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Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!


Veprovina.4876

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2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

So... If anyone wants to watch the stream for anything Mesmer related, i don't think i'll be able to at that time.

They do keep it after, right?

Yeah you can catch it after the fact too. I plan to at least listen to it while I do other stuff. Im sure I can sit and watch during that time.

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4 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

So... If anyone wants to watch the stream for anything Mesmer related, i don't think i'll be able to at that time.

They do keep it after, right?

They keep the streams on YouTube and will most likely provide full patch notes on the forums after the livestream. 
 

What I wonder is what all the Mesmer mains are doing in preparation for the next patch?  It got awful quiet for a few days when they announced the patch live stream. We all trying to remain calm and centered while Mirage gets ignored again?

Edited by Mungo Zen.9364
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2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

They keep the streams on YouTube and will most likely provide full patch notes on the forums after the livestream. 
 

What I wonder is what all the Mesmer mains are doing in preparation for the next patch?  It got awful quiet for a few days when they announced the patch live stream. We all trying to remain calm and centered while Mirage gets ignored again?

I think so. It seems to be the least active class area on the forums and has been a while now from what I can tell. As far as, number of new topics, number of participants, build discussions, skill change ideas, etc. Seems like many people are probably very discouraged at this point and just don't want to invest hope because it so far just leads to disappointment/resentment.

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2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

They keep the streams on YouTube and will most likely provide full patch notes on the forums after the livestream. 
 

What I wonder is what all the Mesmer mains are doing in preparation for the next patch?  It got awful quiet for a few days when they announced the patch live stream. We all trying to remain calm and centered while Mirage gets ignored again?

Dreading what buff they're going to hand out that will have the already ravenous mesmer haters trying to take away anything fair on mesmer before they turn their ire to what is actually enabling what they complain about.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/126714-remove-catalyst/page/4/#comment-1843500
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/127013-mesmers-full-of-block
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/127201-at-this-point-you-could-just-remove-the-health-bar-from-pvp/

 


Actually I'm going to be either playing WvW and giving 0 effs anymore or playing Cyberpunk because the aforementioned effs given now.

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23 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Dreading what buff they're going to hand out that will have the already ravenous mesmer haters trying to take away anything fair on mesmer before they turn their ire to what is actually enabling what they complain about.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/126714-remove-catalyst/page/4/#comment-1843500
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/127013-mesmers-full-of-block
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/127201-at-this-point-you-could-just-remove-the-health-bar-from-pvp/

 


Actually I'm going to be either playing WvW and giving 0 effs anymore or playing Cyberpunk because the aforementioned effs given now.

All these complains from the same person basically. Low skilled people complain about mesmer is nothing new.
Mesmer is an easy MU for the ranger but these low skilled rangers never stop to cry, go ask them why because I dont know.

On top of that, given how mesmer is treated since cmc came over, that being apparent that he is hates mesmers (and may be sworn to reduce mesmer population to atoms) and being hyper biased towards ele, look at these scepter buffs (and for w/e reason spb as well).

People in this thread have too much copium and hopium in their veins

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Yeah sure, give back Mirage second dodge so I can be unkillable while also killing my opponent.

 

I've recently geared up my Mirage for WvW and it is so comfy and stupid to play. It "only" has one dodge and yet I can dodge as much if not more than a Daredevil. And just like Daredevil my dodge also serve as an attack. The class has access to quite a lot of vigor and those...sandshard or whatever it is making me able to create ambush skill almost all the time. And what counterplay to they have ? If they send me back my condition I can either cleanse them or send them back again. If somehow I'm on low health I can just stealth and ninja vanish away. If I'm CC I can still dodge and prevent any damage. The only class able to relatively easy counter me is SA Deadeye but even against them, I can just burst condi and force them to use their stealth as condi cleanse instead of a tool to reposition or attack...Or I can just not fight them and run away, something both Mesmer and Thief can easily do. 

 

And all of that is possible with only 1 dodge. I really should have played Mirage more when it used to have 2 dodge in WvW, seeing how strong it is with only 1 dodge. 

 

And if people are still not convinced, they should just look at how Vindicator was the moment Anet decided to remove all tradeoff from specs. But if you guys are dead set on wanting to give Mirage back its second dodge (at least in WvW) then please be my guest, bullying people with Mirage ambush is also a fun activity.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Yeah sure, give back Mirage second dodge so I can be unkillable while also killing my opponent.

 

I've recently geared up my Mirage for WvW and it is so comfy and stupid to play. It "only" has one dodge and yet I can dodge as much if not more than a Daredevil. And just like Daredevil my dodge also serve as an attack. The class has access to quite a lot of vigor and those...sandshard or whatever it is making me able to create ambush skill almost all the time. And what counterplay to they have ? If they send me back my condition I can either cleanse them or send them back again. If somehow I'm on low health I can just stealth and ninja vanish away. If I'm CC I can still dodge and prevent any damage. The only class able to relatively easy counter me is SA Deadeye but even against them, I can just burst condi and force them to use their stealth as condi cleanse instead of a tool to reposition or attack...Or I can just not fight them and run away, something both Mesmer and Thief can easily do. 

 

And all of that is possible with only 1 dodge. I really should have played Mirage more when it used to have 2 dodge in WvW, seeing how strong it is with only 1 dodge. 

 

And if people are still not convinced, they should just look at how Vindicator was the moment Anet decided to remove all tradeoff from specs. But if you guys are dead set on wanting to give Mirage back its second dodge (at least in WvW) then please be my guest, bullying people with Mirage ambush is also a fun activity.

 

 

 

 

Are you kidding me... Guess people are desperate now and are capable of telling any kind of lies about mesmers, just to get anets attention! Mirage cant literally harass anybody in WvW in it's current state with one dodge and all other nerfs they have recieved throughout the years. If you get killed by them... then the problem is rather your skill level, than the Mirage you're facing!

And yes Mirage needs to get its dodge back! So either get good or get killed by ambushes I guess 🤷‍♂️

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How to spot a liar 101:

9 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

It "only" has one dodge and yet I can dodge as much if not more than a Daredevil.

Mirage is limited to 1 evade but daredevil to 3. Which means when you reach 100% endurance on mirage, you cant bank more and all passive endurance gained (and improved by vigor) is gone, unlike thief.

Mesmer has poor access to vigor outside of choas BD trait. But lets go: BD chaos GM - 8s every 25s, dueling: critical infusion (nuked edition): 3s every 10s. 1.5s on shatter from mirage.

Thief: trickery 10s on steal (steal is like... 20s cd traited? so 50% uptime from that alone an every single thief plays with it, that good it is).

Acro passive traits, you dont need to invest: 1s icd 3s duration from feline grace. Improved vigor (50% more effective. From 50% to 75%, which means they get evade 1s earler than mesmer IF you account perma vigor applied to both) from endless stamina.

How classes get additional raw endurance : Mirage/mesmer - none.

DRD - Every steal 25 ; Signet of Agility (wvw - whole dodge (50), pvp - 25 (half));  Staff master - 2 endurance per initiative spent, pvp - 1; Brawler tenacity - 10 endurance per "physical utility/elite/heal" usage and also reduce cd of these. Channeled vigor heal  3 pulses 15 endurance each.

Quote

And if people are still not convinced, they should just look at how Vindicator was the moment Anet decided to remove all tradeoff from specs. But if you guys are dead set on wanting to give Mirage back its second dodge (at least in WvW) then please be my guest, bullying people with Mirage ambush is also a fun activity.

Vindicator was literally designed  around 1 evade and it was hyper successful in wvw/pvp with that 1 dodge. Mirage has never been and its shows their malicious intent behind this change without any adjustments but nerfs.

Quote

bullying people with Mirage ambush is also a fun activity.

Ambient creatures arent real players, ya know ?

Edited by semak.7481
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3 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Are you kidding me... Guess people are desperate now and are capable of telling any kind of lies about mesmers, just to get anets attention! Mirage cant literally harass anybody in WvW in it's current state with one dodge and all other nerfs they have recieved throughout the years. If you get killed by them... then the problem is rather your skill level, than the Mirage you're facing!

And yes Mirage needs to get its dodge back! So either get good or get killed by ambushes I guess 🤷‍♂️

 

I was the one playing Mirage actually. And I was the one killing other people, but it's true, I have to get gooder after all I died in 1 battle out of the 5 I had because I burst at the wrong moment. Using Axe/Torche + Staff + Blink, I have enough mobility and stealth to either ambush someone or run away if needed. 

 

 

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

Mirage is limited to 1 evade but daredevil to 3. Which means when you reach 100% endurance on mirage, you cant bank more and all passive endurance gained (and improved by vigor) is gone, unlike thief.

Mesmer has poor access to vigor outside of choas BD trait. But lets go: BD chaos GM - 8s every 25s, dueling: critical infusion (nuked edition): 3s every 10s. 1.5s on shatter from mirage.

If you're wasting vigor at this point this is either poor endurance management or bad timing on your shatter/heal. But since I'm a liar and you seems to be very knowledgeable on how to Mirage, I guess you already know that so I dont need to develop further.

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

Vindicator was literally designed  around 1 evade and it was hyper successful in wvw/pvp with that 1 dodge. Mirage has never been and its shows their malicious intent behind this change without any adjustments but nerfs.

I remember one time, although this was in PvP a few years ago, when Mirage was very popular. I dont know exactly what has been changed, nor really care considering I picked up Mirage to diversify my playtime and from the experience I got the current Mirage is far from being bad spec I read here. 

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

Ambient creatures arent real players, ya know ?

I didnt know ambiant creature were made of Dragonhunter, Deadeye, Soulbeast and Mechanist in WvW. kitten I really learn a lot in this thread. I cant wait to see what I will learn later in this thread, maybe I wasnt actually playing Mirage and this was a deception

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He was probably playing one of these or a variant on these builds:
https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
https://guildjen.com/power-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/

I think the only mesmer builds I really need to try from there are chrono but I am seeing a pattern of inspiration in most builds they rate as great. I'd be lying if I said they were bad, they're not, you can actually fight reasonably well but I've also been trying out some of the other classes and builds around and mesmer doesn't hold a candle to the damage and survivability of some of the other top ranked for other classes.
Grenade holo absolutely dumpsters people in WvW with insane damage output and more than enough cleanses, blocks and invulns. Not exactly lacking for mobility too and it's not even using swiftness or rune.
Willbender is incredibly mobile and will body you very fast with not many ways to counter before they speed away and reset.
Thief....is thief but try that celestial P/P build, I don't think anything can kill it in a 1v1.
Most ranger specs are better than all mesmer specs.
I mostly roam EU though so your mileage will vary.

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I just wish Anet does balances fairly, like they're supposed to. 

Removal of 1 dodge in competitive because maybe a Mirage with 2 pocket IH is abit "too much" fine if that's how it is to you Anet. But at the very least make Mirage Mirrors more intuitive to use in combat. Mirror play is really annoying and that's the main reason why people don't like using it, but it IS a core aspect of Mirage. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I just wish Anet does balances fairly, like they're supposed to. 

Removal of 1 dodge in competitive because maybe a Mirage with 2 pocket IH is abit "too much" fine if that's how it is to you Anet. But at the very least make Mirage Mirrors more intuitive to use in combat. Mirror play is really annoying and that's the main reason why people don't like using it, but it IS a core aspect of Mirage. 

I woulnt call it core aspect of mirage, may be it is, but to me, it seems like its not its core aspect, its a byproduct of utility/heal skills (and a trait), so if you decided to not play with these, is it still a "core aspect" if its not there? More like an optional feature.

Terrorhuz suggested to make desert distortion baseline but remove spawning mirrors on distortion (so in essence, whenever you distort, you have access to ambush, thats it).

This would be a fair trade for getting 2nd dodge back -> no more "pontential" tons of mirrors scattered god know where, in a locations where you might not even want to go and we will dodge complains from other ppl "ungabunga, many mirrors bad !".

Edited by semak.7481
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Mirage dodge is the priority problem, but let's not also forget that mesmers in general are weak compared to everyone else.

 

Just this week i've been one shot by tempest lightning overload, chased catalysts down with 15 seconds of invuln, not to mention blocks, dodges and everything else they have, witnessed weavers heal up to full health from almost dying, permastealth thieves everywhere and let's not forget every other profession that can practically cast 1 skill and bring mesmers to below 25% health.

 

The bias is clear. And we're still gonna pretend mesmers are OP, and listen to and debate trolls that come here and spew nonesense about how they're bullying everyone with 1 dodge mirage. Give me a break.

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One person: "I'm dominating and bullying everyone with Mirage"

Literally everyone else: "Mirage has been too gutted and our experience is way worse than every other class."

 

Seems legit.

 

That said - in order to not lock this thread - please everyone, refrain from discussing this further. We know this person is a troll, don't feed the trolls, this discussion needs to stay on topic, and that is getting back our dodge, not argue with people who are incapable of grasping why this is important, nor do they probably play mesmer themselves.

Discuss other stuff, and don't turn this into a flame war please.

Edited by Veprovina.4876
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13 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

So when someone has a different opinion then we just dismiss it as a troll, got it.

 

Mesmer subsection sure is a nice place for Anet to have a discussion

No, it's when you're proven to troll as @semak.7481 already pointed out inconsistencies in your story.

Furthermore, you seem to be completely missing the point, and how convenient that - now that the balance stream is about to drop - that one completely overpwered mirage would show up and contradict everyone elses experience.

 

Tell me. If you're so dominating the WvW PvP and bullying everyone - do share the build, we'd like to see it.

But that would actually provide something quantifiable and people can test it so others can call you out on it, so i doubt you will provide one. More likely it will devolve into something like "i don't have to prove anything to you" etc. 

But you do - you're the only one having a vastly different experience than literally everyone else so naturally we're curious. 

 

Furthermore - why is your experience the only one that matters? You were more than happy to dismiss everyone in this 11 page thread by coming here out of nowhere claiming how our experiences are all false, that you're the only one in the right because you're dominating the meta. So why is anyone else required to listen to your oppinion at all?

Yet, in literal year - i haven't seen more than a few mirages in WvW. All i see are Virtuosos (that aren't doing too hot either), and Chronos in squads.

 

So forgive me if i stop this charade, and ignore you from now on because - we've all seen this movie before. Someone loses to Mesmers in PvP/WvW, comes here boasting how they're literally dominating the meta and roflstomping all the noobs, how Mesmers are OP and that you as a consciencious mesmer - would like some challange and get nerfed.

Then Anet listens to people like you, and that's how we ended up with 1 dodge and in the gutter.

Because Anet has a bias and would rather listen to someone that confirms that bias, than literally everyone else who has for years been pointing out problems.

 

Well, no more. People who actually play mesmer are finally on the same page - 1 dodge needs to become 2 without tradeoffs, and THEN we can start the work of proper balance, bugfixing and trait fixing. 

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17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

No, it's when you're proven to troll as @semak.7481 already pointed out inconsistencies in your story.

Yes he called me a liar, put some interesting points and stopped there.

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Furthermore, you seem to be completely missing the point, and how convenient that - now that the balance stream is about to drop - that one completely overpwered mirage would show up and contradict everyone elses experience.

I play Mirage because I got bored of playing Engineer and Thief. The balance patch is going to come on the 13 or 14 which means plenty of time before it actually happens.

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

 

Tell me. If you're so dominating the WvW PvP and bullying everyone - do share the build, we'd like to see it.

Apharma gave you the answer but you were too focused on your bias to even notice.

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

But that would actually provide something quantifiable and people can test it so others can call you out on it, so i doubt you will provide one. More likely it will devolve into something like "i don't have to prove anything to you" etc. 

But you do - you're the only one having a vastly different experience than literally everyone else so naturally we're curious.

Ah yes calling me a liar and saying I'm a troll exactly show how curious you are about my build and my performance.

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Furthermore - why is your experience the only one that matters? You were more than happy to dismiss everyone in this 11 page thread by coming here out of nowhere claiming how our experiences are all false, that you're the only one in the right because you're dominating the meta. So why is anyone else required to listen to your oppinion at all?

Where did I say only my experience matter ? Do quote exactly where I said that. I know Mesmer are good a making crap up with illusion and stuff but right now it isnt exactly helping your point. I came here because I recently picked up Mirage for WvW. And the first thing I see is someone asking for Mirage to have double dodge (although the topic is old, the point is still being raised) which for me IS questionnable when I look back at my performance in roaming.

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yet, in literal year - i haven't seen more than a few mirages in WvW. All i see are Virtuosos (that aren't doing too hot either), and Chronos in squads.

If I were you I would call you a liar because no further than yesterday and 2 days ago I got ambushed by a group of 2 Mirage and 1 Specter. But I'm not you so I wont call you a liar, I at least have enough intelligence to accept different opinions.

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

So forgive me if i stop this charade, and ignore you from now on because - we've all seen this movie before. Someone loses to Mesmers in PvP/WvW, comes here boasting how they're literally dominating the meta and roflstomping all the noobs, how Mesmers are OP and that you as a consciencious mesmer - would like some challange and get nerfed.

And this just proved that you did not read anything I wrote and confirm your bias. You read "Mirage - strong" and instantly assumed I was getting bullied by Mirage and it is a skill issue. But just like before you dont bother reading and just attack the person instead of the argument that's being made. 

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Then Anet listens to people like you, and that's how we ended up with 1 dodge and in the gutter.

If Anet listen to me, things like Engineer pistol would have been reworked years ago. But considering it is still the trash it is, I guess Anet ignore me as well

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Because Anet has a bias and would rather listen to someone that confirms that bias, than literally everyone else who has for years been pointing out problems.

I can agree with that considering the state of Mechanist and rifle in any PvP content right now

17 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well, no more. People who actually play mesmer are finally on the same page - 1 dodge needs to become 2 without tradeoffs, and THEN we can start the work of proper balance, bugfixing and trait fixing. 

You mean people who agree with you ? Because I play mesmer and I dont *feel* Mirage needs its second dodge at least for WvW but everyone would rather call me a liar and a troll. 

Edited by Alcatraznc.3869
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2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

@Alcatraznc.3869 I told you - we're done, feel free to block me.

All you're trying to do is get this thread locked, and no one is taking the bait.

Your story doesn't add up, and people saw right through you.

We want this thread to continue, so we're not getting dragged into this.

 

I wont block you but feel free YOU to block me. After all I am not the one who call other players liar trolls or whatever names. I an here to defend my experience. And I do enjoy seeing people bring 0 valuable argument and calling other liar and troll.

 

But I guess I should have known from the very beginning this topic isnt here to discuss about thing it is here so people like you who are trapped in your cage can reassure thenselve that they are right and anyone else who disagree can just get attacked by others.

 

Funny how there is only 1 person here who not only made a little research to know what build I was running but the same person also didnt just attack but instead pointed out other build.  

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If we put all 9*3 => 27 specializations out there excluding core (which is inherited weaker anyway), Mirage might not be at the bottom in WvW roaming, because it's a Mesmer after all, and Mesmer is the better roaming class to begin with, even when it's weaker than Thief. From that perspective, of course it won't be the worst, but still certainly not dominating, and if we only compare with roaming classes, Mirage is still below average I would say. This is also excluding the idea of one trick meme pony that can kill unexperienced players easily, which can easily happen on Mesmer, and can't easily go further than that.

All that being said, I don't even care if Mirage is stronger or weaker comparing to other roaming classes. Having only one dodge in 2/3 of the game modes, is inherited broken in my book. Make this consistent first, and we can talk about how to make it more balanced. Not sure why this is hard to understand for some people. Maybe they don't play PvE, or don't play competitive modes, or just don't care enough because they don't play Mesmer often enough to feel the inconsistency, or simply don't care being treated in an unfair way. I do see some people only care about being strong or weak, and don't really care about designs at all. In that case, I am afraid we'll just have to talk past each others :shrug:

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As @Veprovina.4876 said, let's not waste our time and energy on people who obviously just wants to get this thread locked up. I guess it's scary now when mesmer players are loud about the state of the mesmer and demands a change from Anet! These people are used to us staying silent and just take nerf after nerf after nerf...

No matter what, Mirage needs it's second dodge back (without any tradeoffs), Anet needs to fix Mirages traits/skills/ambushes which is badly nerfed in competetive modes.

The fact is that as a Mirage mainer you cannot join a WvW guild because the guild leaders doesnt see any point on having you in the guild. Mirage cant contribute with much because of the state that it is in. Squads asks you many times to change your Mirage build to Chrono build instead, and some of the leaders are nice enough to let you play as Mirage, but you're usually placed alone in a squad section, which leads to you getting less buffs. Outside of being a roamer (which Mirage still has lots of disadvantages against itself), Mirage isn't content enough in WvW. And the reason to that is Mirages poor state, which you dont need to be Einstein to be able to understand.

So yes Mirage needs to get fixed, and we all know this. Period!

 

Edited by AshkyLicious.4729
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