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I don't want to be rude, but the writing...


Greencactaur.4396

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  • 2 months later...

A lot of people commenting about the quality of the dialogue but my biggest gripe is that every single problem and solution in the story stems from magic - WHICH HAS COMPLETELY UNKNOWN RULES AND LIMITATIONS (if any?).


Brandon Sanderson's (the author of the Mistborn- and the Stormlight Archive- series, fantastic books all) first law of magic:
"The author's ability to resolve conflicts in a satisfying way with magic is directly proportional to how the reader understands said magic."

It is impossible for me to feel that characters or world or whatever is in risk when at any moment someone pulls some magical thingamajig out of their proverbial rear end and then has the audacity to try to explain it with some pseudo-intellectual garbage? This utterly ruins the sense of tension and stakes.

As a result, to me the entire story is just random events happening in a sequence, I can't ever expect to know what is the result of an action the characters carry out, will this magical device suck out a dragon's soul or poop out a rainbow? IDK.

Edit: typos...

Edited by Kytis.2816
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1 hour ago, Kytis.2816 said:

It is impossible for me to feel that characters or world or whatever is in risk when at any moment someone pulls some magical thingamajig out of their proverbial rear end and then has the audacity to try to explain it with some pseudo-intellectual garbage? This utterly ruins the sense of tension and stakes.

This paragraph sums up the story quality issues very well, and the last sentence cannot be emphasized enough.

The only good moments throughout the story, that made me feel something, were all void of magi-tech (or nonsense like dragon-energy draining siphons built from dragon crystals that are somehow linked to technology that we never get to see).

Other than the "computers" in Rata Sum, I don't recall any magi-tech devices in Tyria that didn't somehow compromise the story for me.

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I remember the overall world building being decent and I liked the dragons etc.  Nothing particularly stood out as terrible in my memory.  I returned about 6 weeks ago and my wife joined me.  I told her the story was decent (from my recollection), but I must not have paid close attention.  It was very cringe-inducing listening to it a 2nd time around.  It isn't a terrible story-arc, just bad story-telling.  Telling...a LOT of TELLING.  No organically reached conclusions.  Just "This is the chapter where Taimi explains what the writers want us to know in a lengthy explanation with big made up words".

Edited by Jetblackrogue.9470
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13 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Other than the "computers" in Rata Sum, I don't recall any magi-tech devices in Tyria that didn't somehow compromise the story for me.

Exactly. The magic in the story of GW2 is just one, all-encompassing deus ex machina, a hallmark of lazy and/or untalented writing.

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15 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Other than the "computers" in Rata Sum, I don't recall any magi-tech devices in Tyria that didn't somehow compromise the story for me.

Because, in the literal setting of the story and the lore, Asura (As in, the racial government of Rata Sum and their lands) don't share tech. They don't share knowledge. They view all others as lesser and unable to understand it.

So we don't see magitech all over for the same reason we don't see tons of Charr tech all over, it's mostly limited to their homelands or bases, with each Race's land dominated by the tech of that government.

Jade Tech is not more advanced then Asura Tech, it's just widespread across the lands occupied by the Government and people of the Dragon Empire, and it also is more user friendly, as the Canthan's don't bog their tech down with extra steps and gadgets to prove they are smarter then the lab across the hallway.

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1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Because, in the literal setting of the story and the lore, Asura (As in, the racial government of Rata Sum and their lands) don't share tech. They don't share knowledge. They view all others as lesser and unable to understand it.

So we don't see magitech all over for the same reason we don't see tons of Charr tech all over, it's mostly limited to their homelands or bases, with each Race's land dominated by the tech of that government.

Jade Tech is not more advanced then Asura Tech, it's just widespread across the lands occupied by the Government and people of the Dragon Empire, and it also is more user friendly, as the Canthan's don't bog their tech down with extra steps and gadgets to prove they are smarter then the lab across the hallway.

i'd like to add that canthan technology is more dated (think the 1980s-90s compared to the 2010s), as the majority of it was based upon documents that had reached cantha decades, if not centuries ago.

 

however as you said, the canthans focus on user-friendliness, which gives the appearance that the technology is more advanced; in particular we've seen no signs that they charge for waypoints and we've seen people pop all over the place and even into arborstone, which has become an economic hub, whereas in tyria they mostly have to rely on asura gates (which are also expensive, but not as much).

 

it mirrors our real world, where many technologies existed long before becoming mainstream, but weren't heavily adopted until they became cheap, easy to reproduce and modernised despite antiquated.

Edited by SoftFootpaws.9134
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1 minute ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i'd like to add that overall, canthan technology is more dated (think 90s vs the 2010s), as the majority of it was based upon documents that had reached cantha decades, if not centuries ago.

 

however as you said, the canthans focus on user-friendliness, which gives the appearance that the technology is more advanced; in particular we've seen no signs that they charge for waypoints and we've seen people pop all over the place, whereas in tyria they mostly have to rely on asura gates (which are also expensive, but not as much).

 

it mirrors our real world, where many technologies existed long before becoming mainstream, but weren't heavily adopted until they became cheap, easy to reproduce and modernised despite antiquated.

I've joked in the past that a Golem and Jade mech function the exact same, but the Golem has 15 extra steps attached to replacing the power core because the guy who made that model wanted to prove his intelligence over the other guy. Jade Mech has no extra steps, just remove battery and plug in the new one.

They do talk about how their teleport grid is distinct from the Asura waypoints I believe, in kaineng. I forget the distinction they make though.

 

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Having dealt with real life world for many years (not that many compared to most of you tbh), I can say this with confidence: dumb people are everywhere, saying dumb things all the time, and there are times I can't exclude myself from that as well.

Many dislike Braham, but I'm fine with him. Mostly because the real life is indeed filled with people mature by age, but only age. Such character's appearance is just too normal to complain. Even if it's a significant one.

I mean, I have no problem with the game having all kind of characters, even if they are dumb. My problem's with the frequency of occurrences. Like, for example, according to an inquest study, human are dumber than asura, sylvari, and charr. So they can set a frequency of dumb human characters saying dumb things. But the same should happen less on charr, and on very rare occasion for sylvari. And near zero chance for asura.

On 8/1/2022 at 6:54 AM, Greencactaur.4396 said:

"YEAH I'LL STAB HIM IN THE FACE WITH THIS SWORD"

Like the above sentence. I have less problem when a norn said that, but if it came out of an asura's mouth I might, for a second, doubt the accuracy of said inquest study (maybe norn are subtly the smartest, after all?).

 

I mean, yeah. Anet could definitely use better writers. I've seen enough seemingly wise characters making dumb remarks. To the point it breaks immersions.

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1 hour ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

Like, for example, according to an inquest study, human are dumber than asura, sylvari, and charr. So they can set a frequency of dumb human characters saying dumb things. But the same should happen less on charr, and on very rare occasion for sylvari. And near zero chance for asura.

 

You shouldn't take an Asura study of intelligence too seriously. Much less an inquest one.

They are famous for viewing everybody else as dumber then themselves and viewing Asura as the superior race. Of course an Inquest study of intelligence would end up with the results "The Asura are the most intellignt"

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12 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You shouldn't take an Asura study of intelligence too seriously. Much less an inquest one.

They are famous for viewing everybody else as dumber then themselves and viewing Asura as the superior race. Of course an Inquest study of intelligence would end up with the results "The Asura are the most intellignt"

For vast majority of the time, their results are reliable. That’s why we’ve been robbing their research outcomes all the time.
Not sure if Tyrian scholars discovered this, but the coverage of intelligence is much wider than most would believe. Like, a musician good at writing songs and a businessman being good at math are two example of intelligence, but different type. It is also true to say that an archer is smarter at using a bow to hit targets faraway than an average technician. And for that particular inquest study, depends on how they define “intelligence” at the time of research, chances are it was as accurate as any other. 
 

edit- okay that archer example wasn’t very appropriate. Let’s say two archers, the one better at using bow is smarter than the other.

Edited by Raffrey.5271
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I like the story in a general way; but not the story telling, and how they implement new concepts

Spoiler

For example; I like the concept of Kralkatorrik and his weakness; exalted stories and Glint; but I don't like how it was used; I mean, Balthazar almost killed him with a cat sized robot  (for Kralk); using  Aurene's power.
But Aurene, plus our help, plus an entire army help couldn't kill him (at the first encounter). Even thought it was better than Balthazar's robot (Yeah, kralk was stronger, but Aurene also was).

Also the story about Aurene getting resurrected immediately 1 chapter after her death, followed by a joke, was....

I liked Jormag vs Primordius idea... Jormag trying to convince us, etc. But the end with both dying in a double KO...

 

But a lore can be good even without a good story telling (see Dark Souls). But here it isn't xD 

Some stories here are good in concept, but in execution it's a disaster. It's almost like they drop good ideas which they save to a text file; but only 3 months before they begin to see how they are going to implement them. And in the end it doesn't fit well.

Edited by AlPower.2476
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17 hours ago, Raffrey.5271 said:

For vast majority of the time, their results are reliable. That’s why we’ve been robbing their research outcomes all the time.
Not sure if Tyrian scholars discovered this, but the coverage of intelligence is much wider than most would believe. Like, a musician good at writing songs and a businessman being good at math are two example of intelligence, but different type. It is also true to say that an archer is smarter at using a bow to hit targets faraway than an average technician. And for that particular inquest study, depends on how they define “intelligence” at the time of research, chances are it was as accurate as any other. 
 

edit- okay that archer example wasn’t very appropriate. Let’s say two archers, the one better at using bow is smarter than the other.

Inquest studies on magic/tech yes.

Inquest studies on the intelligence of the races of Tyria? Will be explicitly tainted by their racial superiority viewpoints.

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yea gw2 writing has gone downhill for years now.

i played ff14 last year and their writing is like a god compared to gw2 writing.

gw2 writing feels like a fanfic woke writer.

like there's so many story can be tackled with, so many plotholes, but yea, its straight garbage for a long time in terms of story

Edited by felix.2386
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8 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

gw2 writing feels like a fanfic woke writer.

I deliberately left this part out of my first "rant" which I typed immediately after the finishing the groan-inducing slop that was the EoD-story, but yes I feel this way too.

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I played through the original story back in 2013 on my first character, and I was initially positive but started caring less towards the end. Zhaitan wasn't a very interesting villain. Even so, since then I've actually completed the story two more times, and I'm on my way to beat it a fourth time. Why?

Well, I think GW2 has a decent enough start. The quests related to the character creation feel meaningful, and the way the story branches makes it feel like you have some manner of agency. It's the only time the story allows for minute levels of roleplay. I've tried to play through the story of the expansions and I got maybe halfway through Heart of Thorns, and it's not necessarily the story that is bad -- but the characters you're forced to be friends with and the complete lack of any meaningful agency, that is what is so bad. I enjoyed exploring the Verdant Brink and learning of the various things you encounter in the world, but I absolutely detested the Living World Story.

... I also find the name to be in complete contradiction of itself. "Living World". It may have been a Living World back in 2013-2014, but now it is wholly an instanced world where you won't encounter any other players unless you happen to bring them along (and they'll only be along as spectators, being completely ignored by the unfolding events). I firmly believe that this is not the way to tell stories in MMORPGs! Even if it has become a norm for the genre since ~2012. It feels like the way ArenaNet has chosen to tell their story actively diminishes the world they've built.

Consider mounts. Mounts in GW2 are great, especially when compared to the archaic mounts of World of Warcraft. Yet the manner in which you unlock your mount was likely far more meaningful in original World of Warcraft than it was in GW2. Getting enough gold to afford a mount was a struggle in and of itself, and there was no quest telling you to do it. You yourself wanted to do it. You had likely seen other players on mounts, and maybe you had seen the mount vendors with various mounts on display and thought "ooh, I'd love to have that Timber Wolf!". In GW2 you unlock your first mount by doing a Living World quest. As I wrote above, I've not completed HoT yet ... so I skipped through the story and just hopped into the Path of Fire and did the first story mission, utterly confused to what was going on for the sole purpose of unlocking my mount. I did not really have a choice either, I could only get the raptor and if I wanted some other skin I would have to visit the non-diegetic in-game store.

Imagine, instead, if when Path of Fire launched ArenaNet planted some mount vendors in various places on the map. Maybe they would allow us a bit more freedom with our first mount -- maybe we could pick between a raptor or a roadrunner (one of the skins you can buy) or something else. I don't begrudge ArenaNet for wanting to sell some unique stuff on their cash shop, but they could have offered some choice to the player. They could have combined this with the world -- like the Charr selling raptors and some other race selling roadrunners (forgive the complete brainstorm).

Anyways, this post is getting long enough and in my experience people tend not to read long posts, so I'll stop myself here. It has been an interesting and fun topic to read.

Edited by Kathkere.3068
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1 hour ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

... I also find the name to be in complete contradiction of itself. "Living World". It may have been a Living World back in 2013-2014, but now it is wholly an instanced world where you won't encounter any other players unless you happen to bring them along (and they'll only be along as spectators, being completely ignored by the unfolding events). I firmly believe that this is not the way to tell stories in MMORPGs! Even if it has become a norm for the genre since ~2012. It feels like the way ArenaNet has chosen to tell their story actively diminishes the world they've built.

Living world was more about having a continuing storyline between expansions/paid releases. They change the model BECAUSE of the players. Players on low pop servers had fewer chances to earn rewards before the started running out of people doing the boss events/other events, while high pop servers had full weeks of running the boss and earning loot. They originally did a few single time only events (Karka invading LA, Ancient Karka queen) and saw how badly it went, both performance wise and player feedback due to not being able to partake. So they swapped to rerunning world bosses/events, and it was better, but still didn't work as great. They went instanced with new maps/bosses/events that re-ran because it worked the best.

 

1 hour ago, Kathkere.3068 said:

Consider mounts. Mounts in GW2 are great, especially when compared to the archaic mounts of World of Warcraft. Yet the manner in which you unlock your mount was likely far more meaningful in original World of Warcraft than it was in GW2. Getting enough gold to afford a mount was a struggle in and of itself, and there was no quest telling you to do it. You yourself wanted to do it. You had likely seen other players on mounts, and maybe you had seen the mount vendors with various mounts on display and thought "ooh, I'd love to have that Timber Wolf!". In GW2 you unlock your first mount by doing a Living World quest. As I wrote above, I've not completed HoT yet ... so I skipped through the story and just hopped into the Path of Fire and did the first story mission, utterly confused to what was going on for the sole purpose of unlocking my mount. I did not really have a choice either, I could only get the raptor and if I wanted some other skin I would have to visit the non-diegetic in-game store.

Imagine, instead, if when Path of Fire launched ArenaNet planted some mount vendors in various places on the map. Maybe they would allow us a bit more freedom with our first mount -- maybe we could pick between a raptor or a roadrunner (one of the skins you can buy) or something else. I don't begrudge ArenaNet for wanting to sell some unique stuff on their cash shop, but they could have offered some choice to the player. They could have combined this with the world -- like the Charr selling raptors and some other race selling roadrunners (forgive the complete brainstorm).

 

The thing is though, while Mounts are fun, they aren't needed for the base game or HoT/living world maps. Those regions are covered in waypoints allowing easier travel. And since recently, they changed the system to unlock the Raptor early anyway for players.

 

The way it worked in path of fire is exactly as you describe it. You are gifted a raptor for saving the first farm, which runs Raptor stables. To get the other mounts, you level up the raptor to reach the skimmer or springer farms, where you earn the ability to buy the mount. Because each mount is unique, they are found in the care of specialists who raise, train, and sell those creatures and you have to prove you understand how to handle the beast to earn the ability to buy it. Unlike WoW, where you just get enough money, hand it to a trainer, who hands you a slip of paper saying "mount riding license" and then you buy a horse or wolf or whatever, because they all operate, move, and function the same.

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I'm as much of an armchair developer as everyone else here but honestly I was fine with the story when it was more Tyrian central. I don't mind going to other regions but there are so many threads left open in existing GW2 stories that could have been resolved before going to so much as Elona. We also have so many interesting, unique races to explore and go in-depth with their lore but for some reason Anet are *fixated* on Humans being the "safe" option for storytelling with every expansion, and with EOD personally, I just got bored of it; the futuristic asian cyberpunk theme has been done to death that it wasn't cool for me to see Neon Cantha.

I felt for the most part, the story was fine until Icebrood Saga happened - personally for me IBS was doing just fine until Champions happened, and you really felt the skeleton crew effect by the time Dragonstorm came around (I'll never forgive what they did to Owl. That was the dirtiest "gotcha" writing I've ever seen.) EoD was... ok, but I noticed some "social" interactions starting to creep its way into the content and it got worse with Gyala Delve, moreso with this recent patch. I won't go on a massive tangent about that because it's the sure-fire way to light a fire under my backside and I don't feel like dealing with drama of people, but if MCU and Disney are anything to go by, and the backlash of this latest patch, it needs to stop being a trend that bleeds into our media because it tarnishes art and good story-telling.

People loved the Sylvari with the introduction of GW2. Give us the resolution of the NMC as an example-- or even Malyck. The supposed second pale tree they hinted towards with the vanilla Sylvari story as well. How about the Asura now that Primordus has been defeated? An expansion where we go back underground to help them reclaim their lost civilisations would be really neat. Let the Skritt go back too. Poor sods, been on the surface and hunted for too long now. Skritt deserve some love, damnit!

 

Edited by Darkness.3942
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4 minutes ago, Darkness.3942 said:

We also have so many interesting, unique races to explore and go in-depth with their lore but for some reason Anet are *fixated* on Humans being the "safe" option for storytelling with every expansion, and with EOD personally, I just got bored of it; the futuristic asian cyberpunk theme has been done to death that it wasn't cool for me to see Neon Cantha.

Outside of the Charr none of the other major races exist in any known quantities otuside of central Tyria which has already been heavily explored. Humans were the only race to be anywhere near as widespread. Other races are still too much in a tribal state to support large scale civilization.

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9 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Outside of the Charr none of the other major races exist in any known quantities otuside of central Tyria which has already been heavily explored. Humans were the only race to be anywhere near as widespread. Other races are still too much in a tribal state to support large scale civilization.

I would highly beg to differ with how much left of the map there is to explore on Tyria alone. Shiverpeaks still has a lot of potential, the Blood Legion Homelands and even northern Maguuma. I'll even take the Woodland Cascades.

I get where you're coming from but it could be an opportunity for them to do something for those regions where other races we know in the game have expanded beyond where we have seen them localised right now. 

For instance: I've always wondered what a Icey Yggdrassil themed Pale Tree would be like. The Sylvari there could be  inspired by the way of the Norn to survive against Jormag in their time up there. Different? Sure. But that's my point. I'm tired of mediocre that the Humans tend to feel like as a whole and there's so many interesting things they could do, but Anet seem to just be scared of doing anything "bold", really.

Edited by Darkness.3942
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17 minutes ago, Darkness.3942 said:

I would highly beg to differ with how much left of the map there is to explore on Tyria alone. Shiverpeaks still has a lot of potential, the Blood Legion Homelands and even northern Maguuma. I'll even take the Woodland Cascades.

I get where you're coming from but it could be an opportunity for them to do something for those regions where other races we know in the game have expanded beyond where we have seen them localised right now. 

For instance: I've always wondered what a Icey Yggdrassil themed Pale Tree would be like. The Sylvari there could be  inspired by the way of the Norn to survive against Jormag in their time up there. Different? Sure. But that's my point. I'm tired of mediocre that the Humans tend to feel like as a whole and there's so many interesting things they could do, but Anet seem to just be scared of doing anything "bold", really.

The upper Norn lands were already near, if not at, Tyria's arctic circle. There really shouldn't be anything further north since it would be too cold to support most life.

Likewise, the Woodland Cascades is just Centaur lands.... and we've seen tons of centaurs already.

And most companies tend to avoid "bold" because more often then not "bold" doesn't make any sense(like Shiverpeaks Pale Tree) and turns into "lets try to different for the sake of it" which isn't good story telling.

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12 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And most companies tend to avoid "bold" because more often then not "bold" doesn't make any sense

Objective opinion considering I've seen the opposite of this statement before but, I digress. 

 

41 minutes ago, Darkness.3942 said:

I'm as much of an armchair developer as everyone else here.

 

Edited by Darkness.3942
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42 minutes ago, Darkness.3942 said:

I'm as much of an armchair developer as everyone else here but honestly I was fine with the story when it was more Tyrian central. I don't mind going to other regions but there are so many threads left open in existing GW2 stories that could have been resolved before going to so much as Elona. We also have so many interesting, unique races to explore and go in-depth with their lore but for some reason Anet are *fixated* on Humans being the "safe" option for storytelling with every expansion, and with EOD personally, I just got bored of it; the futuristic asian cyberpunk theme has been done to death that it wasn't cool for me to see Neon Cantha.

I felt for the most part, the story was fine until Icebrood Saga happened - personally for me IBS was doing just fine until Champions happened, and you really felt the skeleton crew effect by the time Dragonstorm came around (I'll never forgive what they did to Owl. That was the dirtiest "gotcha" writing I've ever seen.) EoD was... ok, but I noticed some "social" issues starting to creep its way into the content and it got worse with Gyala Delve, moreso with this recent patch. I won't go on a massive tangent about that because it's the sure-fire way to light a fire under my backside and I don't feel like dealing with drama of people, but if MCU and Disney are anything to go by, and the backlash of this latest patch, it needs to stop being a trend that bleeds into our media because it destroys art and good story-telling.

People loved the Sylvari with the introduction of GW2. Give us the resolution of the NMC as an example-- or even Malyck. The supposed second pale tree they hinted towards with the vanilla Sylvari story as well. How about the Asura now that Primordus has been defeated? An expansion where we go back underground to help them reclaim their lost civilisations would be really neat. Let the Skritt go back too. Poor sods, been on the surface and hunted for too long now. Skritt deserve some love, damnit!

 

i guess you're most likely referring to the trend of featuring progressive characters in media. if you missed the memo, arenanet is a progressive company and many of their employees are lgbtq+, so asking them not to write about themselves because you see them as a trend is a bit unrealistic.

 

its also very strange to say it destroys art when the art represents the artists.

Edited by SoftFootpaws.9134
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