Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Moradorin.6217]

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Context was kept, when you ran IH you could still evade while stunned and immobilised, you still can. When people ran EM over IH it was for the stunbreak and condition clear but it only cleansed 1 condition at that time, enough for removing immob though. Once the stunbreak was removed you still ran EM for the condition clear and you still do.
Yeah everything was overtuned back then, however mirage was certainly "low intensity" as they say on hardstuck for PvP, it wasn't as horribly overtuned as people said till the CI and CC spam came but as you say, past is the past.
Everything I said about dodging while stunned, while immobilised and while rezzing/stomping/other is still here, today. I agree mirage needs it's 2nd dodge but you can't deny how strong mirage cloak is. I fear until it is changed mechanically, which necessitates a full spec rework according to ANet, mirage may not get it's 2nd dodge back.

TBH I dont care about such details. I have talked about ways to consider and deal with all of those things in past threads on the same topic over the last 4 years. So have others too debated those aspects of Mirage. What I do care about is that Mirage should get a consistent number of dodge uses in all 3 game modes like EVERY other spec. Doubly so because its special mechanic is essentially a dodge and dodge triggered effect (yeah mirrors too but they r gimpy/lame).

 

TBH I had moved on until EoD stuff started to be released. The Vindicator one dodge concept was an obvious attempt to normalize one dodge Mirage. Or at least that was what many people considered when they heard about it and then tried it. However, even Vindicator had issues and they gave up and gave it another dodge. At that time they actually mentioned one dodge Mirage OMG. So here we are with an angry forum of Mirage players wanting to know what is up and why still no 2nd dodge.

 

I see no point in considering anything other than MIRAGE IS DUE A kittenING DODGE CAUSE CMC REMOVED IT 4 years ago for a quick fix that was poor design. You can point to things like, Vindicator's dodge change, the split-mode trade off nature of Mirage and how it impacts play and the number of nerfs that Mirage has gotten both before and since the one dodge change, to objectively assert that it was bad design and is due a 2nd dodge. No other considering needed! Done we won the debate. Now give us our dodge.

[Moradorin.6217]

What I am saying is that they have been monumentally bad and irresponsible in dealing with one dodge, Vindicator and balance since Vindicator consiering Mirage. Plus its been 4 years. Its kittening done and we want our kittening dodge back and I dont think we should need to say or justify a kitten thing and I have not seen anyone able to mount a comprehensive argument against that. THe best they can do is drum up 4+ year old out dated issues.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

What I am saying is that they have been monumentally bad and irresponsible in dealing with one dodge, Vindicator and balance since Vindicator consiering Mirage. Plus its been 4 years. Its kittening done and we want our kittening dodge back and I dont think we should need to say or justify a kitten thing and I have not seen anyone able to mount a comprehensive argument against that. THe best they can do is drum up 4+ year old out dated issues.

I don't think anyone, and I mean anyone disagrees with that.

I remember making posts a year after they nerfed it when I returned. I think back then we had more people defending the one dodge change but i still stated how bad it feels to have just one dodge in PvP.

[katte nici.9483]

You can dodge while stunned or immobed? Nice, you can waste dodges while stunned or immobed. So if you play against Mirage use that. Make them waste their dodges. This is a learn to play issue not a nerf Mirage issue.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, katte nici.9483 said:

You can dodge while stunned or immobed? Nice, you can waste dodges while stunned or immobed. So if you play against Mirage use that. Make them waste their dodges. This is a learn to play issue not a nerf Mirage issue.

Holy crap finally someone understands this logic...I cannot even fathom how people are unwilling to look at flaws and take advantage of them, instead people just keep asking for nerfs and at the end of the day what happens to the player base? They become duller and suddenly you are no longer fighting against players but AI that only knows how to mash buttons.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

I'll troll some thief, since they got old steal back and still sit on 3 dodges 😛

[Loic.9657]

So let's see how things goes when May balance patch come.

Do you guys think they will return our second dodge back as a start of fixing the Mirage?

Or keep shrugging pretend there's nothing happened.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Loic.9657

[Salt Mode.3780]

27 minutes ago, Loic.9657 said:

So let's see how things goes when May balance patch come.

Do you guys think they will return our second dodge back as a start of fixing the Mirage?

Or keep shrug pretend there's nothing happened.

Most likely shrug it off and pretend it never happened. They already slapped our faces when they gave vindicator 2 dodges. I don't recall them ever suggesting vindicator with 2 dodges only with mirage yet here we are. 

[phokus.8934]

42 minutes ago, Loic.9657 said:

So let's see how things goes when May balance patch come.

Do you guys think they will return our second dodge back as a start of fixing the Mirage?

Or keep shrug pretend there's nothing happened.

Honestly at this point I'd rather they not bring back the second dodge.  If they do, they're going to completely gut the class because that's what they do.

[Loic.9657]

11 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Most likely shrug it off and pretend it never happened. They already slapped our faces when they gave vindicator 2 dodges. I don't recall them ever suggesting vindicator with 2 dodges only with mirage yet here we are. 

Agree.

Or maybe worse, keep going his "small cut" and "sacrifice", try everything he can to nerf.

Feb is mantra, we can expect what's in May.
And observe the joy hidden in his expression when streaming the balance patch.

[Loic.9657]

4 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

Honestly at this point I'd rather they not bring back the second dodge.  If they do, they're going to completely gut the class because that's what they do.

How?

[phokus.8934]

37 minutes ago, Loic.9657 said:

How?

You're guess is as good as mine.  But going with a pragmatic approach, they gave vindicator its second dodge back on a whim and Mirage is still left with one.  So that tells me they will completely change how Mirage Cloak works and ambushes/clone interaction if they decide to bring it back.  And based on their track record, it will be worse than having one dodge Mirage.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by phokus.8934

[Tseison.4659]

58 minutes ago, Loic.9657 said:

So let's see how things goes when May balance patch come.

Do you guys think they will return our second dodge back as a start of fixing the Mirage?

Or keep shrug pretend there's nothing happened.

To be honest, with how short the recent progression balance was for us and how they backtracked to chrono stuff and reverted mantras, there’s just so much more as a whole that Mesmers need looking into that I doubt Mirage will be ‘finally’ looked at. 

However, I do think it’s probably taking “longer than usual” because they could be reworking Mirage entirely. So new “shatters”, returning the dodge back but with new features, “hopefully” doing away with mirrors, cleaning up traits and lastly, I get this really bad feeling that if they are reworking the Mirage class, that Mirage Cloak is going to be changed to function differently? 😭

Other than that, May is still about 2 months away and I still doubt they’ll do anything for us. If they could give Vindicator a second dodge, they could have easily given it to Mirage (for PvP/WvW) at the same time. 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 2, 2023 by Tseison.4659

[Loic.9657]

47 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

To be honest, with how short the recent progression balance was for us and how they backtracked to chrono stuff and reverted mantras, there’s just so much more as a whole that Mesmers need looking into that I doubt Mirage will be ‘finally’ looked at. 

However, I do think it’s probably taking “longer than usual” because they could be reworking Mirage entirely. So new “shatters”, returning the dodge back but with new features, “hopefully” doing away with mirrors, cleaning up traits and lastly, I get this really bad feeling that if they are reworking the Mirage class, that Mirage Cloak is going to be changed to function differently? 😭

Other than that, May is still about 2 months away and I still doubt they’ll do anything for us. If they could give Vindicator a second dodge, they could have easily given it to Mirage (for PvP/WvW) at the same time. 🤷‍♀️

It would be very nice if they are going to rework traits, shatter abilities, ambushes, deception skills, cloak, everything.
For me, all these things should be rework, and Mirage should be what Mirage should be like, even if the whole elite spec will become different.  (As long as not a handicapped core mesmer)

It shouldn't be worse than the current situation......right?

Edited March 2, 2023 by Loic.9657

[Moradorin.6217]

14 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

I'll troll some thief, since they got old steal back and still sit on 3 dodges 😛

to be fair didnt DD lose unblockable range attack that steps them to opponent  with that change tho?

 

Not that it changes anything to since its not a split mode thing in which they suddenly have only 1 dodge in wvw but still all the dodge in pve. One dodge Mirage is a very strange and totally unique nerf.

Edited March 2, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[apharma.3741]

7 hours ago, Loic.9657 said:

So let's see how things goes when May balance patch come.

Do you guys think they will return our second dodge back as a start of fixing the Mirage?

Or keep shrugging pretend there's nothing happened.

No.

/15flyingquaggans

[Gesbo.6420]

11 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

To be honest, with how short the recent progression balance was for us and how they backtracked to chrono stuff and reverted mantras, there’s just so much more as a whole that Mesmers need looking into that I doubt Mirage will be ‘finally’ looked at. 

However, I do think it’s probably taking “longer than usual” because they could be reworking Mirage entirely. So new “shatters”, returning the dodge back but with new features, “hopefully” doing away with mirrors, cleaning up traits and lastly, I get this really bad feeling that if they are reworking the Mirage class, that Mirage Cloak is going to be changed to function differently? 😭

Other than that, May is still about 2 months away and I still doubt they’ll do anything for us. If they could give Vindicator a second dodge, they could have easily given it to Mirage (for PvP/WvW) at the same time. 🤷‍♀️

To be fair I would prefer mirage be reworked than deleted. In its current state it doesnt see any play in competetive modes. Reworking the traits and the class as a whole is better than it staying in a place where it is unplayable. 

 

With the ammount of waiting we've done, however, the rework doesnt need to be just passable but it needs to be great. For the 3 years of radio silence a rework needs to completely shake the spec and can not be just "Cant mirage cloack when imobilised so it can be balanced". 

 

I guess that on the next preview of the balance come may there needs to be a serious roar from the community if no Mirage changes are mentioned...

Edited March 2, 2023 by Gesbo.6420
spelling

[Hector.7806]

I play all mesmers.

Mesmer, Mirage, Chrono and Virtuoso.

And the fact that "One is different in 1 game mode" it just sucks too much.

 

They can nerf vigor to the ground or whatever, but this gameplay changes to something as core as dodging is just HORRIBLE

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Hector.7806 said:

I play all mesmers.

Mesmer, Mirage, Chrono and Virtuoso.

And the fact that "One is different in 1 game mode" it just sucks too much.

 

They can nerf vigor to the ground or whatever, but this gameplay changes to something as core as dodging is just HORRIBLE

what vigour? XD

[Moradorin.6217]

☕🦸🦤

[katte nici.9483]

I want double dodge.

[TwiceDead.1963]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:28 AM, apharma.3741 said:

It's not just CMC's logic, it was one of the primary complaints from many top PvP players when mirage came out including many of the best mesmers in the game from EU. You made a mistake and got stunned? You can just dodge the damage. You got immobilised? Just dodge the follow up and bonus you cleanse the immobilise because everyone ran elusive mind. Essentially it was a bad safety net for players and it broke the contract of fair play where hitting you with a hard to hit skill that should leave you vulnerable denied the follow up. Additionally you could avoid damage or CC that might interrupt a channel on temple, interrupt a rez or a stomp. I see people are only considering 1v1 but often a mirage can burn a dodge or two to secure the stomp and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.
This isn't a commentary on the strength of the class, it's on the mechanic of mirage cloak and how it circumvents a lot of rules in the game.

There is no other class that can do this on top of their usual ability to safe stomp, rez, channel etc. Maybe mirage should be redesigned from the ground up, maybe even the whole mesmer class and elite specs at this point. Though given how Virtuoso turned out I don't have much hope.

Been reading pretty far back through these pages, but this is one of the few nuggets of value I read.

[ascii.1369]

19 minutes ago, TwiceDead.1963 said:

Been reading pretty far back through these pages, but this is one of the few nuggets of value I read.

I agree, but when I pointed this out in the past, people went nuts, acting as if the only thing special about mirage is that it can dodge while disabled.

 

There is so much about mirage that could be buffed if it‘s dodge wasn’t so broken.

[ventress.4879]

2 hours ago, TwiceDead.1963 said:

Been reading pretty far back through these pages, but this is one of the few nuggets of value I read.

Another thing to note is the Endurance Regeneration is not impacted by the single dodge outside of Vigor nerfs. You can dodge at the same frequency as a normal 2 dodge player, you just can't dodge twice in a row.

I would still like to see Mirage get its second dodge back but at the same time it does need some fine tuning, maybe put a cast time of 0.25 seconds per dodge like they did with Unnatural Traversal on Untamed.

[apharma.3741]

13 hours ago, ventress.4879 said:

Another thing to note is the Endurance Regeneration is not impacted by the single dodge outside of Vigor nerfs. You can dodge at the same frequency as a normal 2 dodge player, you just can't dodge twice in a row.

I would still like to see Mirage get its second dodge back but at the same time it does need some fine tuning, maybe put a cast time of 0.25 seconds per dodge like they did with Unnatural Traversal on Untamed.

While this is true the management of that dodge is different, you can't store extra endurance in the tank. Once you're full, you're full and any extra essentially goes to waste, especially if you don't need to dodge and have 5s of precious vigor ticking away which you can't get back. A 2 dodge class will get to expend a dodge if full and ambush or might only have 1 dodge and let it continue filling the second dodge.