crit i think. amirite? with... i think 1690 power.... W00W so much dumugyyy.🤡

More like 2,7k power, 100% crit chance, 205% crit dmg and plenty of skills with a modifier of 1,5 and above. But yea, won't deal any dmg ...

Also you seem to think i play wb - i don't and i have no idea how it would fair in a 1vs1 against cele renegade. But i'm confident it would do better in most 1vsX situations, because rev tends to struggle when getting focused by multiple players.

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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9 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Ah yes, all those fire weavers and firebrands vomiting condis that are not burning ... Also it doesn't even matter that much when it comes to burning, because even 1 or 2 ticks can deal significant dmg.

More like 2,7k power, 100% crit chance, 205% crit dmg and plenty of skills with a modifier of 1,5 and above. But yea, won't deal any dmg ...

you seriously have to explain to me how your gonna reach that with celestial? cuz i thought we are speaking about this....

while having these stats... your fullglasspower, and you are gonna melt to any of the builds that i told you. period.

why do we keep arguing? You are having fun with your spec. good for you.

if you really think its that good... maaybe i am wrong. just prove it. you can /add me and we can see^^

 

But i have had hundreds of fights against willbenders... and i have lost exactly 0 of those. Maybe you are the chosen one. idk tho.

good to hear that you are having fun. 

In pvp WB is/was absolutely bonkers... in wvw... not so much.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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Pack runes, 25 might, lots of crit and some ferocity from radiance traits, full cele gear. Just use the build editor if you don't belive me.

Also you seem to think i play wb - i don't and i have no idea how it would fair in a 1vs1 against cele renegade. But i'm confident it would do better in most 1vsX situations, because rev tends to struggle when getting focused by multiple players, wb does not to the same extent. Not saying cele rene is bad btw, one of the better builds out there for sure.

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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7 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Pack runes, 25 might, lots of crit and some ferocity from radiance traits, full cele gear. Just use the build editor if you don't belive me.

Also you seem to think i play wb - i don't and i have no idea how it would fair in a 1vs1 against cele renegade. But i'm confident it would do better in most 1vsX situations, because rev tends to struggle when getting focused by multiple players, wb does not to the same extent. Not saying cele rene is bad btw, one of the better builds out there for sure.

you should try Celerenegade with Salvationtree and ventari. It excells specifically in 1vx situations. Guildjen.com has the build. i also have a video of it on my YT if you want to check it out.

but like i said: you can tell me how good wb is all day long. its not going to change that i have literally NEVER died to one in WvW. Whereas i got onebanged by them in pvp multiple times.

it is what it is.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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51 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Equal access to these things doesn't balance out builds that start off in different performance tiers.  If one build is A-tier and another is B-tier, buffing both the same amount does not put then in the same tier.

 

Outrunning them.  While having solid damage and survivability.

Fair point, but what makes a class A-tier and what makes another one B-tier? Every class has a strong build available to them that can beat a Willbender. Is no class ever allowed to burst and run? Should thieves be deleted? Do you remember that building glassy makes you easy prey the moment you're CC'd? If a Willbender runs away because you're kicking it's kitten is it really any different than a thief? Why so much focus on Willbenders?

If they're built for power, they're basically dead without their mobility, like thieves, but without stealth access on top. Even Engineers have superspeed and stealth access, with ranged grenade spam, and rocket boots/rifle leap.

If they're built for celestial...eh, other classes do it better.

My point is basicially that I still don't think Willbenders need nerfs in WvW, regardless of what "tier" it is. (A-tier)

Edited by Arolandis.8360
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7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

WvW has way higher power/precision/ferocity than pvp. You'll never do more damage in pvp than in wvw. 

That's also the reason for less crit chance on wvw, you'll reach 100% easier in wvw due to more stats. 

@Arolandis.8360every prof has access to those. Which means a broken spec will always fare better than a non broken spec.

As for celestial/trailblazer, those stats shouldn't even exist in competitive settings. 

That's not what I meant. What I wanted to point out is if he had an additional 40% critchance in wvw then he would do more damage than what he does with 25%. And if he'd go over 100% then he could equip some Dragon Gear and trade Precision for Ferocity.

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