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Could we get "Trading" LFG category?


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45 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Really, it would give all the pvp potions/raids/strikes/legendaries sellers a place to advertise in without flooding regular LFG channels. It's such a minor effort solution for a massive QoL upgrade.

My understanding of ANet’s position is that while things like selling raid runs are not forbidden, they’re not supported. This protects them from people wanting them to police player trades.

If they create an official place for players to trade outside of the TP, it messes with their neutral “it’s on you if you get scammed” stance.

Edited by Gibson.4036
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1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

My understanding of ANet’s position is that while things like selling raid runs are not forbidden, they’re not supported. This protects them from people wanting them to police player trades.

If they create an official place for players to trade outside of the TP, it messes with their neutral “it’s on you if you get scammed” stance.

Just put a disclaimer in channel's description.

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In the search bar just type -sell

This is the best that can and will happen until Anet grows up and realizes no-one like spam and officially supports mass reporting and takes action against it. Right now they won't do anything even though it's painfully clear that it's not the intended use of the tool.

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2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I could see it for people selling raids/strikes (tho they prob don't want to explicitly encourage it), but for items... I thought they wouldn't want people selling items outside of the TP since it's dodging TP tax?

It is because selling raids/etc. is still setting up a group to do some specific content. Payment is an additional requirement but many groups have other requirements too.

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On 7/20/2022 at 7:18 PM, TexZero.7910 said:

In the search bar just type -sell

This is the best that can and will happen until Anet grows up and realizes no-one like spam and officially supports mass reporting and takes action against it. Right now they won't do anything even though it's painfully clear that it's not the intended use of the tool.

This, 100%. And thanks for the advise.

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On 7/20/2022 at 7:18 PM, TexZero.7910 said:

In the search bar just type -sell

This is the best that can and will happen until Anet grows up and realizes no-one like spam and officially supports mass reporting and takes action against it. Right now they won't do anything even though it's painfully clear that it's not the intended use of the tool.

It may not be strictly intended use of the tool, but (as Anet explained more than once) it's not exactly forbidden use of the tool either.

The best solution would be for Anet to make it so our filters get remembered when we close the LFG window. Then there would be no need to retype the anti-seller filters every time someone uses LFG

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I don't think ANet would ever implement this, as it would be a tacit acknowledgement that a lot of people would rather pay to skip content than play it.

Never good optics for a company that ostensibly makes content that people are supposed to enjoy playing.

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They explained why there will be no player to player trading during the beta, but I can't find the article. It was mainly to avoid scamming, as some items have the same icons and such stuff. You can get all the tradable items from the ah. If you want to trade items directly, the mail fills that gap, but it requires trust and if you don't trust the other person, it's safer to not trade with them. For the few people who don't like this system, there is the overflow trading company discord where direct trades can be negotiated. 

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An lfg for trading items should not happen - you are supposed to use the trading post. This feature to trade already exists. (All other trades are not supported. And trading such stuff in lfg should be reported - since it is an abouse of the lfg ... it does not look for groups to play ... instead it is for selling items = abuse.)

A thing that currently is allowed: Advertising guilds (has an extra tab) - which probably was a bit problematic in the past when some people might have felt annoyed by this and wanted such people to get banned. (But technically not an offense since the people advertising guilds also could have looked to play with someone in a group first bevor inviting to a guild.)

Then of course the thing with the raid sellers - they also advertise groups/squads ... to play with them (to get the raid clear) ...  where you have to pay money. For those could be a separate lfg tab. Ideally with the training/experienced thing a 3rd one "sellling".

But selling items in the description in an lfg party should always be reported if seen - since it is a clear abuse.

Edited by Luthan.5236
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On 7/20/2022 at 7:18 PM, TexZero.7910 said:

In the search bar just type -sell

This is the best that can and will happen until Anet grows up and realizes no-one like spam and officially supports mass reporting and takes action against it. Right now they won't do anything even though it's painfully clear that it's not the intended use of the tool.

Well, if lots of people do this then the sellers will just use different wording. Your solution, however, is still the best one. At least, most players don't read the forums, so there's that.

For Anet to step in and offer a solution, that's a lot more difficult than you think. In the end they're not doing anything that's reportable. It's not spam after all. They just create one message and put it in LFG. They're not spamming things over and over again. Perhaps a technical difference but the difference is there.

It may not be the intended use of the tool, but it's hard to set boundaries, especially since people will find ways around any rule that Anet sets.

 

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13 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, if lots of people do this then the sellers will just use different wording.

Why would they? They are advertising to those that do want to use their services, and to those that are unaware this kind of option exists. They are not advertising to people that do know about them and want to actively avoid seeing those LFGs, because those people won't be buying runs anyway.

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12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Why would they? They are advertising to those that do want to use their services, and to those that are unaware this kind of option exists. They are not advertising to people that do know about them and want to actively avoid seeing those LFGs, because those people won't be buying runs anyway.

You know, there is a trade channel in SWTOR. But some people refuse to use it and use the general channel just the same. I've spoken to a few to them with this exact argument, but these people just don't care. 

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8 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

You know, there is a trade channel in SWTOR. But some people refuse to use it and use the general channel just the same. I've spoken to a few to them with this exact argument, but these people just don't care. 

There's a difference between someone not looking in a trade channel, and someone actively filtering out certain keywords. The first person might belong to that "unaware" category, and as such can still possibly get interested.

Basically, if you were to make a separate Raid Sell LFG category, you can bet some ads would still pop up in the basic raid one. But i doubt that those raid selling groups would try to actively avoid filters. if anything, the messages they put up are so consistent filtering them out is really easy.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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It's actually pretty much standard conduct for any raid group advertising either their guild/raidgroup or selling in LFG to enter their guild tag including the square brackets in their description, meaning with -[ you can typically get rid of both of those at once. And as mentioned by the previous poster, these people have no incentive at all to kitten people off that are already actively avoiding their advertisement.

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51 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's a difference between someone not looking in a trade channel, and someone actively filtering out certain keywords. The first person might belong to that "unaware" category, and as such can still possibly get interested.

The thing is that the trade channel is on by default. So you actively have to turn it off to not see the messages in the trade channel, so by using general chat, you just annoy the people who actively turned it off so they wouldn't see the trade messages.

51 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Basically, if you were to make a separate Raid Sell LFG category, you can bet some ads would still pop up in the basic raid one. But i doubt that those raid selling groups would try to actively avoid filters. if anything, the messages they put up are so consistent filtering them out is really easy.

You doubt...well, reality tells me otherwise. Gold sellers, for example, in MMOs do everything they can to avoid filters, for example. You might filter out the word "sell" and they'll put "s.ell" or "WTS". It's easy to do for people. They are only consistent now because not a lot of people know about how you can filter terms out. I wasn't aware of this either btw.

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1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

The thing is that the trade channel is on by default. So you actively have to turn it off to not see the messages in the trade channel, so by using general chat, you just annoy the people who actively turned it off so they wouldn't see the trade messages.

You doubt...well, reality tells me otherwise. Gold sellers, for example, in MMOs do everything they can to avoid filters, for example. You might filter out the word "sell" and they'll put "s.ell" or "WTS". It's easy to do for people. They are only consistent now because not a lot of people know about how you can filter terms out. I wasn't aware of this either btw.

Gold sellers, yes. But those do not really care for their reputation, as it already is rock bottom. And they generally are trying to circumvent not player-made filters, but developer made ones.

Hint: It's been years, but so far i have yet to see even one raid selling guild trying to circumvent two most common filters.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It may not be strictly intended use of the tool, but (as Anet explained more than once) it's not exactly forbidden use of the tool either.

The best solution would be for Anet to make it so our filters get remembered when we close the LFG window. Then there would be no need to retype the anti-seller filters every time someone uses LFG

Oh i'm very aware it's of Anet's fence straddling policy. It's a bad one that adheres to bad precedent. Which is why i said they need to grow up.

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7 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Oh i'm very aware it's of Anet's fence straddling policy. It's a bad one that adheres to bad precedent. Which is why i said they need to grow up.

"Grow up" as in "officially legitimize selling, by offering a mechanics to manage it"? Or as in "tell players that they are not really free to set grouping restrictions as they like"? Personally i do not like either of those options, and i don;t think this kind of "growing up" is in any way positive.

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1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"Grow up" as in "officially legitimize selling, by offering a mechanics to manage it"? Or as in "tell players that they are not really free to set grouping restrictions as they like"? Personally i do not like either of those options, and i don;t think this kind of "growing up" is in any way positive.

They're free to set whatever grouping restrictions they want. Just not abuse a system that's clearly not designed for it. If they don't want to officially support it then they should leave it in the very same 3rd party tools realm like everything else.

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1 minute ago, TexZero.7910 said:

They're free to set whatever grouping restrictions they want. Just not abuse a system that's clearly not designed for it. If they don't want to officially support it then they should leave it in the very same 3rd party tools realm like everything else.

It may be an edge use, and not one developers thought of, but it still is within current LFG guidelines (which is "making a group with the limitations you want for the purpose of doing content"). What you are suggesting is dropping that "with the limitations you want" part and restrict it to only an allowed set of limitations. Which is opening Pandora's Box. If asking for compensation will stop being allowed, asking for other things (like showing KPs) might end up not being allowed either. What, then, banning people for not being willing to group with you and carry you?

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10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It may be an edge use, and not one developers thought of, but it still is within current LFG guidelines (which is "making a group with the limitations you want for the purpose of doing content"). What you are suggesting is dropping that "with the limitations you want" part and restrict it to only an allowed set of limitations.

"I'm not selling raids! I just ask for gold as a limitation of my group!"

"I did not murder him! I were simply testing how will a human heart interact with a kitchen knife when applied with force!"

Dude...

Quote

Which is opening Pandora's Box. If asking for compensation will stop being allowed, asking for other things (like showing KPs) might end up not being allowed either. What, then, banning people for not being willing to group with you and carry you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Edited by Valisha.8650
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