The Elephant in the Room: Non-Telegraphed Port Burst Combos

[Enduronex.4865]

Right now, there's a balance issue that affects a wide span of builds - any builds that have access to ports (as opposed to merely fast-moving skills in sequence).  The problem is that a lot of these builds can instantly port to a location within range or to a player within ranger while already engaging in what would otherwise be a very dodge-able, telegraphed skill with adequate activation time to warn a foe player that a particular skill is being used.  For purposes of this discussion, we will ignore bursts and CCs from stealth, although those cases are a separate issue.  

 

For example - the Glacial Blow skill.  Sure, it has a reasonable activation time.  Sure, when a guardian player is in close proximity to you, you generally are able to dodge it in time if you pay attention.  And if you get hit by it, it can do 10K damage to you (given that most direct dmg players use Berserker's amulet because the damage nerfs in February 2020 patch made most use cases for Demolisher's, Destroyers, and Marauder's Amulet uncommon).  So most people would be inclined to think, "Well, if you got hit by it, it is your fault."  Except you can't dodge what you cannot see coming.  That's the problem.  Guardian players will combine it with Judge's Intervention so that you do not see Glacial Blow coming.  They will activate the animation and port mid animation to your location and hit you for 10K.  And you'll be at 65% HP on a Tier II HP pool class and get wiped just like that trying to figure out what hit you.  And maybe if you're lucky, the broken Death Report will tell you (but often it doesn't because, again, it's broken).  So you have to scroll through the annoying combat chat to find out that, oh yeah, [Glacial Blow] hit you for 10,094 damage.  

 

And it's not merely guardian.  Lots of classes have this burst ability, even if not all of them can deal it in one strike.  Heralds can engage in bursts like this after Phase Traversal whereby their only real penalty is the loss of 30 energy on Legendary Assassin stance - which means they just swap to Legendary Dragon Stance and keep going... especially when they have the Brutality trait engaged.

 

Mechanists have port burst options with their Shift Signet and mechanist combos... and with the latest patch, they have virtually permanent quickness uptime on a particular build, reducing their opportunities to blunder the combos.

 

Soulbeasts can engage in such activities with Smoke Assault which is *effectively* a port that they then use to combo with Worldly Impact or double Maul given their ample access to quickness.

 

Mesmers of all specializations can do this with direct dmg AND condi on a variety of weapons.

 

Heck, even Bladesworns can do it with Flicker Step and Dragon Slash skills.  Not only is the timing for the foe uncertain for the Dragon Slash (because it is not necessarily used at any particular time during the Dragon Trigger time so it is already taxing to pay attention to it), but the Unyielding Dragon trait makes it unblindable, unblockable, AND a CC that also does damage.  Often 8K-10K damage, especially with usage of common warrior shout skills.  What the HECK happened to the rule that CC skills do not do damage?  HOW MANY exceptions are we going to make?  Is it just arbitrary at this point?

 

Don't even get me started on Spectre who, in addition to already having the benefits of Shadow Arts and the benefit of being able to spam Heartseeker and Backstab with the only drawback being initiative (these need small cooldowns, too), but they are *rewarded* by Rune of the Chronomancer synergy for basically using *all* of the Spectre unique skills.  So many wells, and so much free quickness.  Not that Deadeye is any better (it's abysmally broken in 2v2s and 3v3s).

 

 I propose either a forced deactivation cooldown of 0.25 - 0.5 seconds after all ports and effective port skills or BOTH a direct AND condi dmg multiplier reduction to 1/2 for 0.5 seconds post 500 range port skills.  Players need to be penalized a bit more on the damage side when using ports.  Mobility should get you to fights and nodes faster and away from fights faster - it shouldn't *increase* your damage because your skills are inherently so fast that a human cannot react to them.  That's not sufficiently telegraphed for a properly balanced, competitive game.  Not that this game doesn't have a whole host of other balance and net code issues already.  

 

TLDR: Port burst combos are not sufficiently telegraphed for a healthy competitive game and either need deactivation cooldowns post-port or direct/condi dmg multiplier penalties that discourage port burst combo activity.

[Crab Fear.8623]

No, holos need to die even faster.

I proposed that all teles have quickness and all aftercasts removed.

[Hellz.3058]

4 hours ago, memausz.7264 said:

Right now, there's a balance issue that affects a wide span of builds - any builds that have access to ports (as opposed to merely fast-moving skills in sequence).  The problem is that a lot of these builds can instantly port to a location within range or to a player within ranger while already engaging in what would otherwise be a very dodge-able, telegraphed skill with adequate activation time to warn a foe player that a particular skill is being used.  For purposes of this discussion, we will ignore bursts and CCs from stealth, although those cases are a separate issue.  

 

For example - the Glacial Blow skill.  Sure, it has a reasonable activation time.  Sure, when a guardian player is in close proximity to you, you generally are able to dodge it in time if you pay attention.  And if you get hit by it, it can do 10K damage to you (given that most direct dmg players use Berserker's amulet because the damage nerfs in February 2020 patch made most use cases for Demolisher's, Destroyers, and Marauder's Amulet uncommon).  So most people would be inclined to think, "Well, if you got hit by it, it is your fault."  Except you can't dodge what you cannot see coming.  That's the problem.  Guardian players will combine it with Judge's Intervention so that you do not see Glacial Blow coming.  They will activate the animation and port mid animation to your location and hit you for 10K.  And you'll be at 65% HP on a Tier II HP pool class and get wiped just like that trying to figure out what hit you.  And maybe if you're lucky, the broken Death Report will tell you (but often it doesn't because, again, it's broken).  So you have to scroll through the annoying combat chat to find out that, oh yeah, [Glacial Blow] hit you for 10,094 damage.  

 

And it's not merely guardian.  Lots of classes have this burst ability, even if not all of them can deal it in one strike.  Heralds can engage in bursts like this after Phase Traversal whereby their only real penalty is the loss of 30 energy on Legendary Assassin stance - which means they just swap to Legendary Dragon Stance and keep going... especially when they have the Brutality trait engaged.

 

Mechanists have port burst options with their Shift Signet and mechanist combos... and with the latest patch, they have virtually permanent quickness uptime on a particular build, reducing their opportunities to blunder the combos.

 

Soulbeasts can engage in such activities with Smoke Assault which is *effectively* a port that they then use to combo with Worldly Impact or double Maul given their ample access to quickness.

 

Mesmers of all specializations can do this with direct dmg AND condi on a variety of weapons.

 

Heck, even Bladesworns can do it with Flicker Step and Dragon Slash skills.  Not only is the timing for the foe uncertain for the Dragon Slash (because it is not necessarily used at any particular time during the Dragon Trigger time so it is already taxing to pay attention to it), but the Unyielding Dragon trait makes it unblindable, unblockable, AND a CC that also does damage.  Often 8K-10K damage, especially with usage of common warrior shout skills.  What the HECK happened to the rule that CC skills do not do damage?  HOW MANY exceptions are we going to make?  Is it just arbitrary at this point?

 

Don't even get me started on Spectre who, in addition to already having the benefits of Shadow Arts and the benefit of being able to spam Heartseeker and Backstab with the only drawback being initiative (these need small cooldowns, too), but they are *rewarded* by Rune of the Chronomancer synergy for basically using *all* of the Spectre unique skills.  So many wells, and so much free quickness.  Not that Deadeye is any better (it's abysmally broken in 2v2s and 3v3s).

 

 I propose either a forced deactivation cooldown of 0.25 - 0.5 seconds after all ports and effective port skills or BOTH a direct AND condi dmg multiplier reduction to 1/2 for 0.5 seconds post 500 range port skills.  Players need to be penalized a bit more on the damage side when using ports.  Mobility should get you to fights and nodes faster and away from fights faster - it shouldn't *increase* your damage because your skills are inherently so fast that a human cannot react to them.  That's not sufficiently telegraphed for a properly balanced, competitive game.  Not that this game doesn't have a whole host of other balance and net code issues already.  

 

TLDR: Port burst combos are not sufficiently telegraphed for a healthy competitive game and either need deactivation cooldowns post-port or direct/condi dmg multiplier penalties that discourage port burst combo activity.

Just dodge bro

[Math.5123]

5 hours ago, memausz.7264 said:

Right now, there's a balance issue that affects a wide span of builds - any builds that have access to ports (as opposed to merely fast-moving skills in sequence).  The problem is that a lot of these builds can instantly port to a location within range or to a player within ranger while already engaging in what would otherwise be a very dodge-able, telegraphed skill with adequate activation time to warn a foe player that a particular skill is being used.  For purposes of this discussion, we will ignore bursts and CCs from stealth, although those cases are a separate issue.  

 

For example - the Glacial Blow skill.  Sure, it has a reasonable activation time.  Sure, when a guardian player is in close proximity to you, you generally are able to dodge it in time if you pay attention.  And if you get hit by it, it can do 10K damage to you (given that most direct dmg players use Berserker's amulet because the damage nerfs in February 2020 patch made most use cases for Demolisher's, Destroyers, and Marauder's Amulet uncommon).  So most people would be inclined to think, "Well, if you got hit by it, it is your fault."  Except you can't dodge what you cannot see coming.  That's the problem.  Guardian players will combine it with Judge's Intervention so that you do not see Glacial Blow coming.  They will activate the animation and port mid animation to your location and hit you for 10K.  And you'll be at 65% HP on a Tier II HP pool class and get wiped just like that trying to figure out what hit you.  And maybe if you're lucky, the broken Death Report will tell you (but often it doesn't because, again, it's broken).  So you have to scroll through the annoying combat chat to find out that, oh yeah, [Glacial Blow] hit you for 10,094 damage.  

 

And it's not merely guardian.  Lots of classes have this burst ability, even if not all of them can deal it in one strike.  Heralds can engage in bursts like this after Phase Traversal whereby their only real penalty is the loss of 30 energy on Legendary Assassin stance - which means they just swap to Legendary Dragon Stance and keep going... especially when they have the Brutality trait engaged.

 

Mechanists have port burst options with their Shift Signet and mechanist combos... and with the latest patch, they have virtually permanent quickness uptime on a particular build, reducing their opportunities to blunder the combos.

 

Soulbeasts can engage in such activities with Smoke Assault which is *effectively* a port that they then use to combo with Worldly Impact or double Maul given their ample access to quickness.

 

Mesmers of all specializations can do this with direct dmg AND condi on a variety of weapons.

 

Heck, even Bladesworns can do it with Flicker Step and Dragon Slash skills.  Not only is the timing for the foe uncertain for the Dragon Slash (because it is not necessarily used at any particular time during the Dragon Trigger time so it is already taxing to pay attention to it), but the Unyielding Dragon trait makes it unblindable, unblockable, AND a CC that also does damage.  Often 8K-10K damage, especially with usage of common warrior shout skills.  What the HECK happened to the rule that CC skills do not do damage?  HOW MANY exceptions are we going to make?  Is it just arbitrary at this point?

 

Don't even get me started on Spectre who, in addition to already having the benefits of Shadow Arts and the benefit of being able to spam Heartseeker and Backstab with the only drawback being initiative (these need small cooldowns, too), but they are *rewarded* by Rune of the Chronomancer synergy for basically using *all* of the Spectre unique skills.  So many wells, and so much free quickness.  Not that Deadeye is any better (it's abysmally broken in 2v2s and 3v3s).

 

 I propose either a forced deactivation cooldown of 0.25 - 0.5 seconds after all ports and effective port skills or BOTH a direct AND condi dmg multiplier reduction to 1/2 for 0.5 seconds post 500 range port skills.  Players need to be penalized a bit more on the damage side when using ports.  Mobility should get you to fights and nodes faster and away from fights faster - it shouldn't *increase* your damage because your skills are inherently so fast that a human cannot react to them.  That's not sufficiently telegraphed for a properly balanced, competitive game.  Not that this game doesn't have a whole host of other balance and net code issues already.  

 

TLDR: Port burst combos are not sufficiently telegraphed for a healthy competitive game and either need deactivation cooldowns post-port or direct/condi dmg multiplier penalties that discourage port burst combo activity.

Since you brought up hammer guard, I'll follow up on that. 

You have no way of sticking to your target. You have no swiftness, no superspeed, no cripple access, really no chill access (outside of hammer 2 which is your only dmg ability on the set rendering the chill useless for any follow-up anyway).

You really have no sustain and no consistent damage. 

 

So if you would nerf; or remove this gimmick it would never see the light of day. Dps guard has no sustain, no way of sticking to the target and no way to disengage. It doesn't have the healing potential, the consistent stream of damage or the mobility of Holosmith (which isn't even a class that sees play atm). So why would you ever want to play Guardian in that case?

 

You have classes that are designed with port combos in mind, and classes that aren't. 

[Sahne.6950]

6 hours ago, memausz.7264 said:

Right now, there's a balance issue that affects a wide span of builds - any builds that have access to ports (as opposed to merely fast-moving skills in sequence).  The problem is that a lot of these builds can instantly port to a location within range or to a player within ranger while already engaging in what would otherwise be a very dodge-able, telegraphed skill with adequate activation time to warn a foe player that a particular skill is being used.  For purposes of this discussion, we will ignore bursts and CCs from stealth, although those cases are a separate issue.  

 

For example - the Glacial Blow skill.  Sure, it has a reasonable activation time.  Sure, when a guardian player is in close proximity to you, you generally are able to dodge it in time if you pay attention.  And if you get hit by it, it can do 10K damage to you (given that most direct dmg players use Berserker's amulet because the damage nerfs in February 2020 patch made most use cases for Demolisher's, Destroyers, and Marauder's Amulet uncommon).  So most people would be inclined to think, "Well, if you got hit by it, it is your fault."  Except you can't dodge what you cannot see coming.  That's the problem.  Guardian players will combine it with Judge's Intervention so that you do not see Glacial Blow coming.  They will activate the animation and port mid animation to your location and hit you for 10K.  And you'll be at 65% HP on a Tier II HP pool class and get wiped just like that trying to figure out what hit you.  And maybe if you're lucky, the broken Death Report will tell you (but often it doesn't because, again, it's broken).  So you have to scroll through the annoying combat chat to find out that, oh yeah, [Glacial Blow] hit you for 10,094 damage.  

 

And it's not merely guardian.  Lots of classes have this burst ability, even if not all of them can deal it in one strike.  Heralds can engage in bursts like this after Phase Traversal whereby their only real penalty is the loss of 30 energy on Legendary Assassin stance - which means they just swap to Legendary Dragon Stance and keep going... especially when they have the Brutality trait engaged.

 

Mechanists have port burst options with their Shift Signet and mechanist combos... and with the latest patch, they have virtually permanent quickness uptime on a particular build, reducing their opportunities to blunder the combos.

 

Soulbeasts can engage in such activities with Smoke Assault which is *effectively* a port that they then use to combo with Worldly Impact or double Maul given their ample access to quickness.

 

Mesmers of all specializations can do this with direct dmg AND condi on a variety of weapons.

 

Heck, even Bladesworns can do it with Flicker Step and Dragon Slash skills.  Not only is the timing for the foe uncertain for the Dragon Slash (because it is not necessarily used at any particular time during the Dragon Trigger time so it is already taxing to pay attention to it), but the Unyielding Dragon trait makes it unblindable, unblockable, AND a CC that also does damage.  Often 8K-10K damage, especially with usage of common warrior shout skills.  What the HECK happened to the rule that CC skills do not do damage?  HOW MANY exceptions are we going to make?  Is it just arbitrary at this point?

 

Don't even get me started on Spectre who, in addition to already having the benefits of Shadow Arts and the benefit of being able to spam Heartseeker and Backstab with the only drawback being initiative (these need small cooldowns, too), but they are *rewarded* by Rune of the Chronomancer synergy for basically using *all* of the Spectre unique skills.  So many wells, and so much free quickness.  Not that Deadeye is any better (it's abysmally broken in 2v2s and 3v3s).

 

 I propose either a forced deactivation cooldown of 0.25 - 0.5 seconds after all ports and effective port skills or BOTH a direct AND condi dmg multiplier reduction to 1/2 for 0.5 seconds post 500 range port skills.  Players need to be penalized a bit more on the damage side when using ports.  Mobility should get you to fights and nodes faster and away from fights faster - it shouldn't *increase* your damage because your skills are inherently so fast that a human cannot react to them.  That's not sufficiently telegraphed for a properly balanced, competitive game.  Not that this game doesn't have a whole host of other balance and net code issues already.  

 

TLDR: Port burst combos are not sufficiently telegraphed for a healthy competitive game and either need deactivation cooldowns post-port or direct/condi dmg multiplier penalties that discourage port burst combo activity.

This post is about hardhitting spells that are casteable during a teleport... right!?

i think its mindblowing how you name so many random and arguably wrong things... like smokescale from a soulbeast.... This thing is not a instant teleport, during which you can cast skills!.... if you would have played Soulbeast atleast once.. you would know this....

 But on the other hand you COMPLETLY forget about the biggest offender....

TELEPORTING MAUL + TAILSWIPE!   *happy Untamed noises*

You are talking about bursstkills that can be used while teleporting... but then you name alot of things that are simply NOT THAT. Bladesworn... flickerstap and DS!?!? Then you rant about specter... being able to spam backstab and heartseeker?!!! what does that have to do with the topic?!?....   Smokeassault!?!?! WHAT?! are you okey!?

There problem you are speaking about truely exists... but your examples are just very very awkward and show that you either dont really understand those professions or that you already derailed your post in the OP.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Myror.7521]

Letz be honest Port plus hard burst as comb should only work when you are hard glassy. Everything Else would be just broken. xd!

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Talking about the mesmer one since I don't give a rats kitten about the others. 

You do know that the sole reason power mesmer/chrono/Mirage exist is the gs2 to blink combo right? 

[Guirssane.7082]

On 8/3/2022 at 3:43 AM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

No, holos need to die even faster.

I proposed that all teles have quickness and all aftercasts removed.

it's been dead since their last batch of nerfs 🙂

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 8/2/2022 at 9:04 PM, memausz.7264 said:

Right now, there's a balance issue that affects a wide span of builds - any builds that have access to ports (as opposed to merely fast-moving skills in sequence).  The problem is that a lot of these builds can instantly port to a location within range or to a player within ranger while already engaging in what would otherwise be a very dodge-able, telegraphed skill with adequate activation time to warn a foe player that a particular skill is being used.  For purposes of this discussion, we will ignore bursts and CCs from stealth, although those cases are a separate issue.  

 

For example - the Glacial Blow skill.  Sure, it has a reasonable activation time.  Sure, when a guardian player is in close proximity to you, you generally are able to dodge it in time if you pay attention.  And if you get hit by it, it can do 10K damage to you (given that most direct dmg players use Berserker's amulet because the damage nerfs in February 2020 patch made most use cases for Demolisher's, Destroyers, and Marauder's Amulet uncommon).  So most people would be inclined to think, "Well, if you got hit by it, it is your fault."  Except you can't dodge what you cannot see coming.  That's the problem.  Guardian players will combine it with Judge's Intervention so that you do not see Glacial Blow coming.  They will activate the animation and port mid animation to your location and hit you for 10K.  And you'll be at 65% HP on a Tier II HP pool class and get wiped just like that trying to figure out what hit you.  And maybe if you're lucky, the broken Death Report will tell you (but often it doesn't because, again, it's broken).  So you have to scroll through the annoying combat chat to find out that, oh yeah, [Glacial Blow] hit you for 10,094 damage.  

 

And it's not merely guardian.  Lots of classes have this burst ability, even if not all of them can deal it in one strike.  Heralds can engage in bursts like this after Phase Traversal whereby their only real penalty is the loss of 30 energy on Legendary Assassin stance - which means they just swap to Legendary Dragon Stance and keep going... especially when they have the Brutality trait engaged.

 

Mechanists have port burst options with their Shift Signet and mechanist combos... and with the latest patch, they have virtually permanent quickness uptime on a particular build, reducing their opportunities to blunder the combos.

 

Soulbeasts can engage in such activities with Smoke Assault which is *effectively* a port that they then use to combo with Worldly Impact or double Maul given their ample access to quickness.

 

Mesmers of all specializations can do this with direct dmg AND condi on a variety of weapons.

 

Heck, even Bladesworns can do it with Flicker Step and Dragon Slash skills.  Not only is the timing for the foe uncertain for the Dragon Slash (because it is not necessarily used at any particular time during the Dragon Trigger time so it is already taxing to pay attention to it), but the Unyielding Dragon trait makes it unblindable, unblockable, AND a CC that also does damage.  Often 8K-10K damage, especially with usage of common warrior shout skills.  What the HECK happened to the rule that CC skills do not do damage?  HOW MANY exceptions are we going to make?  Is it just arbitrary at this point?

 

Don't even get me started on Spectre who, in addition to already having the benefits of Shadow Arts and the benefit of being able to spam Heartseeker and Backstab with the only drawback being initiative (these need small cooldowns, too), but they are *rewarded* by Rune of the Chronomancer synergy for basically using *all* of the Spectre unique skills.  So many wells, and so much free quickness.  Not that Deadeye is any better (it's abysmally broken in 2v2s and 3v3s).

 

 I propose either a forced deactivation cooldown of 0.25 - 0.5 seconds after all ports and effective port skills or BOTH a direct AND condi dmg multiplier reduction to 1/2 for 0.5 seconds post 500 range port skills.  Players need to be penalized a bit more on the damage side when using ports.  Mobility should get you to fights and nodes faster and away from fights faster - it shouldn't *increase* your damage because your skills are inherently so fast that a human cannot react to them.  That's not sufficiently telegraphed for a properly balanced, competitive game.  Not that this game doesn't have a whole host of other balance and net code issues already.  

 

TLDR: Port burst combos are not sufficiently telegraphed for a healthy competitive game and either need deactivation cooldowns post-port or direct/condi dmg multiplier penalties that discourage port burst combo activity.

Yup. In other words, a game with an inconsistent design and almost homogenous classes deteriorates to a mess of teleports, AoEs, unkillable builds and faceroll insta-down builds. Who knew! That and also new expansion shinies that get people entertained until the next group of shinies get dangled.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

On 8/2/2022 at 6:04 PM, memausz.7264 said:

or to a player within ranger

i see what you did there. good post tho, many agrees.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm pretty sure that is working as intended, though.  Teleports are both to chase, to escape, and to land those hard hitting skills with big windups.  

[aelska.4609]

I think you are going a little over dramatic there, OP.
Sure, it is not fun to get one-shot by some no-LoS tactics, but its not much different from channeling a skill from stealth... except that it requires both no-LoS and an enemy selected.
It is only effective if your attack hits "all at once" so that the effect of surprise is maximal. Guards are of course the masters of it, thanks to the combination of mighty blow, shield of wrath, smite condition and judge's intervention. Before Feb 2020 patch it was already rare to oneshot someone using this combo, leaving the guard with 4 important skills on cooldown. Now, the damage has been totally shaved, and its up to you to heal back the hp you lost at engage, and to punish the guard from coming to you.

 

These non-telegraphed port combos are also quite rare, we are far from the "elephant of the room" issue you describe. Meanwhile we have weakness, unblockables, non-telegraphed skills, etc. and no one reacts 😞

[Scoobaniec.9561]

One quick fix to said combos would be adding animation to ports like Shiro PT has one. Its not perfect solution to get jumped on from nowhere but at least you wont get comboed it with hard hitting skill out of nowhere.

Id also like chill and cripple being reworked. Chill to get rid of the longer cd recharge and cripple to disable any sort of ability that provides mobility whenever its leap or teleport - im sure warriors would love that one. Cripple been useless and overshadowed by chill for way too long already.