The biggest reason I don't like GW2's more complex map designs

[Labjax.2465]

It's not actually that they are confusing or require learning where to go. It's the mob placement design.

In some MMOs, mobs are placed in such a way that you can develop a feel for where they are in relation to each other and find that space inbetween to move where you won't aggro them. In GW2, in expansion zones, mobs seem deliberately placed to give you little reprieve and no real way to avoid them.

The result is if I'm lost and I want to get my bearings, I often have to deal with aggro. Now I can't focus on my surroundings, I can't focus on the map, I have to focus on killing some mobs (who prob aren't even that hard to kill) just so I can settle down and focus on where to go next. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not conducive to learning and it just causes me to avoid the more complex map designs as much as possible.

What if...?

One time on the subreddit I saw some people talking about mounts and if there were any others they'd like to see in the game. IIRC, some people suggested some kind of salamander type thing with stealth and wall climbing.

What if there was a mount (in PvE) that could keep you stealthed as long as you aren't moving. For those of us who are directionally-challenged, this could make it easier to traverse the more complex maps without worrying as much about aggro. You come to a stop to get your bearings and as long as you don't have a million projectiles heading your way, you can hide in stealth while you figure out where to go next.

This could help us without negatively impacting anyone who enjoys the more complex map designs; no changes to the maps themselves or mob placement even enters the picture.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

There's already a mastery that gives stealth to all mounts, 8 seconds of stealth (that's a lot of time for these super fast mounts), plus 1 stack of stability, and only on a 30 second CD.

Biggest problem thou, is that this mastery is from LW Season 5 (or Icebrood Saga), so most people will get it kinda late in the game, but it can be usefull for Cantha, and/or if you want to replay HoT/PoF with other characters, since all masteries are account wide.

[AliamRationem.5172]

I think a mount that stealths while not moving is a potentially cool idea.  Having said that, I think it would help a lot more if they just reduced the aggro range in PoF onward.  HoT maps are fine.  Most mobs aggro from 600 range and are easily avoided even on foot without having to kill every mob within a square mile just to catch your breath.  In PoF you're constantly having to clear to get any space from mobs that attack from a mile away.

[Labjax.2465]

11 minutes ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

There's already a mastery that gives stealth to all mounts, 8 seconds of stealth (that's a lot of time for these super fast mounts), plus 1 stack of stability, and only on a 30 second CD.

Biggest problem thou, is that this mastery is from LW Season 5 (or Icebrood Saga), so most people will get it kinda late in the game, but it can be usefull for Cantha, and/or if you want to replay HoT/PoF with other characters, since all masteries are account wide.

I have that mastery and it's definitely useful, but it doesn't really help with what I'm describing... least not for me. It could be 60 seconds and it still wouldn't help because it's going to time out and the point here is I want to be able to focus on getting my bearings, not focus on aggro and when I'm going to have to kill mobs next.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Sobx.1758]

36 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It's not actually that they are confusing or require learning where to go. It's the mob placement design.

In some MMOs, mobs are placed in such a way that you can develop a feel for where they are in relation to each other and find that space inbetween to move where you won't aggro them. In GW2, in expansion zones, mobs seem deliberately placed to give you little reprieve and no real way to avoid them.

The result is if I'm lost and I want to get my bearings, I often have to deal with aggro. Now I can't focus on my surroundings, I can't focus on the map, I have to focus on killing some mobs (who prob aren't even that hard to kill) just so I can settle down and focus on where to go next. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not conducive to learning and it just causes me to avoid the more complex map designs as much as possible.

What if...?

One time on the subreddit I saw some people talking about mounts and if there were any others they'd like to see in the game. IIRC, some people suggested some kind of salamander type thing with stealth and wall climbing.

What if there was a mount (in PvE) that could keep you stealthed as long as you aren't moving. For those of us who are directionally-challenged, this could make it easier to traverse the more complex maps without worrying as much about aggro. You come to a stop to get your bearings and as long as you don't have a million projectiles heading your way, you can hide in stealth while you figure out where to go next.

This could help us without negatively impacting anyone who enjoys the more complex map designs; no changes to the maps themselves or mob placement even enters the picture.

Another idea based on an intent to bascially skip playing/interacting with the game. Can't say it makes sense to me.

There are safe places if you just need to stand and focus, you just can't exactly do it in the middle of mobs.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Farohna.6247]

Someone's been playing ARK...

[Ashen.2907]

47 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

It's not actually that they are confusing or require learning where to go. It's the mob placement design.

In some MMOs, mobs are placed in such a way that you can develop a feel for where they are in relation to each other and find that space inbetween to move where you won't aggro them. In GW2, in expansion zones, mobs seem deliberately placed to give you little reprieve and no real way to avoid them.

The result is if I'm lost and I want to get my bearings, I often have to deal with aggro. Now I can't focus on my surroundings, I can't focus on the map, I have to focus on killing some mobs (who prob aren't even that hard to kill) just so I can settle down and focus on where to go next. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's not conducive to learning and it just causes me to avoid the more complex map designs as much as possible.

What if...?

One time on the subreddit I saw some people talking about mounts and if there were any others they'd like to see in the game. IIRC, some people suggested some kind of salamander type thing with stealth and wall climbing.

What if there was a mount (in PvE) that could keep you stealthed as long as you aren't moving. For those of us who are directionally-challenged, this could make it easier to traverse the more complex maps without worrying as much about aggro. You come to a stop to get your bearings and as long as you don't have a million projectiles heading your way, you can hide in stealth while you figure out where to go next.

This could help us without negatively impacting anyone who enjoys the more complex map designs; no changes to the maps themselves or mob placement even enters the picture.

Can you hover out of aggro range on a Skyscale?

[Labjax.2465]

17 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Someone's been playing ARK...

Does ARK have such a thing? Not sure I've even heard of the game.

[Labjax.2465]

19 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Can you hover out of aggro range on a Skyscale?

Depends on the map. Some areas, skyscale helps. Some areas like certain parts of TD, it's not even that practical to use skyscale and the ceilings are pretty low. I use skyscale a lot because of its aggro-dodging ability with hover distance, tbh. But it's not that great for all the starting and stopping of navigation, if I don't know where to go. More useful if I do know where to go and don't want to deal with mobs.

[Farohna.6247]

4 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Does ARK have such a thing? Not sure I've even heard of the game.

It does, there is a rock drake that can be tamed.  It can high speed glide, stick to and go on all surfaces with ease, and can stealth.  Very different game from GW2, but essentially your description of a salamander style mount sounds very similar.  Guessing might have some players familiar with it on reddit.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Farohna.6247

[Randulf.7614]

Isn’t there a stealth kit from a heart in one of the Ascalon maps for the order of whispers? I forget it’s name, but I’m sure it’s like a gadget which gives you temporary stealth

 

One of the issues of bypassing mobs is something I noticed heavily in EoD - people don’t work together to overcome the obstacles. Instead if they see someone fighting, they will just run on. Back in the early HoT days, players would more often than not work together to overcome obstacles. Nowadays, it’s rarer and players develop more tunnel vision. I totally get the desire to focus on exploring and as maps age it becomes harder to find players, but the more ways to skip over content, the more I believe it’s harmful to the open world experience.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[AHITCZ.5694]

They could also introduce a cloak, which would fit in a new equipment slot. This cloak would be obtainable by completing an achievement that involves core Tyria. It will grant stealth as long as you are not moving and already out of combat. Then, they can even introduce some skins for customization purposes for those who want unique looks.

Edited July 30, 2022 by AHITCZ.5694

[Ashen.2907]

12 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Depends on the map. Some areas, skyscale helps. Some areas like certain parts of TD, it's not even that practical to use skyscale and the ceilings are pretty low. I use skyscale a lot because of its aggro-dodging ability with hover distance, tbh. But it's not that great for all the starting and stopping of navigation, if I don't know where to go. More useful if I do know where to go and don't want to deal with mobs.

I see. I don't have the Skyscale so wasn't sure how effective it would be in addressing your concern.

 

Regardless, I think the idea of a chameleon mount is interesting. What if it had the climbing ability, stealth while motionless (or moving at  no more than a walk speed), but didn't provide a speed buff? 

[Sobx.1758]

7 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Isn’t there a stealth kit from a heart in one of the Ascalon maps for the order of whispers? I forget it’s name, but I’m sure it’s like a gadget which gives you temporary stealth

Yup, there is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Camouflage_(Ash_Legion_Spy_Kit)

But from what I understand, he wants an infinite safe afk in the middle of mobs/events item, while this one is 10s.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Randulf.7614]

1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yup, there is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Camouflage_(Ash_Legion_Spy_Kit)

But from what I understand, he wants an infinite safe afk in the middle of mobs/events item.

Ok. I fully understand why, but it does feel like a request that goes against the spirit of the game and it’s design.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Ok. I fully understand why, but it does feel like a request that goes against the spirit of the game and it’s design.

Yes, I agree.

[Labjax.2465]

54 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I see. I don't have the Skyscale so wasn't sure how effective it would be in addressing your concern.

 

Regardless, I think the idea of a chameleon mount is interesting. What if it had the climbing ability, stealth while motionless (or moving at  no more than a walk speed), but didn't provide a speed buff? 

Interesting, so you're saying like what if the tradeoff was it's stealthy (and can climb walls) but also slower than other mounts? (to the point of running speed?) I could certainly live with the drop in speed for the benefit of exploration/wayfinding.

[LSD.4673]

You'll figure out aggro range eventually. Then you just stand where they aren't gonna go for you. Easy.

HoT maps are meant to be dangerous. Go to another map for repreive.

[Linken.6345]

34 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Interesting, so you're saying like what if the tradeoff was it's stealthy (and can climb walls) but also slower than other mounts? (to the point of running speed?) I could certainly live with the drop in speed for the benefit of exploration/wayfinding.

Nope they said walk speed thats way less then running speed.

There is a toggle walk button you can find and press to see how slow that would be mate.

[Sunchaser.9854]

Might be a late thing, but if you level the jackal enough to get the evasion, mounts like skimmers and griffons can basically evade most mobs just by hovering or evading using their ability key which dramatically reduces knockdowns significantly.

 

After I got my Springer griffon with evasion, knockdowns went from a hourly minor annoyance to a "oh yeah. I remember when those used to happen weeks ago!" moment. Minus map reading breaks. XD. 

[Linken.6345]

20 minutes ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Might be a late thing, but if you level the jackal enough to get the evasion, mounts like skimmers and griffons can basically evade most mobs just by hovering or evading using their ability key which dramatically reduces knockdowns significantly.

 

After I got my Springer griffon with evasion, knockdowns went from a hourly minor annoyance to a "oh yeah. I remember when those used to happen weeks ago!" moment. Minus map reading breaks. XD. 

Yes except these dont work when the OP want to stand still anywhere in game for 20-30 minutes looking at the map mate.

[DexterousGecko.6328]

It is obnoxious sometimes how there are so many enemies spaced EXACTLY perfectly so you are constantly either in aggro, or having to fight. No, it's not game breaking, but it's a little strange. 80% (pulling that number out of my kitten) of a map being aggro is a little over the top.

[Labjax.2465]

2 minutes ago, DexterousGecko.6328 said:

It is obnoxious sometimes how there are so many enemies spaced EXACTLY perfectly so you are constantly either in aggro, or having to fight. No, it's not game breaking, but it's a little strange. 80% (pulling that number out of my kitten) of a map being aggro is a little over the top.

Yeah, I guess it's just the style they want GW2 to be. Cause like, even jumping puzzles often have mobs in them.

So I'd be good with a workaround like I suggested in the OP without anyone who likes that design being impacted.

But yeah, like for comparative experience, I vaguely recall in 3 different MMOs: SWG, Rift, and SWTOR, all having design where the spacing of mobs was such that you can more readily see the gaps and squeak through. That's what I remember anyway, been some time with the first two.

[Sunchaser.9854]

48 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yes except these dont work when the OP want to stand still anywhere in game for 20-30 minutes looking at the map mate.

Oh fair yeah. if you want to sit for like 10-30 minutes doing nothing, your only choices are like skyscale hovering or quickly tabbing out to character select, or entering the pvp lobby for a free anywhere Bank/TP break that teleports you back when done. 

 

Honestly as mentioned, springer griff and pvp lobby is comfy enough but you're never going to hover midair stationary with a griffon lmao. One of the defining features of Skyscale is being able to hover midair. Might be a good choice for op if they're willing to do that painful awful horrible grind?

I concede that point. Still. it kinda seems paradoxical making the new player friendly use mount have a like 800 part scavenger hunt collection over 40 continents that can take hours on foot vs minutes on griffon. (Climbing up a mountain, manually by springer, finding manual skyscale points, climbing to one, and then having to parkour up 20 giant mountains vs ziplining spot to spot with a masteried griffon) seemed jarring.

The skyscale is probably the most casual friendly to use mount, timegated with a 800 part scavenger hunt x 5 from purgatory grind out there. It really makes no sense why they locked it so much. People wonder why i still camp +20-30% mount energy regen griffon so much. But i like just having to do 2-3 springer hops and being able to zipline anywhere i want on the map with springer griffon on hills or roller beetle long distances on flats. It doesn't make sense why the casual friendly mount has so much of a time gate behind it.

 

But i notice myself constantly dismounting the demo skyscale just to griffon places faster. So i'm in no rush for the grind on radial mounts.  (One button selects any mount you want and i have it set to "remember last" and one normal mount button so i can easily pick dual mounts at ease) 

[Valisha.8650]

I agree, mob aggro is stupid in plenty of cases