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I don't want to be rude, but the writing...


Greencactaur.4396

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10 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

But this is meant to be a fantasy game. The writers just can't write outside of American pop culture.

 

It's not just that the dialogue is written around US pop culture, at times it's also pretty juvenile at times and they REALLY need a thesaurus.

I actually complained about this years ago as well when the dialogue was driving me nuts, paraphrasing -

"Okay, I think we're ok. Are you ok? Yes I'm ok. Ok then, let's go. Ok!" 

 

Seriously Anet, is the occasional "alright", "very well" or even "fine" too much to ask?

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The dialogue is really sappy and makes me feel like I'm reading someone's Wizards of the Coast fanfiction or something .  I took a really long break from the game after having to hear Kralkatorrik's "she's weak, no she's strong, she's worse than us, no actually she's better" monologue about Aurene while she just flapped around calling him 'Uncle'.

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10 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

^ The US soldier speaks is what makes me want to bury my face in acid.

"you take point and lay down suppressing fire while recon team charlie neutralises the hostile outpost"

Yes, we all played Call of Duty. But this is meant to be a fantasy game. The writers just can't write outside of American pop culture.

 

That is not "US soldier speak"

Brevity codes have been in use since the ancient Roman Legions.  Referring to key strategic points and signaling actions has been around since the first professional military (Roman legions) in the world, at least as early as 400 bc.  Roman centurions usually used whistles to provide signal commands to their legionnaires, but it's essentially the same thing, which is a brevity code.

Suppressing fire has been around for just as long.  Archers would use volley fire to either disrupt an enemy advance or deter any advancement.  Again, this is not new stuff.   

Call of Duty is no where close to anything remotely accurate.  For example, we really don't yell "oscar mike."  To conflate CoD dialogue with the real thing is a huge mistake.  Don't do that.

Brevity codes and actions reporting is not unique to the US.  I have fought with allied forces of other nations and it's all the same thing.  That's because it's a system that has worked for at least 2200 years.  The only thing that has changed is the technology behind communication.  We don't use whistles anymore.  Or smoke signals.  

 

To bring this all back to GW2, I would expect a military as professional as the Charr legions to use brevity codes and actions reporting.   They are technologically and civically more advanced than the Romans.  I would also expect other organizations who work with the Charr legions to pick up on the same usage of brevity codes and actions reporting.  Especially considering the origins of the Vigil.  

 

In short, that kind of speech has been around for thousands of years and is nothing new, nor out of place in GW2.

 

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6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

There's some really good writing that has been targeted at even younger.

Yes, the vast majority of writing in the tween market is drivel. That's just as true, however, of adult markets.

I'd chalk it up to "MMO writing" more than the target age. I don't expect hiring A tier writers is a budget priority for most MMOs.


I feel like a good portion of The mmorpg structure is that players want gameplay, not cutscenes. But a lot of the most dramatic scenes usually require for there to be a soundtrack and for us to be watchers, not acters for a character death to have impact. 

 

There's usually hit or miss things in every show, but one of the examples of a tragic dark story that can be found in a initially children targeted Anime / Shonen can be found in one of the first early Episodes of Naruto. Where Zabuza, a Ruthless assassin is there to kill Kakashi's team. He's hardened, cold. Ruthless. Yet despite all this, Haku clings onto him because even if Zabuza only sees Haku as a mere tool. Haku was born abandoned in the remains of war and only merely wishes to belong to someone. 

 

 

Eventually at the end, Zabuza lies nearly dead, comatose on a battlefield. Limping and barely alive while Haku stands dead after protecting him. To him, it was just a meaningless existence. He was a tool. And his END had just merely came to be, as all shinobi he was raised to believe should be. 

He simply tries to not care about Haku, to disregard them as a tool who considered him the same. But he can tell he's lying through his teeth as he starts to lament his memories of the past. His betrayal, his rise, his fall. The powerful soundtrack evokes memories and sadness as Zabuza's past flies beyond his life and he erupts weeping in tearful sorrow.

For although he lived his life as a tool, Haku cared for him enough to be his only for them to still just die in the end. Having nothing left to fight for, he burns himself fighting against the very creature that hired him, and betrayed him...

Instead of coming back to life. The story ends with both Zabuza and his remorseful partner Haku dead. Not being the protagonist named Naruto, his story simply ends dead. Forgotten in a grave. No dragon balls, no resurrection jutsu. The only thing he can fight for is vengeance on everyone who used him in the end...  It's a sad story people gloss over. Turning a villain that'd other be a mook in most other shows into a sad and tragic character as you see his character develop from ruthless assassin to remorseful avenger with his very last breath. 

 

Meanwhile GW2 When you lock learning about characters in 50$ dlc when the game can be 15-50$... And Aurene being BORN is in dlc. 

 

 

Edited by Sunchaser.9854
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16 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

That is not "US soldier speak"

Brevity codes have been in use since the ancient Roman Legions.  Referring to key strategic points and signaling actions has been around since the first professional military (Roman legions) in the world, at least as early as 400 bc.  Roman centurions usually used whistles to provide signal commands to their legionnaires, but it's essentially the same thing, which is a brevity code.

Suppressing fire has been around for just as long.  Archers would use volley fire to either disrupt an enemy advance or deter any advancement.  Again, this is not new stuff.   

Call of Duty is no where close to anything remotely accurate.  For example, we really don't yell "oscar mike."  To conflate CoD dialogue with the real thing is a huge mistake.  Don't do that.

Brevity codes and actions reporting is not unique to the US.  I have fought with allied forces of other nations and it's all the same thing.  That's because it's a system that has worked for at least 2200 years.  The only thing that has changed is the technology behind communication.  We don't use whistles anymore.  Or smoke signals.  

 

To bring this all back to GW2, I would expect a military as professional as the Charr legions to use brevity codes and actions reporting.   They are technologically and civically more advanced than the Romans.  I would also expect other organizations who work with the Charr legions to pick up on the same usage of brevity codes and actions reporting.  Especially considering the origins of the Vigil.  

 

In short, that kind of speech has been around for thousands of years and is nothing new, nor out of place in GW2.

 

There is a difference between brevity speak as a concept and specifically modern sounding such.

Professional armies predate the Romans by a very large margin.

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11 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Professional armies predate the Romans by a very large margin.

Great catch!  Thanks

Looked it up.  The Akkadian Empire (approximately 730 bc) had an actual, professional military.  The other bronze age civilizations used drafts to form armies as needed, which is not a professional military.  But the Akkadians did have one.

16 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

There is a difference between brevity speak as a concept and specifically modern sounding such.

 

The GW2 dialogue does not sound like modern brevity comms.  That is not at all how we sound over tacsat or squad comms.

 

But I get it, you want old-timey sounding words.  I guess ArenaNet could do some research into the military notekeeping of Roman Legates to get an idea of how old timey brevity calls sound.  Either way, the current implementation does not sound like modern brevity calls, because it just isn't the same.  I have yet to hear any video game, movie, or tv show get it right.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

That is not "US soldier speak"

Brevity codes have been in use since the ancient Roman Legions.  Referring to key strategic points and signaling actions has been around since the first professional military (Roman legions) in the world, at least as early as 400 bc.  Roman centurions usually used whistles to provide signal commands to their legionnaires, but it's essentially the same thing, which is a brevity code.

Suppressing fire has been around for just as long.  Archers would use volley fire to either disrupt an enemy advance or deter any advancement.  Again, this is not new stuff.   

Call of Duty is no where close to anything remotely accurate.  For example, we really don't yell "oscar mike."  To conflate CoD dialogue with the real thing is a huge mistake.  Don't do that.

Brevity codes and actions reporting is not unique to the US.  I have fought with allied forces of other nations and it's all the same thing.  That's because it's a system that has worked for at least 2200 years.  The only thing that has changed is the technology behind communication.  We don't use whistles anymore.  Or smoke signals.  

 

To bring this all back to GW2, I would expect a military as professional as the Charr legions to use brevity codes and actions reporting.   They are technologically and civically more advanced than the Romans.  I would also expect other organizations who work with the Charr legions to pick up on the same usage of brevity codes and actions reporting.  Especially considering the origins of the Vigil.  

 

In short, that kind of speech has been around for thousands of years and is nothing new, nor out of place in GW2.

 

It definitely hasn't been around for thousands of years though. And even if it had, that stuff is what's used in armies on Earth. In the Western world, specifically. There's nothing differentiating a Tyrian from a Westerner in our world, because every character is written as though they grew up in U S and A. They even use English turns of phrase.

Signalling has been around for millennia. Coded euphemistic speech is a distinctly American thing. "Insurgents", "surgical strikes", "suppressing fire", "take point". These are WW2-onwards terms. From war with, y'know, fire arms: weapons that need ignition for a chemical reaction to launch a projectile. Doesn't all of Tyria's stuff just run on make-believe and magic? So why would they say "suppressing fire"? Why would they use American colloquialisms? 

It's all just...lazy. "I'll take point with my sword and shield and use suppressing fire by bashing them on the head!"

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30 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

It definitely hasn't been around for thousands of years though. And even if it had, that stuff is what's used in armies on Earth. In the Western world, specifically. There's nothing differentiating a Tyrian from a Westerner in our world, because every character is written as though they grew up in U S and A. They even use English turns of phrase.

Signalling has been around for millennia. Coded euphemistic speech is a distinctly American thing. "Insurgents", "surgical strikes", "suppressing fire", "take point". These are WW2-onwards terms. From war with, y'know, fire arms: weapons that need ignition for a chemical reaction to launch a projectile. Doesn't all of Tyria's stuff just run on make-believe and magic? So why would they say "suppressing fire"? Why would they use American colloquialisms? 

It's all just...lazy. "I'll take point with my sword and shield and use suppressing fire by bashing them on the head!"

 

Take point is as old as the rank of 2nd Spear Centurion.  Like the point of a spear.

Surgical strike is one I get.  Surgery hasn't been a precise thing for very long (relatively).  

Fire  is still valid.   GW2 uses black powder weapons, which requires thermal energy to create an exothermic reaction to propel a projectile with deadly force.    Tyrians can also, literally, rain fire down on enemies.  

It [coded euphemistic speech] is not unique to the western hemisphere of Earth.  I know this from first hand experience.  The point of brevity calls is to clearly communicate information in the fewest syllables without any misunderstanding.  This has been an important part of warfare for millennia.   Often, euphemisms replace technical terms, for the sake of brevity.

It has been around since at least the Roman times.  The Romans also utilized encrypted communications.  Insurgencies/rebellions are nothing new, and have been complained about by Persian kings, especially in blaming Byzantium for insurgencies with the Hephtalites.

War with firearms has been around for centuries.  Japanese armies used arquebuses during the Sengoku Jidai.   Japan's war with Korea, right afterwards, demonstrated that Korea's use of naval cannons overpowered the Japanese fleet, even though the Japanese fleet heavily outnumbered the Korean's.   The use of the word "fire" in this context is not an American thing.  It predates WWII.

 

Instead of fire, though, what would be a good thing for them to say?  Propel? Launch? Initiate? 

Instead of suppressing fire, what can they say to indicate the need for an execution of a barrage of projectiles meant to suppress enemy maneuvering?  Barraging launch?  Hindering loose?  

 

Where you see laziness, I see a shortage of options.  Also, this kind of communication is not distinctly American, nor is it present only in the Western Hemisphere, nor is it uniquely developed in the Western hemisphere (Sun Tzu anyone?).    I get that it's not good to have dialogue that breaks immersion, but this is a particular point where I don't really see other viable options to get the same messages across.

 

Edited by Rogue.8235
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36 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Great catch!  Thanks

Looked it up.  The Akkadian Empire (approximately 730 bc) had an actual, professional military.  The other bronze age civilizations used drafts to form armies as needed, which is not a professional military.  But the Akkadians did have one.

 

The GW2 dialogue does not sound like modern brevity comms.  That is not at all how we sound over tacsat or squad comms.

 

But I get it, you want old-timey sounding words.  I guess ArenaNet could do some research into the military notekeeping of Roman Legates to get an idea of how old timey brevity calls sound.  Either way, the current implementation does not sound like modern brevity calls, because it just isn't the same.  I have yet to hear any video game, movie, or tv show get it right.  

 

Yeah, I used, "modern sounding," rather than just, "modern," because it comes across as an attempt to emulate modern media portrayal of military speak.

Many of those bronze age armies that relied on levies had a core professional army that the levies expanded. Those charioteers, drivers, etc were pros. An interesting tidbit is the first professional army medics were formed under Philip of Macedon (Alexander's father). 

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I am not sure that GW2 firearms are black powder weapons. The lack of large clouds of gunsmoke, the high rate of fire, etc seem to imply the use of nitrocellose. But a setting with tanks, attack helicopters, machineguns, automatic rifles, mortars, etc would not find the term, "fire," out of place as an attack signal. 

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24 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

, I see a shortage of options

I don't.

Combat commands during WW2, WW1, the second Boer War, the US Civil War, the Napeonic wars, and so on (as represented in surviving literature and documentation) would serve better than Call of Duty speak in my opinion. There are centuries of samples from gunpowder wars across the world to draw from...we dont need to just sample from our most recent CoD play session.

Edited by Ashen.2907
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The level of writing fluctuates thru the story sometimes it's better than others

 

I like a lot of the ow world writing for events

Like "svanir incoming! Kill them in any way that makes you feel heroic" for examlle

 

Mmo writing should be that way. it should satisfying but not long as what you play an mmo for is mostly the fights not the long gabering.

 

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I enjoy the story and I think it's only become more enjoyable as the storyline has progressed. It's engaging and fun and I really like a lot of the characters. ūüíĖ

 

Sorry that it's not your cup of tea? I suppose there are different styles of writing that appeal to different kinds of people. ūü§∑‚Äć‚ôÄÔłŹ

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11 hours ago, Yello.3406 said:

But on the other hand the overall story-arc is mostly cliché, illogical and bad. Good example is how much Joon mistrusts the commander after the power-plant incident. Highly illogical and out of character but some puzzleing and fighting had to happen. Also the anti-climactic, rushed second half of the ice brood saga. As soon as Bangar was delt with it became boring.

She mistrusts the Commander because the Commander shows distrust of her about the dragon, and shortly after all communication and visuals of the power plant get lost, it starts blowing up with Soo-won gone and most of the place flooded. Mai Trin is found dead in the control room and the commander is actively seen fleeing the area through an emergency escape route instead of talking to the incoming response team.

So yes, it was reasonable that she held a bit of concern that the Commander walked in there and started smashing. If she also managed to get some records on the commander and learn of their history, that would describe a bit of the Commander's past standard action.

And the house, Joon is not somebody who likes to admit they are wrong. The Commander was forcibly intruding into her house and actively bypassing and destroying security, and in the end was telling her that the plan to secure Soo-Won and build a better filter wasn't going to work at all.

9 hours ago, Sunchaser.9854 said:

Honestly I enjoyed the charr personal story for ash legion and iron Legion a fair bit. But yeah Joon felt like a character with understandable motivations hastily written to have that jarring mood swing from. "I vouch and trust the commander, but how can I know you told the truth and will care about my ancient friend?" to "Show me proof of your innocence. Hmm. This proves you may be innocent and a aetherblade attack and the end of the world #47 that can only be saved by aurene's maguffin powers may be at place. BUT ILL KILL YOU AND START THR END OF THE WORLD  AFTER ONE SECOND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME DESPITE HAVING NO COMBAT SKILLS."

Joon had made a plan to build a better filter and secure Soo-Won because she had no actual idea about how bad the void instances were getting, and it's literally describing that she hates to admit she's wrong. Taimi outright mentions that Joon's plan was built on variables that had changed since creation and thus couldn't work anymore.

The commander literally smashed their way into her lab, presented proof of innocence but then instantly followed that up with "Your plan is wrong, it can never work, you gotta do my plan."

Re-reading the dialogue, yeah. She's calm and fine until the Commander outright starts telling her there is no way to recapture Soo-Won and put her back in the reactor. The Void was too much, and she had to be killed. Joon reacted harshly because A: that meant the possible collapse of Jade-tech and B: that all her plans were wrong.

 

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Since Dragonstorm got brought up, I need to mention that despite that being a hugely important event the only lines I remember are from Brahm and one from Rytlock and can quote them verbatim: 

"growl"
"TIME; HERE WE FIGHT"

"WE, ARE, PRIMORDUS"

"WE, ARE, FIRE!"

"DEFEND FIRE, THEN KILL ICE'
'KILL JORMAG"


"What do you think we're trying to do, kid?!"

It's sooooooooo over the top but it's so fitting for Primorduses "destroy everything" goal, I love it, but at the the same time, it's a bit troubling those are the only lines I remember from Dragonstorm, everything else fell a bit flat imo.

Edited by SamuelW.2685
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This game's target audience is teenagers, age 13+. They expect young adults to play it, but its really, really not aimed for those of us who are much older even though some of us enjoy it anyway.

 

Video games by and large are played by teens and young adults, and when you're that young trashy stuff is more interesting than not. In fact as I've become older and realised how much it erodes at your ability at enjoy thing that isn't a magnum opus, I've been trying to undo that in myself.

 

The other day I found myself saying 'This is awful, I love it' for the first time in like a decade. Its okay for things to be bad and its okay to have fun. Cringe is a kind of self-inflicted abuse.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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I've had my own words on the writing in this game, especially the decline of the dialog in recent years, several times on this forum and I just don't have the energy to repeat myself.  That said, when I tried to get a few of my relatives that game a lot into GW2 a few years back, around when PoF launched, and they just didn't maintain interest much after a month or so one of the things they said that turned each of them off was the overly modern way almost all of the characters spoke in.  And they didn't get much past the early levels of Kryta.

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9 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

She mistrusts the Commander because the Commander shows distrust of her about the dragon, and shortly after all communication and visuals of the power plant get lost, it starts blowing up with Soo-won gone and most of the place flooded. Mai Trin is found dead in the control room and the commander is actively seen fleeing the area through an emergency escape route instead of talking to the incoming response team.

So yes, it was reasonable that she held a bit of concern that the Commander walked in there and started smashing. If she also managed to get some records on the commander and learn of their history, that would describe a bit of the Commander's past standard action.

And the house, Joon is not somebody who likes to admit they are wrong. The Commander was forcibly intruding into her house and actively bypassing and destroying security, and in the end was telling her that the plan to secure Soo-Won and build a better filter wasn't going to work at all.

Joon had made a plan to build a better filter and secure Soo-Won because she had no actual idea about how bad the void instances were getting, and it's literally describing that she hates to admit she's wrong. Taimi outright mentions that Joon's plan was built on variables that had changed since creation and thus couldn't work anymore.

The commander literally smashed their way into her lab, presented proof of innocence but then instantly followed that up with "Your plan is wrong, it can never work, you gotta do my plan."

Re-reading the dialogue, yeah. She's calm and fine until the Commander outright starts telling her there is no way to recapture Soo-Won and put her back in the reactor. The Void was too much, and she had to be killed. Joon reacted harshly because A: that meant the possible collapse of Jade-tech and B: that all her plans were wrong.

 

 

You have a point that initially it seemed plausible. But it got to really unbelievable lengths. The fact alone that she had Taimi with her the whole time. It is safe to assume she constantly tried to convince her of the commanders innocence. On top of that she knew about the Aetherblades and what they were. So not even considering it could be all their fault is very, very hard to believe.

As the commander came to her house a conversation should have happened. The fact that it didn't is just crazy stubbornness. To say "she had a hard time to admit she was wrong" is just not nearly enough considering what's at stake.

 

6 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This game's target audience is teenagers, age 13+. They expect young adults to play it, but its really, really not aimed for those of us who are much older even though some of us enjoy it anyway.

 

Video games by and large are played by teens and young adults, and when you're that young trashy stuff is more interesting than not. In fact as I've become older and realised how much it erodes at your ability at enjoy thing that isn't a magnum opus, I've been trying to undo that in myself.

 

The other day I found myself saying 'This is awful, I love it' for the first time in like a decade. Its okay for things to be bad and its okay to have fun. Cringe is a kind of self-inflicted abuse.

 

I think you underestimate the average age of mmo-players. Just because the game is 12+ doesn't mean its the mayority of the playerbase. From what kind of people I met in the various MMOs I played (many people in many MMOs), I would say the the largest age group is somewhere between 25 and 45. I met way more people in their 60s than teens. They all play Fortnite and Minecraft.

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22 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Well, with a 13+ target audience, people expected more?

8 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

This game's target audience is teenagers, age 13+. They expect young adults to play it, but its really, really not aimed for those of us who are much older even though some of us enjoy it anyway.

 

Video games by and large are played by teens and young adults, and when you're that young trashy stuff is more interesting than not. In fact as I've become older and realised how much it erodes at your ability at enjoy thing that isn't a magnum opus, I've been trying to undo that in myself.

 

The other day I found myself saying 'This is awful, I love it' for the first time in like a decade. Its okay for things to be bad and its okay to have fun. Cringe is a kind of self-inflicted abuse.

I think you vastly underestimate the level of complexity and seriousness that teenagers can enjoy in stories.

There's a difference between teens loving something because it's got stupid meme potential (aka the "this is awful, I love it" stuff), which seems to be what Tom Abernathy was aiming towards, and teens loving something because it's good.

17 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I would call the writing there something like "discount Avengers." Then again, maybe that's giving too much credit to the influence of The Avengers.

Nah, I'd say MCU writing being inspirational for the current writers is very spot on, as it's been confirmed many of the S4, S5, and EoD writers are huge MCU fans. Not quite sure how many remain after the exodus with EoD's launch though.

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2 hours ago, Yello.3406 said:

 

You have a point that initially it seemed plausible. But it got to really unbelievable lengths. The fact alone that she had Taimi with her the whole time. It is safe to assume she constantly tried to convince her of the commanders innocence. On top of that she knew about the Aetherblades and what they were. So not even considering it could be all their fault is very, very hard to believe.

As the commander came to her house a conversation should have happened. The fact that it didn't is just crazy stubbornness. To say "she had a hard time to admit she was wrong" is just not nearly enough considering what's at stake.

Taimi directly comments on this. Every single time she tried to talk about the Commander of the Extractor, Joon shut the conversation down entirely. And it was awkward anyway because of Joon hating the Commander.

The Aetherblades(or at least Ankka) left no trace of their presence. You can read the reports from the incident during that same mission. Security found no trace of Ankka, had a log where Ivan spoke of Joon as the mark, not the reactor, and they had seen Ivan with the other suspects (Gorrik, Marjory, etc). Joon's own security group couldn't find any evidence to contradict those claims at all. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ministry_Update https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Xunlai_Security_Update

All they knew is they found Mai Trin dead in the control area, having averted a meltdown, and the Commander bolted out the side door without even stopping to explain or defend themselves. They found Aurene's magic all over the place with the crystals, and assumed the Commander unleashed it somehow. It wasn't until they plopped the extractor down that had Aurene's magic in it that they believed otherwise.

When they go to her house, she A: still completely believes the commander trashed her reactor, given previous hostile comments about "You have a dragon in your reactor?!?" (probably was thinking like Inquest bases, which always ended badly) B: Is dealing with people actively breaking into her house basically. and c : has fixated herself on the plan to contain Soo-Won and filter out the void, not understanding or knowing how bad it has gotten.

And yes, that's the point of the instance. Joon at the time was focused on a singular aspect of the problem: How to keep jade charged safely. She wasn't thinking of the wider picture or dangers. She was entirely concerned at the time about Jade running out of power and everything going to hell because of that, not because of the world falling apart to the void.

 

12 hours ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

Since Dragonstorm got brought up, I need to mention that despite that being a hugely important event the only lines I remember are from Brahm and one from Rytlock and can quote them verbatim: 

"growl"
"TIME; HERE WE FIGHT"

"WE, ARE, PRIMORDUS"

"WE, ARE, FIRE!"

"DEFEND FIRE, THEN KILL ICE'
'KILL JORMAG"


"What do you think we're trying to do, kid?!"

It's sooooooooo over the top but it's so fitting for Primorduses "destroy everything" goal, I love it, but at the the same time, it's a bit troubling those are the only lines I remember from Dragonstorm, everything else fell a bit flat imo.

I think that's mostly because from memory, the dialogue is quite quiet in that instance, especially if you aren't near the NPC in question. It is for me a bit at least, the music/effects/etc overpower the lines so That bit is often clear because everybody is at that spot, then split up for bosses/other stuff.

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