[Theorycrafting] What if Mirage was more like DrD or Vindicator?

[Xaylin.1860]

Recently, there have been discussions on the forums regarding how powerful Mirage dodge and the spec overall is compared to DrD and Vindicator. Personally, while Vindicator in itself is quite messy, I feel like the trait set up is much cleaner and easier to balance because you have a more pronounced distinction between offensive and defensive builds due to the GMs. This is similar on DrD. Ontop of that you don't have the issue of a secondary mechanic being locked behind the dodge (here: Ambushes). Which made me think about how Mirage would look with a similar set up. As a result, I wanted to not only to slightly tune traits, rearrange some effects (e.g. Weakness) and make an effort and incorporate Ambushes into the class mechanic: Shatters. I also wanted to reduce the range/variance of access to Mirage Cloak among Mirage builds to make the class overall easier to balance. I avoided introducing new mechanics to keep it simple and tried to not take away too much from what we've got at the moment - which also means less work on ANets side. Not meaning no work at all. But I'd consider it to be less extensive than a complete rework of Mirage mechanics. Meaning within the sphere of possibilities. Numbers are up for debate, of course. But this thread is more about the overall idea rather than balancing or creating new meta builds.

Overall changes/assumptions

• Shatters now grant access to Ambush attacks for 1.5s (like Mirage Cloak). 0.5s additional seconds per Illusion shattered. This is done to decouple dodging and Ambush attacks. Neither Thief nor Untamed are as handicapped by how Ambushs are set up as Mirage is (overall access to triggers plus attack window). There is just no reason to design it this way. It also accounts for the fact that Mirrors no longer grant Mirage Cloak (s. below). The additional duration (attack window) makes the gameplay a bit less predictable in a good way because the player has a longer time to act.
• Mirage Mirrors no longer grant Mirage Cloak or cause Weakness. They refill Endurance and cripple foes instead. This is done to limit Mirage Cloak access to mostly the Dodge (still got Illusionary Ambush). While this also reduces diversity and lowers the ceiling it also makes it more manageable to balance Mirage.
• Mirage will have 1 dodge in all game modes by default. Trade off. Yadda yadda.

Trait changes

As mentioned in the intro, the idea is to set up three different roles via GM like it is the case on DrD and Vindicator. There will be ways to regain Endurance or improve Endurance regeneration mostly on the Adept tier to enable Mirages to dodge more often in certain scenarios based on their favored playstyle without being able to frontload damage or effects due to only having one dodge. Traits on the master tier will complement each role further but are supposed to be a bit more diverse so they can still appeal to different playstyles. The overall roles or focusses are: (condition/hybrid) damage, boon support and bruiser/self-sustain.

Adept

• Mirage Cloak – Additional facts added (Ambushs via Shatters etc.). Mirage Cloak now grants increased movement speed by default.

 

• Riddle of Sand – Ambush attacks cause confusion and grant Endurance per foe hit.
• Renewing Oasis – Gaining Mirage Cloak or evading an attack grants nearby allies Regeneration and Vigor. No longer reduces incomming condition duration.
• Self Deception – If no Illusion is created, gain Endurance instead. Alternative, if too complicated (programming): Mirrors grant additional Endurance.

Master

• Nomad's Endurance – No longer grants a damage bonus. Instead, it heals the Mirage for a small amount when gaining Vigor. Alternative: Heal periodically while affacted by Vigor (think Rugged Growth). I'm just not a fan of stat bonuses via boons. Even less so if they just don't make sense like this one (neither theme nor that a defensive boon grants an offensive benefit).

 

• Mirrored Axes – No longer reduces axe cooldown. Instead grants condition damage with an additional bonus when whielding an axe (e.g. +120 and +120). This change is made to make the trait more appealing as damage trait despite the weapon choice. Also makes up for the change on Nomads Endurance.
• Mirage Mantle – Gaining Mirage Cloak or evading an attack grants nearby allies Protection.
• Desert Distortion – Gaining Distortion or Aegis grants access to Ambush attacks. Ambush attacks weaken nearby foes. Weakened foes deal less damage to you. No longer creates Mirrors on F4.

Grandmaster

• Speed of Sand – Gain increased movement speed when your Endurance is not full. While this is powerful in combat, it discourages saving up your Endurance. Even when disengaging Mirages will have to determine whether to go for movement speed or avoiding attacks via dodging. The amount is debatable. Considering it is conditional, it could be at 33% (compare to Natural Stride). Alternative if too complicated: Gain Swiftness when gaining Vigor. Or: Gain Swiftness when shattering (s. Willbender).

 

• Infinite Horizon – Considering the lower access to Mirage Cloak, e.g., significantly less Clone Ambushes, this trait needs an additional effect. I prefer improved Ambush attacks (e.g. more damage or debuffing conditions) but I guess yet another boring temporal damage boost would work as well. E.g. "Shattering an Illusion grants..." (think Deadly Blades).
• Dune Cloak – Gaining Mirage Cloak or evadin an attack grants nearby allies Alacrity. Your next successful ambush attack grants additional boons to nearby allies. Possible boons: GS = Might (power Might option), Sw = Fury, St = Alacrity (no longer provides by default Might), Sc = Might (condi Might option), Axe = Vigor, Spear = Fury, Trident = Alacrity. Staff would remain the Alacrity stick. But Staff/Staff won't be as necessary anymore.
• Elusive Mind – Gaining Mirage Cloak or evading an attack removes conditions. Endurance on you is more effective.

 

What do you guys think? Would this set up be fun? Does it make sense? Is it better or worse than what we've got at the moment? Is it worth removing the current IH-set up?

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Xaylin.1860
Font color

[phokus.8934]

Black text on dark background make for bad reads.

[Xaylin.1860]

Sorry, I posted on my desktop without specific font color and no dark mode. Not sure what went wrong. I'll try to fix it later. Thanks for telling.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Xaylin.1860
Should be readable now? Thanks again.

[Salt Mode.3780]

The only issue with these changes is if you make Mirage a shatter base spec then it will compete with both Chrono and Core making Mirage perform better. Both Chrono and Core dont have ambush after shatter. The biggest distinction between Mirage vs other Mesmer spec is that it is a passive gameplay rather then Chrono that is an active gameplay. What I mean is, the original design for Chrono is the more you shatter the more you get refunded via Alacrity. Whereas Mirage is you want to keep your clones up as much as possible or else its a DPS loss is most cases.

Which is why most people are upset with Virtuoso because essentially it is a nerfed version of Core and Chrono when it comes to Shatter damage, at least in competitive play, and it's identity in terms of functionality is the same except you are ranged/projectile. The only reason why Virtuoso is top in PvE is because Chrono got nerfed repeatedly. If they were to make Virtuoso the "premier" shatter spec, they did a horrible job because often not your shatters are not off cooldown yet while you have resources piling up.

If you were to compare all 3 e-specs at release it is night a day that Virtuoso will never be able to compete with Chrono or Mirage in a spot in a comped group. It seems to be a trending pattern to nerf the e-spec before the expansion comes out to make the new e-spec shine.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Veprovina.4876]

Deception skills needed to be new "shatters" and mirage needed to lose the ability to shatter at all, then they needed to make new utility skills to fit. 

"Yet another shatter spec" isn't the way to go. I mean, they're all shatter specs, even if mirage doesn't want to shatter most of the time... They even made Virtuoso a shatter spec. They never changed how our class works with any of the elites so why make another shatter? I like some of the ideas though.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 7/31/2022 at 6:09 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

The only issue with these changes is if you make Mirage a shatter base spec then it will compete with both Chrono and Core making Mirage perform better. Both Chrono and Core dont have ambush after shatter.

This is true although the 1 dodge should theoretically make up for it. It's probably not enough.

On 7/31/2022 at 6:09 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Whereas Mirage is you want to keep your clones up as much as possible or else its a DPS loss is most cases.

I agree. However, this would only be possible with a way bigger rework on Mirage. For example in a way like @Veprovina.4876and others before have mentioned. Like making Deceptions the new Shatter.

20 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yet another shatter spec" isn't the way to go.

Agree as well. But if a complete overhaul was out of the picture: Would you prefer a slight rework that includes the class mechanic or stay with the status quo? Think low hanging fruits ANet might be willing to pick up. Heck, even if nothing changed with Shatters/Ambush skills, I'd still argue that Mirrors have to go because it causes such am imbalance within the spec. It is just so discouraging how e-specs on Mesmer have developed.

 

If I were to simply make a wish for distinguishable playstyles: Chrono with Chronophantasma as Minor, Mirage with IH as Minor and go for from there. Virtuoso I could not care less. It is shiny but lacks any uniquess aside from the upgrade in resource management. I still think it was a missed opportunity that they didn't make those shatters ground targeted instead of slapping Psionics onto Virtuoso. Funnily enough: Similar scenario as on Mirage. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

To be honest, what they should've done with Mirage is make IH part of the kit. Then for grandmaster traits you can either have your clones do support effects or damage not both. So for example those who want support Mirage can choose a trait that gives everyone buffs/heals where as if someone wants to do DPS it will give clones condition damage and last trait give power coefficients. 

As far as how buffs/heal are applied for example on sword ambush or GS, it will be around the user and clone, rather then giving it a boon that stacks give it stuff that only stacks duration so stuff like sword clones will benefit more vs staff clones.

The concept of Mirage is it's name, you see a mirage in the desert you try to go for it but there is nothing, which is the concept of Mirage cloak. Not being able to touch what is there. 

 

[Yoci.2481]

To be honest what they really need to do is hire five experienced people for three months to do a complete redesign of all of Mesmer, from the ground up, with all game modes in mind. I estimate the cost for that to be around $150,000. Either we crowd fund this and convince the ones in charge of the devs, or it will not happen.

 

So it will not happen and we will have to live with this patchwork of a profession.

[Xaylin.1860]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:34 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

To be honest, what they should've done with Mirage is make IH part of the kit. Then for grandmaster traits you can either have your clones do support effects or damage not both. So for example those who want support Mirage can choose a trait that gives everyone buffs/heals where as if someone wants to do DPS it will give clones condition damage and last trait give power coefficients. 

Yes, this is something I would have liked. But it would still have to incorpirate Shatters somehow, e.g. replacing them by Deceptions.

 

21 hours ago, Yoci.2481 said:

So it will not happen and we will have to live with this patchwork of a profession.

It is probably indeed unlikely. I don't remember ANet ever mechanically changing anything about any e-specs. The biggest thing probably was locking Bursts behind Berserk on Warrior.

Still... felt like making a write up. Sometimes stuff sticks. And sometimes you just have to cry loud enough. Cough. Banners 🙄😅

[Veprovina.4876]

On 8/1/2022 at 6:21 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

Agree as well. But if a complete overhaul was out of the picture: Would you prefer a slight rework that includes the class mechanic or stay with the status quo? Think low hanging fruits ANet might be willing to pick up. Heck, even if nothing changed with Shatters/Ambush skills, I'd still argue that Mirrors have to go because it causes such am imbalance within the spec. It is just so discouraging how e-specs on Mesmer have developed.

 

If I were to simply make a wish for distinguishable playstyles: Chrono with Chronophantasma as Minor, Mirage with IH as Minor and go for from there. Virtuoso I could not care less. It is shiny but lacks any uniquess aside from the upgrade in resource management. I still think it was a missed opportunity that they didn't make those shatters ground targeted instead of slapping Psionics onto Virtuoso. Funnily enough: Similar scenario as on Mirage. 

Sorry, didn't look at forums for a while, i missed the quote.

 

Once again we're talking about hypothetical situations where anet has to nerf something in order to give us something, and won't rework what's needed.

 

And you know what?

As long as Firebrand and Mechanist exist in the state they do - having base kits that replace 5 other professions by themselves - i'm 100% against any argument that mesmers can't be reworked, or stuff added without having to take something away.

 

Give mirage the second dodge, give chrono what it lost and it still won't be nearly as ridiculous as untraited firebrand is by default.

When they nerf those, i can accept arguments to otherwise.

But right now, i see no reason why mesmers couldn't be reworked for the better, or just buffed in the base kit.

[Mell.4873]

13 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Give mirage the second dodge, give chrono what it lost and it still won't be nearly as ridiculous as untraited firebrand is by default.

When they nerf those, i can accept arguments to otherwise.

But right now, i see no reason why mesmers couldn't be reworked for the better, or just buffed in the base kit.

Something will always be on top, I'm sure they see a much bigger picture than we do. I mean the changes made to spirits and banners where inline with there play time, outside raids running them made 0 sense when Quickness and Alacrity existed.

[Salt Mode.3780]

I guess not everyone can read or if they do read unable to comprehend the text...

[Veprovina.4876]

12 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Something will always be on top, I'm sure they see a much bigger picture than we do. I mean the changes made to spirits and banners where inline with there play time, outside raids running them made 0 sense when Quickness and Alacrity existed.

Oh we saw the bigger picture last patch. 

 

The bigger picture is, devs play Firebrand and Mechanist therefore those two only get buffs. 

Every other "balance" is done by looking at the wiki cause the balance team doesn't even know what skills other classes have. 

 

That's the bigger picture. That the balance team should have been fired because they do balance based on personal preference. 

 

So you can cut the crap and your blind idolizing of Anet, they proved they're incompetent to make a balanced system, have some self respect.