Something weird about raids

[Vidit.7108]

My guild, before everyone quit, used to do raids. They play FFXIV now. Having joined them in that game, and now seen GW2 raids thanks to embolden, I think I have an answer this. (NA player here.)

Gw2 makes learning how to play this content completely unintuitive at multiple stages of any given raid. No resurrections? Well it makes the content harder for sure, it also makes res skills kind of useless, a lot of mechanics the players can fail are instant death. So there isn't a lot of room to learn as you go since in a lot of places the run is over when 1 of your 10 players is dead, gg. Most runs aren't recoverable, it could be going really well for your group and one mistake near the end sends you back to the start. Some bosses need 10 players, some bosses need those 10 players to be flawless.

Being told what and how by a video or a guide is only part of the solution to actually being able to do a raid.  There are several raids where you fight with the controls and not with the boss, for example having to wait for the cast time on eating the mushroom in slothasor , you might know exactly what to do and how to do it but there is still a learning curve there around the mechanic jank. (This isn't the only example I have, just not going to put them all here) In the training groups I have had since the embolden patch it's taken hours with multiple roles dropped per boss per wipe. In the time I've taken to learn one raid in GW2, I could have completed the FFXIV Eden raids start to finish with all new players. I don't really consider the bosses in the GW2 raids to be that hard, but well, that flame wall RNG killed half of the party at 3/4ths health, so I guess we have to start over, again.

So what I think the problem is that the barrier to entry is a little high but then once you start a group some players are responsible for having a specialized skill, they can learn nowhere else but on this one boss, that then won't be used again on a different boss.

Once my envoy collection is complete and I get to see the story for each raid, I'm not really planning on touching most of these ever again. The rewards are bad and the time commitment is insane. When my old guild used to raid every week in this game, it always seemed like it stressed them out. I can't speak to how much fun they had back then but they seem a lot happier in FFXIV now.

[The Boz.2038]

5 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

There are several raids where you fight with the controls and not with the boss, for example having to wait for the cast time on eating the mushroom in slothasor , you might know exactly what to do and how to do it but there is still a learning curve there around the mechanic jank.

How is an ability with a displayed casting time """"mechanic jank"""" or fighting with the controls?

[Pinkeh.4207]

I started raiding for the first time last month. It was a complete coincidence. A friend said his "static" needed extra bodies for a raid. "I've never raided before." He said "just come, I'll teach you".  So a month later i've cleared every boss encounter. I've also contributed to some CMs. I've finished the Envoy and Coalescence collections and will finish my first set of legendary armor soon. 

 

Here is my observation for the last month:

- If my friend didn't teach the basics I'd probably never raid. The game does not do a sufficient job to entice players to TRY raiding. Perhaps I have some form of PTSD from other games with raids, but I probably wouldn't if i wasn't invited to a static group.

- Most PVE content in the game has a difficulty ramp. You start from the basics and then work towards a mastery. With raids there is no ramp. You're just presented with a rocky cliff face and told to climb. 

- Raids come with its own ocean of knowledge, terminology, cookie cutter builds and expectations. Its convenient to have the gear and playstyle for multiple roles if you want to be included in a raid composition. In some communities not having the preferred build is justification for being kicked from the group. Some communities completely avoid raids because of toxic players and it's easy to see that this is a widespread issue, but not unique to this game.

- Then there is the in-game LFG system. It's insufficient. The raiding community has attempted to patch the problem by bridging a bunch of how-to websites, training resources, discord channels and tools. Then it is up to individual static groups to fill the slots with regulars; or be at the mercy of the in-game LFG tool.  

- The raid sellers on the NA server are annoying and clogging the LFG tool. I've ended up joining each advertiser and blocking them.  

- I play OCX prime time. LFG is a graveyard. Occasionally an OCX static raid may advertise for a fill but this is not common. It's pretty much a "right time and place" thing. If you don't have the LFG tool open during the advertised time or getting 'pings' from discord you're not going to get into any static raid groups. The only time LFG picks up for me is 2am - 8am. If i'm heading into the office the next day... forget it. 

- Then there is getting 10 people to commit hours and hours towards a common goal. This is OK for a bunch of people trying to earn enough LI for their legendary gear. But what then? What is the incentive afterwards? Once you've obtained all the raid armor and ring, why would you keep playing raids? 

- The time commitment to raid is absurd. Most working adults don't have that much spare time. With a fully committed group you could get through several wings within 1-2 hours but again this is not common.

- I really appreciate the trainers from Raid Academy who invested their time to explain the various raid mechanics and what to look out for at the beginning of my journey. But why doesn't the game do this? The game also doesn't reward experienced players for passing on their knowledge. Instead there is no incentive to replay content once you've cleared your weekly bosses.

- Then there is "kill proof".  Not every group demands it. But if i see one asking for kill proof my brain instinctively ignores that group. No thank you. 

- Embolden has been a god send. I led some training raids recently. Embolden 5 helps even the newest players with some knowledge or gear to complete some of the most difficult encounters.  Leading a group of completely new players and clearing Wing 6's CA and TL was rather amazing. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Pinkeh.4207

[Einsof.1457]

I left FFXIV because the raiding is boring and unrewarding..on week 10 of raiding in gw2 and having a blast..if you like boring arena style boss fights where all you need to do is  "avoid the lava"  and there's nothing dynamic at all, and the loot becomes outdated quickly,  have fun. Don't bring that trash here. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Angelz.9713]

I will say that in my experience people prefer to avoid the in game LFG for raids, especially, newer players. They instead go to Raid Academy or Guilds like mine that focus on training raids and progression. Its a much more comfortable atmosphere where they feel safer. As for the discord thing, just because discord is required doesn't mean you have to talk. Just need to be able to listen in as sometimes in raids, its a mere couple of words that keeps the squad from wiping and typing it would have taken too long. Communication is really key.
I agree Anet missed the mark on put in a training in LFG...nobody uses it because some want to get carried, others don't want to spend the time learning and would rather join experienced raiders. Very rarely do I ever see anyone in the Training LFG for Raids. 
Just like the LFG Anet missed their mark with emboldened, it needs a lot of refinement and would have been better to be put into EOD strike missions since they are supposed to be a stepping stone to Raids. 
Many people shy away from raids at the thought of discord and 10 man content but its some of the most fun content so hopefully you will give it a try. 
 

[Nephalem.8921]

19 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I left FFXIV because the raiding is boring and unrewarding..on week 10 of raiding in gw2 and having a blast..if you like boring arena style boss fights where all you need to do is  "avoid the lava"  and there's nothing dynamic at all, and the loot becomes outdated quickly,  have fun. Don't bring that trash here. 

w1-w4 are basically dps golems without mechanics. most bosses have 1-2 mechanics at most. a single savage boss has more mechanics than wing 1-5 combined.

[pikalovr.4613]

40 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

w1-w4 are basically dps golems without mechanics. most bosses have 1-2 mechanics at most. a single savage boss has more mechanics than wing 1-5 combined.

saying XIV savage mechanics aren't just normal version mechanics with like 2-3 new mechanics, and if you're lucky them layering older mechanics on top of eachother is very funny ngl. i left XIV for the exact same reason each savage fight was boring and brought nothing really new to the table we very rarely get actual good shake up fights like P3s. let's take W7 for example (comparing most recent to most recent) the first fight already has more individual responsibilities and coordination needed than both P1s and P2s. P3s and P4s would be more equivalent to the final fight where you have group responsibilities and individual responsibilities (not to mention P4s is basically an entire different fight to normal). the pylons are a great and interesting mechanic (especially if you're on the pylon that the tank decides to aim cleaves at but i digress).  

the final savage fight in each tier (with some exceptions of course) is similar to each wings fights in terms of mechanics and difficulty and that should tell you something.

onto the point of teaching the players i will once again bring up W7 the two mid boss fights actively show how mechanics work before the fight (unstable pillars and tornadoes). and no they shouldn't show you everything before every fight otherwise whats the point of prog? i went in with a group of 9 other people some blind some had run it years ago and forgot and like 1 person actually knew the fights and we finished W7 normal in like 2 hours not bad at all imo. the game gives you the tools to learn and improve the game just doesn't shove it all in your face. i wonder how many average/casual people actually even know about the training zone or even about the /wiki command?

but if you really want to "teach" players how every little thing works shove them in a instance that explains different things condition damage, toughness, boons and debuffs, break bar, etc... and make it accessible from every main hub in the game so players can refresh their memory if needed.

is there some parts that could be better defined or explained? sure just look at boon strip and condi cleansing priorities and how many people still don't know how it works or still question if it works how they say it does but no game is perfect and everything you'd need to know for raids is already accessible in game or is taught passively

[Nephalem.8921]

14 minutes ago, pikalovr.4613 said:

saying XIV savage mechanics aren't just normal version mechanics with like 2-3 new mechanics, and if you're lucky them layering older mechanics on top of eachother is very funny ngl. i left XIV for the exact same reason each savage fight was boring and brought nothing really new to the table we very rarely get actual good shake up fights like P3s. let's take W7 for example (comparing most recent to most recent) the first fight already has more individual responsibilities and coordination needed than both P1s and P2s. P3s and P4s would be more equivalent to the final fight where you have group responsibilities and individual responsibilities (not to mention P4s is basically an entire different fight to normal). the pylons are a great and interesting mechanic (especially if you're on the pylon that the tank decides to aim cleaves at but i digress).  

the final savage fight in each tier (with some exceptions of course) is similar to each wings fights in terms of mechanics and difficulty and that should tell you something.

onto the point of teaching the players i will once again bring up W7 the two mid boss fights actively show how mechanics work before the fight (unstable pillars and tornadoes). and no they shouldn't show you everything before every fight otherwise whats the point of prog? i went in with a group of 9 other people some blind some had run it years ago and forgot and like 1 person actually knew the fights and we finished W7 normal in like 2 hours not bad at all imo. the game gives you the tools to learn and improve the game just doesn't shove it all in your face. i wonder how many average/casual people actually even know about the training zone or even about the /wiki command?

but if you really want to "teach" players how every little thing works shove them in a instance that explains different things condition damage, toughness, boons and debuffs, break bar, etc... and make it accessible from every main hub in the game so players can refresh their memory if needed.

is there some parts that could be better defined or explained? sure just look at boon strip and condi cleansing priorities and how many people still don't know how it works or still question if it works how they say it does but no game is perfect and everything you'd need to know for raids is already accessible in game or is taught passively

Adina: You do dps hard. The tank is afk in front. 5 players carry out pillars once. Then the boss phases since it has so ridiculous low hp that you dont have to do mechanics anyways. You do some rp run in a circle. kill 2 hands and repeat phase 1 4 times.

Sabir: Was oneshotted on release day without even knowing the mechanics...

The entire wing was cleared within 1.5h after release and 10min of that were rp dialogue. The strike cms were a huge improvement. Most of the raidbosses need a 150% hp buff at this point. Also ff14 has dps checks. Gw2 didnt really have them before strike cms and only 2 strike cms have them.

You yourself wrote that you went in blind and cleared everything within 2h. Thats why the hardcore scene died when content like this was all we would get after 2 years. A single slacking dps could mean enrage in ff14 savage. You can 5man most gw2 raidbosses easily and most pug raids are basically low manning all the time since there are always 2-3 extremely useless players.

Most players do know about the training area. They just do not care enough to enter it because the entire game teaches them that their performance is pointless. they get rewards anyways no matter what.

[pikalovr.4613]

9 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Adina: You do dps hard. The tank is afk in front. 5 players carry out pillars once. Then the boss phases since it has so ridiculous low hp that you dont have to do mechanics anyways. You do some rp run in a circle. kill 2 hands and repeat phase 1 4 times.

Sabir: Was oneshotted on release day without even knowing the mechanics...

The entire wing was cleared within 1.5h after release and 10min of that were rp dialogue. The strike cms were a huge improvement. Most of the raidbosses need a 150% hp buff at this point. Also ff14 has dps checks. Gw2 didnt really have them before strike cms and only 2 strike cms have them.

You yourself wrote that you went in blind and cleared everything within 2h. Thats why the hardcore scene died when content like this was all we would get after 2 years. A single slacking dps could mean enrage in ff14 savage. You can 5man most gw2 raidbosses easily and most pug raids are basically low manning all the time since there are always 2-3 extremely useless players.

Most players do know about the training area. They just do not care enough to enter it because the entire game teaches them that their performance is pointless. they get rewards anyways no matter what.

people world first savage tiers in 2 hours literally only P4s and P3s (which was a shake up savage) were the only ones that took longer than a few tries. you really can't compare that here, and yes the normal mode took 2 hours. you know how many people one shot the normal raids? too many to count the fact the normal version even took time and tries to do is already leaps and bounds better than XIVs raid system

and if you can burst down a boss before it even gets through all it's mechanics thats not a bad thing the problem is when it's EVERY boss which was XIVs problem you could ignore pretty much every mechanic and still pass thanks to one person normally a healer knowing the fight. "A single slacking dps could mean enrage in ff14 savage." tell me you don't do savages in XIV without telling me you don't do savages in XIV people can get straight carried through fights just hitting their essentially AA combo but yeah bud. once again you only really have a DPS check for like the first weeks if that (typically if you ran the meta comp you'd have alot more leniency) and the second BiS gear is obtained it's GG. you can be heavily unoptimal and still get carried even in those first weeks with nobody having peak gear besides maybe a few pieces thanks to tomestones my group carried a BLM who would consistently deal as much damage as the tanks . 

now compare that to wings in GW2 if you go double down thats it your party has to immediately put in more work to cover you being dead that right there is already far more individual responsibility than you'll ever see in XIV. you can't keep dying to mechanics and still clear without multiple people either stepping up their game or knowing the mechanics on a deeper level (unstable pillar overlapping for example). you keep dying in XIV you have two healers sitting there with swift cast raises ready to pick you up at any point they want cause there is no down timer or DD you can still contribute cause you can constantly be brought back into deal a little damage then die again.

and we're also gonna gloss over the fact that majority of the mechanics can be dealt with by multiple specs and different ways. let's look at pylons my group decided to do the scourge tactic for it but there's also other specs who can do it. if XIV actually had more diverse jobs most mechanics would quickly become bring this specific team comp or you're gimping yourself. cause the mechanics there have nothing going for them 9/10 i'd much rather have unstable pillar than can you stand on the red or blue AOE? if there was a stat that say an elementalist excels at that overall is faster for the raid people wouldn't mind having an elementalist over say a HAM cause they know that strat will make up for or be more efficient overall

[Nephalem.8921]

11 hours ago, pikalovr.4613 said:

people world first savage tiers in 2 hours literally only P4s and P3s (which was a shake up savage) were the only ones that took longer than a few tries. you really can't compare that here, and yes the normal mode took 2 hours. you know how many people one shot the normal raids? too many to count the fact the normal version even took time and tries to do is already leaps and bounds better than XIVs raid system

and if you can burst down a boss before it even gets through all it's mechanics thats not a bad thing the problem is when it's EVERY boss which was XIVs problem you could ignore pretty much every mechanic and still pass thanks to one person normally a healer knowing the fight. "A single slacking dps could mean enrage in ff14 savage." tell me you don't do savages in XIV without telling me you don't do savages in XIV people can get straight carried through fights just hitting their essentially AA combo but yeah bud. once again you only really have a DPS check for like the first weeks if that (typically if you ran the meta comp you'd have alot more leniency) and the second BiS gear is obtained it's GG. you can be heavily unoptimal and still get carried even in those first weeks with nobody having peak gear besides maybe a few pieces thanks to tomestones my group carried a BLM who would consistently deal as much damage as the tanks . 

now compare that to wings in GW2 if you go double down thats it your party has to immediately put in more work to cover you being dead that right there is already far more individual responsibility than you'll ever see in XIV. you can't keep dying to mechanics and still clear without multiple people either stepping up their game or knowing the mechanics on a deeper level (unstable pillar overlapping for example). you keep dying in XIV you have two healers sitting there with swift cast raises ready to pick you up at any point they want cause there is no down timer or DD you can still contribute cause you can constantly be brought back into deal a little damage then die again.

and we're also gonna gloss over the fact that majority of the mechanics can be dealt with by multiple specs and different ways. let's look at pylons my group decided to do the scourge tactic for it but there's also other specs who can do it. if XIV actually had more diverse jobs most mechanics would quickly become bring this specific team comp or you're gimping yourself. cause the mechanics there have nothing going for them 9/10 i'd much rather have unstable pillar than can you stand on the red or blue AOE? if there was a stat that say an elementalist excels at that overall is faster for the raid people wouldn't mind having an elementalist over say a HAM cause they know that strat will make up for or be more efficient overall

Different experiences if you do them week 1 or later with bis and echo i guess. In gw2 most raids have been 3-5 manned so half the raid could die without any real consequences. I have killed xera with the healer dying on gliding platform.

You write that ff14 has no personal responsibility but multiple mechanics in ff14 kill either your partner or the whole group if not executed properly. Only very few mechanics can do this in gw2. Usually all mechanics are handled by 2-3 players while the rest is doing a semi afk dps rotation on boss. This is the main issue why you have to ask for 100s of kps in gw2 raids. Its so easy to get carried through them. a few kp have no value.

I really struggled with some enrages in week 2 because tanks and healers were slacking like usually. Of course you can cheese it later with mass revives but you have to get the gear for that first. Min itemlevel is a different experience because weakness hurts a lot. Also gw2 has the most busted healer in the form of heal scourge. Mass revive on a 12sec cd.

You are probably very new in gw2 but if you die usually nothing happens. 3-4 people have to die before you really have to step up your game a bit. There are NO mechanics which require more than 6 players and even the ones that do can be cheesed to be done by less. A failed mechanic does not even result in a wipe in most cases, just a slap on the wrist.

Strike cms are different though. Except for the responsibility part. You can still clear all of them except ht cm with ~7players easily.

[Luci.7018]

Maybe create an algorithm that checks which areas of the game people are playing at (only World Boss , or only Fractals(  , and each area drops different "stones -100 ministones>1megastone " (tiers) that allows you to use the IBS Strike 2-hour timer  ?

Different tiers mean that the casuals won't try to join groups they don't belong and if they are marked as afk they won't get stones for a day and they should try to get from other areas of  the game .

The 100ministones requirements are reduced with each successful instance completion , while they increased with afk detection .

Some communities will rise and some shall not .

 

(boss once a while will place an aoe at the furthest player away , dealing   5% hp every sec , and if the player stays and die from it , then it means he is afked , or wants to be dead.

Each player get 50 stacks of invisible confusion that will explode after 2min .Doing any skill (defensive -offensive -except auto) will remove a stack , and you better hurry before the big-boom-comfusion explosion is enabled.

For the 1st +2nd Downstate , all skills are replaced with new that offer 400yard mobility once (away from the boss ) , so we can see if the person tried to kill himself by doing nothing at the start of the match , or actively tries to survive .At the 3rd and onwards , it will do 150 yard leap + attract the attention of the boss

edit: the mobility-downstate is a glitch)

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Luci.7018

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I'm a veteran of MMOs for over 20 years, and honestly raids are just bad in this game.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but they're extremely frustrating compared to other games. Its strange because they're alot easier in difficulty yet the game punishes you for playing them.

 

Its something called "artificial difficulty":

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

(You'd be surprised how many dozens of these tropes Guild Wars 2 checks off..)

 

In other MMOs raids are alot more difficult but not blocking mechanics like resurrection means that you can always clear them given enough time. You don't have to spend several hours typing /gg into chat every time a mistake is made only to walk away without a clear if your group isn't good enough (especially pugs).

 

The biggest problems compared too other games are:

- Favoring DPS builds, with frequent DPS checks. Even the healers run glassy builds, because no amount of defense does you any good, even the Protection boon is mostly worthless.

- Strangely enough, even active defenses are also mostly useless, like blind. Only some blocks and evades work, and only on some attacks. The best defense is simply to side step enemy skills,.

- Instant death mechanics, healers are of limited use as a result.

- Permanent death, so revival skills are of limited use, no resurrections, and mistakes often require intentional group wipes. This is okay in strikes, which are short, but in raids its stressful.

- No real tanking, as the boss still heavily damages non-tank players. Many raids don't even have tanks and just focus players based upon other criteria instead, making each raid its own learning process.

 

If you've played any other MMOs, this isn't how raids traditionally work. Almost every game gives the group the option of either being an extremely efficient DPS group or "tankin n' spankin', guaranteeing a clear as long as their coordination is good and how they approach it only determines how long it takes.

 

You may think this is a good thing, but its not. In Guild Wars 2 raids have the same problem as PvP, the devs can't make raids as hard as they possibly could be because there's no way for groups to recover from a snowballing situation. As a result, players can't be tested too much as the only outcome of a series of mistakes (sometimes just one mistake) is complete failure.

 

This is why raids in this game are significantly easier than in other games, yet also much more frustrating. You can't design content that intentionally encourages players to fail right out the door.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[eyelogix.1654]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:59 PM, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Well in every mmo , the driving force is also the auto-lfg .

But the GW2 raiders  have a strange attitude towards it .

Thank god we have a LI-KP system and we brim with communities

 

(why raiders always forget auto-lfg , when they mention other games ?)

LI and KP is just the dumbest kitten out here!

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I'm a veteran of MMOs for over 20 years, and honestly raids are just bad in this game.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but they're extremely frustrating compared to other games. Its strange because they're alot easier in difficulty yet the game punishes you for playing them.

 

Its something called "artificial difficulty":

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

(You'd be surprised how many dozens of these tropes Guild Wars 2 checks off..)

 

In other MMOs raids are alot more difficult but not blocking mechanics like resurrection means that you can always clear them given enough time. You don't have to spend several hours typing /gg into chat every time a mistake is made only to walk away without a clear if your group isn't good enough (especially pugs).

 

The biggest problems compared too other games are:

- Favoring DPS builds, with frequent DPS checks. Even the healers run glassy builds, because no amount of defense does you any good, even the Protection boon is mostly worthless.

- Strangely enough, even active defenses are also mostly useless, like blind. Only some blocks and evades work, and only on some attacks. The best defense is simply to side step enemy skills,.

- Instant death mechanics, healers are of limited use as a result.

- Permanent death, so revival skills are of limited use, no resurrections, and mistakes often require intentional group wipes. This is okay in strikes, which are short, but in raids its stressful.

- No real tanking, as the boss still heavily damages non-tank players. Many raids don't even have tanks and just focus players based upon other criteria instead, making each raid its own learning process.

 

If you've played any other MMOs, this isn't how raids traditionally work. Almost every game gives the group the option of either being an extremely efficient DPS group or "tankin n' spankin', guaranteeing a clear as long as their coordination is good and how they approach it only determines how long it takes.

 

You may think this is a good thing, but its not. In Guild Wars 2 raids have the same problem as PvP, the devs can't make raids as hard as they possibly could be because there's no way for groups to recover from a snowballing situation. As a result, players can't be tested too much as the only outcome of a series of mistakes (sometimes just one mistake) is complete failure.

 

This is why raids in this game are significantly easier than in other games, yet also much more frustrating. You can't design content that intentionally encourages players to fail right out the door.

Don't bother, I stated same points in old forums post HoT launch, all it got was flame, that GW2 raids are best in any MMO. At this point "hardcore gw2" casuals are refusing to see the truth for what it is.

[Nephalem.8921]

4 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Don't bother, I stated same points in old forums post HoT launch, all it got was flame, that GW2 raids are best in any MMO. At this point "hardcore gw2" casuals are refusing to see the truth for what it is.

Most of the points you are quoting are just wrong. Other games have dps checks and you cant even select tank gear on a mage for example. All healers have to dps now in other mmos. It feels like Mariyuuna only played lfr in wow. Thats easier than most open world bosses in gw2 and not the intended raid difficulty. Its basically infantile mode which should exist too but its not the intended raid difficulty.

Mechanics have to oneshot otherwise you just heal through them. Vg greens for example. Gw2 has almost no dps checks compared to other mmos unless you only know lfr. Tank and spank bosses don't really exist anymore. There is always some raidwide damage going on in other mmos so the healers dont fall asleep.

Only very few mechanics oneshot in gw2. A lot more should since a healscourge can cheese almost all raid encounters.

[Bakeneko.5826]

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Most of the points you are quoting are just wrong. Other games have dps checks and you cant even select tank gear on a mage for example. All healers have to dps now in other mmos. It feels like Mariyuuna only played lfr in wow. Thats easier than most open world bosses in gw2 and not the intended raid difficulty. Its basically infantile mode which should exist too but its not the intended raid difficulty.

Mechanics have to oneshot otherwise you just heal through them. Vg greens for example. Gw2 has almost no dps checks compared to other mmos unless you only know lfr. Tank and spank bosses don't really exist anymore. There is always some raidwide damage going on in other mmos so the healers dont fall asleep.

Only very few mechanics oneshot in gw2. A lot more should since a healscourge can cheese almost all raid encounters.

Feels like you feel like ESO and WoW are only other MMOs.

[Nephalem.8921]

3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Feels like you feel like ESO and WoW are only other MMOs.

Some ff14 normal bosses and strikes are harder than the easier gw2 raids. Which mmo raid has no dps check? And in which mmo can you equip tank gear on healers/dps and still succeed? because you can clear just fine in full cele. makes the game very boring but you can do it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

6 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Most of the points you are quoting are just wrong. Other games have dps checks and you cant even select tank gear on a mage for example. All healers have to dps now in other mmos. It feels like Mariyuuna only played lfr in wow. Thats easier than most open world bosses in gw2 and not the intended raid difficulty. Its basically infantile mode which should exist too but its not the intended raid difficulty.

Mechanics have to oneshot otherwise you just heal through them. Vg greens for example. Gw2 has almost no dps checks compared to other mmos unless you only know lfr. Tank and spank bosses don't really exist anymore. There is always some raidwide damage going on in other mmos so the healers dont fall asleep.

Only very few mechanics oneshot in gw2. A lot more should since a healscourge can cheese almost all raid encounters.

Normally I try to ignore responses like this, but really?

 

There's no reason to insult me by saying that I've only done that. I can guarantee you I was probably raiding before you or most players here even knew what an MMO was. Other games came before WoW (like Everquest) and even WoW started out vastly different from what it became, with much higher difficulties.

 

"Everything has been modernised so you are wrong" is the incorrect answer.

 

Also, any Ele player knows nearly everything oneshots you if you don't dodge. No amount of healing helps you when your base HP is 10k and your base armor is the weakest in the game. You can't heal nothing. HealScourge is a hard carry because of barriers and revives precisely for this reason.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Nephalem.8921]

14 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Normally I try to ignore responses like this, but really?

 

There's no reason to insult me by saying that I've only done that. I can guarantee you I was probably raiding before you or most players here even knew what an MMO was. Other games came before WoW (like Everquest) and even WoW started out vastly different from what it became, with much higher difficulties.

 

"Everything has been modernised so you are wrong" is the incorrect answer.

 

Also, any Ele player knows nearly everything oneshots you if you don't dodge. No amount of healing helps you when your base HP is 10k and your base armor is the weakest in the game. You can't heal nothing. HealScourge is a hard carry because of barriers and revives precisely for this reason.

Ok you are one of that kind. No the older mmos and old raids would be extremely easy today. They could not make them that hard back then because of latency, stability and other technical limitations alone. Compare a hard old boss to a mythic wow endboss or ff14 ultimate. Newer encounters have a lot more stuff going on.

Play rouls open world condi weaver if you dont want to die. Does still ok dps and is one of the tankiest specs in the game. The only reason why healscourge can carry is because of not enough instakills in raid encounters. You are contradicting yourself with saying that healscourge is a hardcarry and there being too many oneshots in raids.

The ele downstate meme while funny does not really apply to raids. Only very few encounte deal damage. I mean i read in this thread that a new player cleared w7 in 3h or something with a beginner group. Compare that to other games. Gw2 normal raids are already quite easy. They lack hardmode and infantile mode though.

A valid complain for something thats too hard for the wrong reasons are bad visuals. Its almost impossible to see some mechanics in the new strike cms. The strike 3 sniper shot has a pixel wide outline circle for some reason. Its also not that easy to see if you got the expanding circle in a stack of 10 players. The mechanics itself are not the problem. All the raid mechanics are very easy.

Which raids can you always clear given enough time? Because the other big raid mmos have enrage timers which are not as useless as the gw2 ones.

There is real tanking. The boss usually does not apply damage to non tanking players except for the raid aura or messed up mechanics. Actually ff14 + wow have a lot more raidwide damage going on.

Which mmo do you mean and which encounters? You can clear most raids just fine with 7 players so 1-2 deaths are not that punishing. Also very few mechanics skip downstate so you first have to mess up once and then another time and fail the revive.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

In other MMOs raids are alot more difficult but not blocking mechanics like resurrection means that you can always clear them given enough time. You don't have to spend several hours typing /gg into chat every time a mistake is made only to walk away without a clear if your group isn't good enough (especially pugs).

Only half true. Other mmos also have very high cds on these abilities resulting in a few uses per encounters. FF14 has "infinite" uses as long as the user has mana but the revived player gets a revive penalty.

The 2nd part is just wrong. Other mmos have actual dps checks unless you overgear hard. You cant just clear savage in ff14 with chain reviving people unless you overgear the content hard. 

Quote

The biggest problems compared too other games are:

- Favoring DPS builds, with frequent DPS checks. Even the healers run glassy builds, because no amount of defense does you any good, even the Protection boon is mostly worthless.

In which game can healers even build tanky? Protection is not worthless and toughness is busted. Try playing with a full cele team and fall asleep.

Quote

- Strangely enough, even active defenses are also mostly useless, like blind. Only some blocks and evades work, and only on some attacks. The best defense is simply to side step enemy skills,.

Of course! Do you want to cheese major mechanis with blocks? Because you could do that some years ago with distortion share. Other games dont even let you evade damage and only sidestep works there.

Also: Blocks are very useful in a lot of encounters. Just not for major mechanics but you can block or dodge almost every normal attack and tanks are also doing that.

Quote

- Instant death mechanics, healers are of limited use as a result.

Only failed mechanics result in instant death. You are not supposed to heal through them.

Quote

- Permanent death, so revival skills are of limited use, no resurrections, and mistakes often require intentional group wipes. This is okay in strikes, which are short, but in raids its stressful.

While true other games do not have downstate either and only revive with limitations.

Quote

- No real tanking, as the boss still heavily damages non-tank players. Many raids don't even have tanks and just focus players based upon other criteria instead, making each raid its own learning process.

Which boss does this? The only one i know with heavy raidwide damage is boneskinner and that is not a raidboss. Usually if you take lots of damage you messed something up.

Quote

If you've played any other MMOs, this isn't how raids traditionally work. Almost every game gives the group the option of either being an extremely efficient DPS group or "tankin n' spankin', guaranteeing a clear as long as their coordination is good and how they approach it only determines how long it takes.

Just wrong unless you mean a very small or old mmo. The other big mmos all have dps checks which prevent cheese. FF14 ultimate has been cleared by a full tank group but that made the kill actually a lot harder than a normal comp. Other games do not even allow you to equip tank gear on a dps character.

The only content i know where this applies are the easy mode versions where dps does not matter.

Quote

You may think this is a good thing, but its not. In Guild Wars 2 raids have the same problem as PvP, the devs can't make raids as hard as they possibly could be because there's no way for groups to recover from a snowballing situation. As a result, players can't be tested too much as the only outcome of a series of mistakes (sometimes just one mistake) is complete failure.

 

This is why raids in this game are significantly easier than in other games, yet also much more frustrating. You can't design content that intentionally encourages players to fail right out the door.

Most encounters have been 5manned. Some even lower in the 3 player range. So thats just wrong. Gw2 has downstates. You can still recover from downstates.

The only content were recovering is very hard or not even possible is ht cm. I cleared strike 3 cm with only 5 players or less being alive after the golem. You can recover.

And you can have hard and long encounters without in combat revive. Just add a checkpoint like in ai cm which auto revives the group and adds a checkpoint.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Krzysztof.5973]

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

In other MMOs raids are alot more difficult but not blocking mechanics like resurrection means that you can always clear them given enough time. You don't have to spend several hours typing /gg into chat every time a mistake is made only to walk away without a clear if your group isn't good enough (especially pugs).

Please give me some examples of MMOs with raids that have all of these:
- no enrage timer
- no fight timer
- allow you to resurrect in combat

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Even the healers run glassy builds, because no amount of defense does you any good, even the Protection boon is mostly worthless.

This is just wrong. Sometimes having toughness and protection up will save you from wiping.
 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Strangely enough, even active defenses are also mostly useless, like blind. Only some blocks and evades work, and only on some attacks. The best defense is simply to side step enemy skills,.

How is that a bad thing? Would you like players to spam blind on giant boss so it never hits anyone? Or make every single possible mechanic easily dodgable? This would be the worst idea I have ever seen being brought up on this forum...
 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- Instant death mechanics, healers are of limited use as a result.

- Permanent death, so revival skills are of limited use, no resurrections, and mistakes often require intentional group wipes. This is okay in strikes, which are short, but in raids its stressful.

We have downed state, which majority of MMO do not have. We have ability to pull those in downed state and revive them. This adds depth to combat system. 
Most raid encounters take 2-4min while normal strikes take 2-3min. The difference is not this big when it comes to time required to complete them.  
 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- No real tanking, as the boss still heavily damages non-tank players. Many raids don't even have tanks and just focus players based upon other criteria instead, making each raid its own learning process.

I'm starting do doubt your credentials regarding raids in this game for putting this as a con ...

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

In Guild Wars 2 raids have the same problem as PvP, the devs can't make raids as hard as they possibly could be because there's no way for groups to recover from a snowballing situation. As a result, players can't be tested too much as the only outcome of a series of mistakes (sometimes just one mistake) is complete failure.

If you would let players and and resurrect whenever they wish, raids would not have been any different from open world meta events. Of course you should be punished for making "series of mistakes", how is that a bad thing?
 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I'm a veteran of MMOs for over 20 years, and honestly raids are just bad in this game.

Kormir preserve us...

[Bakeneko.5826]

21 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Please give me some examples of MMOs with raids that have all of these:
- no enrage timer
- no fight timer
- allow you to resurrect in combat

Lineage 2, Ragnorok online, Cabal, any everquest game, quite a few of WoW raids, Dark age of Camelot, Archage, Asherons call, Ultima, Tibia, Phantasy star, FF XI, Flyff, Knight online. That's just the ones I remember having raid bosses (open world or instanced) that didn't have any enrage timer. As long as healers had mana, you could keep fighting.

[Vilin.8056]

51 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Lineage 2, Ragnorok online, Cabal, any everquest game, quite a few of WoW raids, Dark age of Camelot, Archage, Asherons call, Ultima, Tibia, Phantasy star, FF XI, Flyff, Knight online. That's just the ones I remember having raid bosses (open world or instanced) that didn't have any enrage timer. As long as healers had mana, you could keep fighting.

Yeah right, there's enrage timer in the new Phantasy Star Online.

 

And here's a quote about classic WoW and FF11 raids:

  https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Raid#:~:text=A typical World of Warcraft,of one's time as permitted.

"Raiding guilds and time commitment

There is some academic discussion about the concept of raids as they currently are designed in major graphical MMOs, primarily centered on how much of a player's time they consume. A typical World of Warcraft raid can take 3-4 hours once the group is able to complete it, and can take much more time over many sessions to get to that point. Basically, that it can take up as much of one's time as permitted. Generally, though, practical considerations (work/school schedules, fatigue, etc) will place limits on how much time a group spends raiding.

One of the more extreme examples in the history of MMOs is a Final Fantasy XI raid that lasted 18 hours before the players decided to quit.[1]. Many boss fights in World of Warcraft contain an enrage timer to ensure that a single fight does not last too long."

 Basically, you're asking developers to bring back major flaws from very outdated MMOs (Ultima Online, seriously?).

Edited August 16, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

3 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

 A typical World of Warcraft raid can take 3-4 hours once the group is able to complete it, and can take much more time over many sessions to get to that point. Basically, that it can take up as much of one's time as permitted. Generally, though, practical considerations (work/school schedules, fatigue, etc) will place limits on how much time a group spends raiding.

 

One of the more extreme examples in the history of MMOs is a Final Fantasy XI raid that lasted 18 hours before the players decided to quit.[1]. Many boss fights in World of Warcraft contain an enrage timer to ensure that a single fight does not last too long."

 Basically, you're asking developers to bring back major flaws from very outdated MMOs (Ultima Online, seriously?).

Huh , so the enrage timer was not meant to make things more harder or exciting , but to prevent stalemates .

 

(should i propose a system of Asc gear *type of gear (Berseker= x1.5 , Knight= x1.2) *how many pieces you got *how many people have the same = collective points = boss HP ? So no longer raid bosses are killed in 4 min ?

It will help the newbies with their green gears . In easy mode this formula is 1/3 of total hp. Each player points= their social number that the bosses checks and adds up

Or better yet , RNG fights like Soo won ,for CMs,  so don't know and you are your toes all the time =excitement)

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Bakeneko.5826]

3 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Yeah right, there's enrage timer in the new Phantasy Star Online

No in original one. Also - bike was invented in 19th century, but we are still using it. Raid enrage timers are cheap difficulty, when devs need artificial difficulty

[Krzysztof.5973]

4 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Lineage 2, Ragnorok online, Cabal, any everquest game, quite a few of WoW raids, Dark age of Camelot, Archage, Asherons call, Ultima, Tibia, Phantasy star, FF XI, Flyff, Knight online. That's just the ones I remember having raid bosses (open world or instanced) that didn't have any enrage timer. As long as healers had mana, you could keep fighting.

Open world "raids" is not what is being discussed here. 
Lineage 2 had open world bosses (running around with a boss for 20-40min sounds fun)
I'll give you Ragnarok online 
Cabal doesn't have raids, only open world bosses which had a timer, also dungeons had a timer
Everquest raids have enrage 
WoW raids have enrage
Archeage "raids" are open world I'm pretty sure
Asheron's call is also OW I think
Ultima, Tibia, Knight online... really?
FFXI had timers
Flyff Don't know

And as was mentioned:

4 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Basically, you're asking developers to bring back major flaws from very outdated MMOs

Timers and enrage ensure that fight doesn't last hours or can be cheesed by having all-healers comp.