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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]


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Updated meta: July 2021

Here's what it would take to create near perfect build diversity across Core Engineer, Scrapper, and Holosmith in PvP primarily, but also keeping other game modes in mind.

Disclaimer, these are the changes I think are necessary to individually bring each choice to life - multiple changes together may not be balanced and aren't necessarily intended to work together.

This thread is a no power creep zone, that specifically means not raising the current meta PvP builds past their current limit.

 

Core Engineer:

 

General Changes: Friendly Projectile changes: Thrown Elixirs, Med Kits, these are now ALL unblockable.

 

Weapon Skills

 

1.) Pistol #1: Fragmentation shot: Is now an explosion. Fragmentation Shot now also applies bleeds on the 120 radius explosion in addition to the projectile. Decreased aftercast so an attack roughly fires every .5s.

2.) Pistol #2: Poison Dart Volley Is now piercing. Reduced cast time from 1.75s to 1.25s.

3.) Rifle #1 Hip Shot damage increased by 10%.

4.) Rifle #3: Added ammunition, maximum 2 ammo, 2s ICD between ammo use.

 

Kits

 

1.) Toolkit #1: Damage combo increased 15%. Thwack reduced from 1s to .75s.

1.) Toolkit #2. Box of Nails increased Radius from 240 to 300. Cripple increases from 2s to 3s per pulse. Cast time reduced from 3/4s to 1/2s

2.) Toolkit #3: Pry Bar Damage increased by 15%.

3.) Elixir Gun #2: Increased number of bounces by 1.

4.) Elixir Gun #3: Poison duration increased from 2 to 4 seconds. No longer tracks targets, rather fires in a frontal cone.

5.) Flamethrower #1: Reduced amount of strikes over the cast from 10 to 3. Each strike causes burning, like how the 10th hit previously did. 

6.) Flamethrower #4: Napalm, increased burning from 3s to 5s.

7.) Flamethrower toolbelt: Incendiary Ammo cooldown decreased from 50s to 30s to be more in line with push toward slow, ramping damage changes.

8.) Flamethrower #5: Smoke vent, this skill has two ammunition. (2s ICD between charges.)

9.) Med Kit #2: Bandage blast, projectiles now track to allies in the area of effect.

10.) Bomb Kit #2: Fire Bomb's first pulse applies 2 burning instead of one in PvP and WvW

11.) Bomb Kit #5: All Glue Bomb pulses will immobilize enemies, not just the initial pulse - however, each target may only be affected by the immobilize once. Cripple condition changed into slow.

12.) Bomb Kit Toolbelt: Big Ol' Bomb now unblockable, suggestion by Zex Anthon.8673.

 

 

Turret Related Changes:

 

1.) General Turret changes:

  • Removed functionality to pick up turrets & reduce cooldown.
  • Turrets no longer auto-attack.
  • Cooldown starts immediately on use so it's not punishing to keep the turret alive.
  • Turret duration reduced to 10s before auto-detonating.
  • Turrets deliver a short point-blank knockback on death (120 distance).
  • Thumper Turret reduced from 40s to 30s cd.
  • Rocket Turret reduced from 40s to 30s cd.
  • Rifle Turret increased cooldown from 20s to 30s cd.
  • Flame Turret increased cooldown from 20s to 30s cd.
  • Thumper Turret will only Knock up foes once when placed, instead of twice.
  • Flame Turret Overcharge, overcharges immediately, in addition to its blind effect, Smoke Screen burns enemies on the same interval. Added burning pitch gfx to the smokescreen.
  • Rifle Turret Overcharge, instead of firing faster for 10s, rapid-fire 10 shots over 3 seconds.
  • Toolbelt skills for Thumper Turret & Net Turret - reduced from 38s to 25s.
  • Toolbelt skill for Flame Turret, Throw Napalm, radius increased from 180 to 240.
  • Toolbelt skill for Rocket Turret, Rocket, velocity increased 50%.

2.) Experimental Turrets: Rocket Turret's Retaliation increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Healing Turret Vigor increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Flame Turret's might stacks increased from 3 to 5 stacks. In addition to its current effects, if a turret reaches the end of its 10s lifespan, the turret performs a second overcharged attack as a parting gift. Reflective shields activate simultaneously with the turret being placed, but are reduced from 3s to 2s duration.

 

Utility Skills

 

1.) Personal Battering Ram: Currently: Launches foe, 130 range. New: Target limit increased to 5, and range of Ram attack extended to 450. No longer tracks targets, rather fires in a frontal cone.

2.) Slick Shoes: Currently: Spray oil, knocking enemies down for 2 seconds, affects once per target. New: Given two ammunition, ammunition recharge, 20 seconds. 2s ICD between using ammunition. (Note: Each use of Slick Shoes still only affects an enemy once.)

3.) Mine Field: Currently: Plant 5 mines around yourself. New: Instead, place a 300 radius field on the ground that lasts for 5 seconds. At every 1 second interval where a foe within the field is moving, a mine explodes on their position. Maximum 2 explosion per secon. (Note: The mine's damage, radius, and boon remove effects are the same as the current Mine Field mines.)

4.) Utility Goggles: No longer removes blind.  Increased resistance to 5 seconds.  Now, ability cooldown is reduced by 2s for every condition present on the Engineer upon use.

 

Elite Skills

1.) Elixir X: New: Drink Elixir X to become a monstrous alchemical being. (Bar icon mouseover: Test Subject X). Transform looks like a potion/alchemy re-skinned version of: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Subject_Alpha.jpg . Engineers while transformed into Test Subject X gain 2,000 toughness and vitality, a similar durability compared to Rampage. Stability x2, 3s, boon interval: 3s.

  • 1 "Thrash", 1/2s cast, 120 range, Damage: 244 (1.6), Number of targets: 3. -> "Hammer Fist", 1/2s cast, 120 range, Damage: 244 (1.6), Number of targets: 3. -> "Brutalize" 1s cast, 120 range, Damage: 304 (2.0), Number of targets: 3, launches foes upwards for 1 second.

  • 2 "Liquefy", dissolve and dash toward a foe, reappearing with a cloud of steam, blinding foes. 3/4s cast. Evade: 1s. 5 second cooldown. 600 range

  • 3 "Rapid Metamorphosis", Sharp bone erupts from the skin, granting yourself retaliation, (3s) resistance (3s) and cause each hit in the next 3 seconds to apply bleeding and cripple. Bleed, 6s. Cripple, 1s 1/2s cast. 6 second cooldown.

  • 4 "Spine Barrage", Fire a cluster of arcing spines at a target area, damaging foes. 1/2s cast. 9s cooldown. 240 radius area. 900 range. 770 (2.0) damage. (8 simultaneous hits) If under the effect of Rapid Metamorphosis, projectiles are empowered to immobilize those struck by any projectiles for 2 seconds total. (Grenade barrage like ability.)

  • 5 "Toxic eruption," Launch and poison foes in a cone with a forceful blast of hazardous waste. 1+1/4s cast. 9 second cooldown. 450 range frontal cone. 532 (2.0) damage. 3 Poison, 10 seconds. Number of targets: 5. (Chaotic release-like ability.)

2.) Toss Elixir X: Duration of Moa reduced to 1s, cooldown reduced to 30s.  Added 1s Daze to effect.

 

3.) Mortar Toolbelt: This skill has been re-worked, Orbital Strike: Activating this skill will toggle and create a flip-over skill on Mortar #1, "Lesser Orbital Strike", 6 second CD.  Cooldown starts when Lesser Orbital Strike is launched.

 

Healing Skills

 

1.) Bandage Self: New: Cast time reduced to .75s to be consistent with other heals.

Core Engineer Traits

Explosives

1.) Shrapnel: Increased bleeding from one stack to three, but duration reduced from 6s to 3s. (This will create a greater Synergy with Sanguine Array.)

 

Firearms

 

1.) Juggernaut: Currently: Gain might and stability while wielding a flamethrower. New: Effect extended to Bomb Kit. (This is appropriate given bomb kit's similar risky positioning requirement and lack of defense.)

2.) Serrated Steel: Currently: Bleeding duration increased by 15%. New: In addition to its previous effects, inflicting Bleeding on a Target will also inflict torment (2s) (1s ICD).

3.) Incendiary Powder: Has been partially reworked. Now, in addition to increasing burn duration, every strike from Rifle and Pistol skills will burn the target for 1s.

 

Inventions

 

1.) Automated Medical Response: Currently: Heal skills recharged when you're struck below 25% health. New: Instead of current effects, when reviving an ally, grant protection to nearby allies for 4 seconds. 180 radius. 20s ICD. Affects allies in the downed state.

2.) Autodefense Bomb Dispenser: Currently: Drop a smoke bomb when disabled. In addition to its previous effects, all Smoke Bomb effects empowered to grant 3 seconds of stealth to up to 5 allies on the first pulse.

3.) Energy Amplifier: Currently: When you are under the effects of Regeneration, gain +250 healing. New: In addition to its previous effects, your healing to allies is increased by 5/10/15% for each 25/50/75% target's health missing.

4.) Bunker down removed, now Bionic throwing-arm New: Bombs can now be thrown up to 300 distance units away as projectiles. Increased the range of Grenades, mines, and thrown Elixirs by 300.

 

Alchemy

 

1.) Backpack Regenerator: Currently: Recover health each second while in an Engineering kit. New: Healing reduced to 80 per second, down from 117. Using a skill in a kit grants a stacking buff for 5 seconds, one stack per unique kit. Regeneration effect stacks up to 3 times.

Tools:

1.) Takedown Round: Currently: Striking a target above the health threshold places a delayed explosive charge on them. New: Instead of it's previous effects, launching a foe does devastating damage. 250 (1.2coeff) (Overcharged Shot, Big Ol' Bomb, Thumper Turret, Personal Battering Ram, Tornado, Booby Trap, Blast Gyro, Holographic Shockwave, Prime Light Beam.)

 

Scrapper

 

  • Function Gyro considered a gyro (well).
  •  

Utility skills

 

1.) Medic Gyro: Reconstruction Field instant to return to consistency with Defense Field.

2.) Shredder Gyro: No longer creates whirl finishers. Now, each strike from shredder gyro removes the protection boon from enemies, and applies 2 vulnerability for 6s

3.) **Spare Capacitor: Dazes over the 4 pulses, daze duration reduced from 2s to .5s.**

 

Traits

 

1.) Damage Dampener - Currently: Delays 20% incoming damage by 2 seconds. New: Instead of its current effects, Scrapper's Gyro effects reduce damage taken by 10% on those affected.

2.) Expert Examination - changed to "on disable" rather than on daze or stun.

 

Holosmith

 

Nerfs:

Corona Burst: Quickness no longer incorrectly speeds up the "charge up" time after the actual cast.

Heat Therapy: Healing reduced in PvP from 39 to 20.

 

Utility Skills

 

1.) Coolant Blast - Always grants additional small heal over time. New above high heat threshold effect: Vents 25 heat. No longer chills or applies frost aura.

2.) Flash Spark - Instead of granting light aura when over the heat threshold, grant stability for 3s.

Traits1.) Solar Focusing Lens: Currently: First few attacks after entering Photon Forge or Overheating do 10% more damage and burn. New: In addition to its current effects, prevents the Engineer from suffering from the self damage over time component of overheating. (Note: This trait combined with Photonic Blasting Module will allow you to take no negative effects from Overheating.)

2.) New Suggestion for Crystal Configuration: Storm:

**Crystal Configuration: Storm: - New: Photon Forge skill #1 deals 15% increased damage, is an explosion, and increases range by 60, to 300.

3.) Photonic Blasting Module: New: In addition to its current effects, PBM allows use of Toolbelt skills while overheated - while overheated, all heat % bonuses are energized to the highest tier available.Immediately vent at 10 heat per second.

Edited by Chaith.8256
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Hmm, seems a step in the right direction, be nice to actually use my Engineer ingame instead of having to play another class to be an actual viable contribution to the gaming community. Medkit is very sacrificial, need to be made into a ranged mechanic, I'd say something akin to the flamethrower mechanism, the 1 skill does frost damage and the final tick, hmm provide some sort of boon and maybe chill the target. be a tanky spec to close to moderate range group support kit.

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If you want to create build diversity, one major thing to do would be to reduce the dependence on Elixirs/Alchemy for cleansing conditions. It's pretty limiting that pvp/wvw builds are forced to run that traitline. I'd remove the "elixirs cleanse condi" trait and increase cleanse on Engi's base heals (eg. +2 conditions cleansed per heal, added to toolbelt skill or base skill, or +1 each).

Now you can actually run different setups (I personally like - Explosions/Tools/Holo) without sacrificing nearly all your cleanse. That frees up a traitline and it also frees up utility skills.

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I like these changes. Would also like if they just got rid of turrets all together and gave us something in their place since they are useless, even if it means healing turret goes bye bye. Turrets will never be balanced again and they will forever remain in useless territory so why not get rid of them?Guess we can just add this and your changes to the list of things that will never get added ever, though it was a nice to imagine these.

Also Med Kit bby pls.

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@Arimas.3492 said:I like these changes. Would also like if they just got rid of turrets all together and gave us something in their place since they are useless, even if it means healing turret goes bye bye. Turrets will never be balanced again and they will forever remain in useless territory so why not get rid of them?Guess we can just add this and your changes to the list of things that will never get added ever, though it was a nice to imagine these.

Also Med Kit bby pls.

All clutter should remain outside of PvP, I know better than to suggest that they become an effective option while taking way less thought and skill. They can remain an option for low level open world PvE content

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@DirtyMonk.9240 said:Firearms: Also need a change for "modified ammunition", this trait looks more like necro damage trait. And honestly say "skilled marksman" does not change anything.

Modified ammunition, that's a very important trait in PvE. It's like 26% additional power raid damage.

Skilled Marksman I'd change though now you mention it.

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In a way, I find these solutions both "too much" and "not enough". At this point I'd like a total remake of the class, both traits and skills, maybe even the way kits and toolbelt works. But there are very good ideas in this post, and I hope the devs will finally understand that engineers are left behind since expansions because of their class mechanic.

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@Ivantreil.3092 said:As a dedicated core rifle engi, i tottally love the changes you suggested for firearms, it really rewards specing for offensiveness.

In another subject, what about some buffs in our other healing skills, a cast reduction in Self-bandage or Elixir H?

I added cast time shaves to Elixir H and Bandage Self to match Coolant Blast, Healing Turret, A.E.D. Removed RNG from Elixir H skills and halved duration of boons

@Tyaen.5148 said:My first thought when reading through is that Juggernaut would be OP.

Not for current builds, Juggernaut relies on camping the kit, you get nothing until you've been sitting in it for 3 seconds, so Photon Forge or Swapping Kits will kill it, Juggernaut has always been bad because you have to literally camp it to utilize it. With my proposition, Core Engi could make best use of Juggernaut, with Static Discharge being simultaneously fixed, and a good Rifle master trait, it'd be lit.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

Not for current builds, Juggernaut relies on camping the kit, you get nothing until you've been sitting in it for 3 seconds, so Photon Forge or Swapping Kits will kill it, Juggernaut has always been bad because you have to literally camp it to utilize it. With my proposition, Core Engi could make best use of Juggernaut, with Static Discharge being simultaneously fixed, and a good Rifle master trait, it'd be lit.

Oh I agree, I'd love it. But, Rifle/Holosmith is already pretty damn good. Adding full time might gen and stabo while Forge is cooling down? I'll take it, but I can see the qq from all the other classes already.

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@Tyaen.5148 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

Not for current builds, Juggernaut relies on camping the kit, you get nothing until you've been sitting in it for 3 seconds, so Photon Forge or Swapping Kits will kill it, Juggernaut has always been bad because you have to literally camp it to utilize it. With my proposition, Core Engi could make best use of Juggernaut, with Static Discharge being simultaneously fixed, and a good Rifle master trait, it'd be lit.

Oh I agree, I'd love it. But, Rifle/Holosmith is already pretty kitten good. Adding full time might gen and stabo while Forge is cooling down? I'll take it, but I can see the qq from all the other classes already.

Rifle Holo does not run Firearms currently because the Rocket Boots disengage is pretty valuable, if Firearms could fight well like the Explosives' Mine Trail build, it'd be interesting. Personally I doubt if the extra stability would be a must have, for the first 3 seconds after leaving Photon Forge you'd be unable to disengage or get stab. Honestly I'd also like to see Holosmith use other options like Crystal Configuration: Zephyr instead of the Stability as well.

Edit: extending the stab to 5s duration and 5s interval would make it less appealing to Holo due to the increased wait upon entering rifle and making it more vulnerable to CC/boon stripping.

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I recall that at one point ArenaNet indicated they were considering making Explosive Shot and Jump Shot classify as explosions. Never happened in the end, but it would make pistol more worthwhile.

Sooner or later they really are going to have to recognise that it can't be left as-is. Maybe when they want to introduce an elite spec with an offhand?

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@draxynnic.3719 said:I recall that at one point ArenaNet indicated they were considering making Explosive Shot and Jump Shot classify as explosions. Never happened in the end, but it would make pistol more worthwhile.

Sooner or later they really are going to have to recognise that it can't be left as-is. Maybe when they want to introduce an elite spec with an offhand?

Hah, yeah, Pistol mainhand is just not even in the ballpark. Probably my suggested buffs aren't enough.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:No more buffs please, core engi is already pretty good, its iust that holo and broken specs overshadow it, id rather everything be nerfed down to core engi level instead.

condi vanilla engi is almost identical in damage to holosmith, here's a comparison of the two:

If anything, both variants need a bit more love to compete with every other strong PoF DPS, they are getting much closer between each other though. Weaver still a huge anomaly.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:I recall that at one point ArenaNet indicated they were considering making Explosive Shot and Jump Shot classify as explosions. Never happened in the end, but it would make pistol more worthwhile.

Sooner or later they really are going to have to recognise that it can't be left as-is. Maybe when they want to introduce an elite spec with an offhand?

Hah, yeah, Pistol mainhand is just not even in the ballpark. Probably my suggested buffs aren't enough.

Heck, Shattershot has basically everything Fragmentation Shot used to have... and the rev players regard renegade shortbow as bad. Granted, you have to consider the other skills as well, but that was pretty much the first thing I thought when I saw Shattershot: "Isn't this exactly what pre-nerf engineer pistol used to do?"

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@Coolguy.8702 said:No more buffs please, core engi is already pretty good, its iust that holo and broken specs overshadow it, id rather everything be nerfed down to core engi level instead.

Core Engi will get further PvP buffs, there's no avoiding that. The new balanced tier in PvP is: Holosmith, Chrono, D/P Daredevil, Tempest, core Ele, core S/D Thief, arguably Spellbreaker and a few others. Core Engi is multiple tiers below the tier ArenaNet is actively buffing and nerfing these classes to.

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@Chaith.8256 said:5.) Crystal Configuration: Zephyr - Currently: Holo Leap removes movement impairing conditions and grants superspeed instead of swiftness. New: Instead of granting superspeed, increases the range of Holo Leap from 450 to 900 & adds .75s evade. This trait increases the cooldown of Holo Leap to 4s.Swiftness duration increased to 4s. (Note: live, it's currently 450 not 600)

Removing superspeed would remove Holosmith from my WvW guild's main use for it and I'd probably go back to playing revenant for them. :(The meta in WvW right now requires high mobility to help counter pirate shipping. I'm not sure Anet would make such a drastic skill-split between PvP and WvW.

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