Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[ventress.4879]

41 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

While this is true the management of that dodge is different, you can't store extra endurance in the tank. Once you're full, you're full and any extra essentially goes to waste, especially if you don't need to dodge and have 5s of precious vigor ticking away which you can't get back. A 2 dodge class will get to expend a dodge if full and ambush or might only have 1 dodge and let it continue filling the second dodge.
 

Yeah this further elaborates my point. To really use the Mirage dodge effectively you need to spam it off cooldown with something like the sword ambush. 

I still feel like the best alternative is to have 2 dodges with something prevent you using it while stunned (like every other dodge). 

[Moradorin.6217]

On 3/10/2023 at 12:27 AM, apharma.3741 said:

While this is true the management of that dodge is different, you can't store extra endurance in the tank. Once you're full, you're full and any extra essentially goes to waste, especially if you don't need to dodge and have 5s of precious vigor ticking away which you can't get back. A 2 dodge class will get to expend a dodge if full and ambush or might only have 1 dodge and let it continue filling the second dodge.
 

Yeah, I mean to me a few things about the one dodge Mirage change that flat out makes it bad design and turns it onto an inconsistent sort of espec that is really two specs a wvw/pvp and a pvp spec which are NOT the same spec are the way energy management is the same as normal dodge which basically reduces the benefit of things like Vigor and + energy regen food.

 

Basically two things: The way energy pool and regen are the same weather you are in a one dodge game mode or pve (the two dodge mode) and also the way that only having one dodge at a time in the que changes how the spec is played.

 

The one dodge in the que issue means that Mirage is not used like it normally is now in pvp/wvw but rather you have to covet each precious dodge and you cannot afford to use them for damage and effects because you might need the one dodge you have to actually dodge. This makes allot of play and counter-play impossible on Mirage and forces people to use things like signet traits to gain distortion because they cannot use dodge or just build for all or nothing one shot snipe and run. No other practical option. Granted I ran around for a year+ on it as a roamer but eventually I gave into the signet dist thing cause it was 100% necessary with only one dodge. Jumping between pve and wvw is a typical thing any slightly serious player would do. Well with one dodge they cannot change modes on the same spec fluidly because it changes too much. Its very impractical and jarring to try and do on a daily basis. For me I stopped playing pve and only did wvw on my Mirage because the transition from pve to wvw became too strange. Now my Mesmer with 6k hours is no longer my main and I dont even play it since I stoped doing wvw daily. Now I mostly pve on engi, rev, nec, ranger like everyone else and when I wvw I use a herald, engi or ranger cause all 3 are hella op. =p

 

For Mirage's ability to dodge while stunned it really was never a bit issue other than the way IH triggers clones to attack when the Mirage dodges. What I mean is, when IH is not traited a mirage that dodges while stunned doesnt dish a bunch of damage and cc. Its when the Mirage has 3 clones out and can get them all to ambush the target during the stun that it can seem inconsistent with other specs.

Personally, I think to start a short .5-2s cooldown on IH would be enough to keep that from being an issue.

 

A more elegant fix would be to modify ambush code or what ever snippet of code triggers the ambush to have a flag for cc that would would not trigger ambush when CC=positive, basically. Without seeing code its impossible suggest more. (edited to fix typo)

 

In either case, I don't feel like any of that justified the one dodge change in the first place. The correct change would have been to alter when and how ambush is applied or to tune the output of ambushes, or to redesign the spec so it still has a consistent number of dodges in all 3 modes.

 

For instance, if they didn't do it intending to kill the spec in pvp/wvw they could have removed a dodge in all 3 modes and just balanced the damage with one dodge in all 3 modes. Then people would have the resricted dodge frequency in pvp/wvw but it would, at least, be a consistent spec for people who actually choose to play it as a main. Its gimpy af at present.

 

(Also I just wanted to state that I changed from energy regen food to ascended -10% to damage taken food during the time I was playing one dodge. It was more beneficial than the energy regen due to the pool size and no overflow into 2nd dodge half)

Edited March 11 by Moradorin.6217

[katte nici.9483]

I am trying Willbender for WvW roaming. All i can say is lol is this even the same game? You could give Mirage 3 dodges and it still wouldn't be a contest. What are we even arguing about here.

[ventress.4879]

5 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Yeah, I mean to me a few things about the one dodge Mirage change that flat out makes it bad design and turns it onto an inconsistent sort of espec that is really two specs a wvw/pvp and a pvp spec which are NOT the same spec are the way energy management is the same as normal dodge which basically reduces the benefit of things like Vigor and + energy regen food.

 

Basically two things: The way energy pool and regen are the same weather you are in a one dodge game mode or pve (the two dodge mode) and also the way that only having one dodge at a time in the que changes how the spec is played.

 

The one dodge in the que issue means that Mirage is not used like it normally is now in pvp/wvw but rather you have to covet each precious dodge and you cannot afford to use them for damage and effects because you might need the one dodge you have to actually dodge. This makes allot of play and counter-play impossible on Mirage and forces people to use things like signet traits to gain distortion because they cannot use dodge or just build for all or nothing one shot snipe and run. No other practical option. Granted I ran around for a year+ on it as a roamer but eventually I gave into the signet dist thing cause it was 100% necessary with only one dodge. Jumping between pve and wvw is a typical thing any slightly serious player would do. Well with one dodge they cannot change modes on the same spec fluidly because it changes too much. Its very impractical and jarring to try and do on a daily basis. For me I stopped playing pve and only did wvw on my Mirage because the transition from pve to wvw became too strange. Now my Mesmer with 6k hours is no longer my main and I dont even play it since I stoped doing wvw daily. Now I mostly pve on engi, rev, nec, ranger like everyone else and when I wvw I use a herald, engi or ranger cause all 3 are hella op. =p

 

For Mirage's ability to dodge while stunned it really was never a bit issue other than the way IH triggers clones to attack when the Mirage dodges. What I mean is, when IH is not traited a mirage that dodges while stunned doesnt dish a bunch of damage and cc. Its when the Mirage has 3 clones out and can get them all to ambush the target during the stun that it can seem inconsistent with other specs.

Personally, I think to start a short .5-2s cooldown on IH would be enough to keep that from being an issue.

 

A more elegant fix would be to modify ambush code or what ever snippet of code triggers the ambush to have a flag for dodge that would would not trigger ambush when dodge=positive, basically. Without seeing code its impossible suggest more.

 

In either case, I don't feel like any of that justified the one dodge change in the first place. The correct change would have been to alter when and how ambush is applied or to tune the output of ambushes, or to redesign the spec so it still has a consistent number of dodges in all 3 modes.

 

For instance, if they didn't do it intending to kill the spec in pvp/wvw they could have removed a dodge in all 3 modes and just balanced the damage with one dodge in all 3 modes. Then people would have the resricted dodge frequency in pvp/wvw but it would, at least, be a consistent spec for people who actually choose to play it as a main. Its gimpy af at present.

 

(Also I just wanted to state that I changed from energy regen food to ascended -10% to damage taken food during the time I was playing one dodge. It was more beneficial than the energy regen due to the pool size and no overflow into 2nd dodge half)

Pretty much the same experience but I was already using the Signet distortion spam before the one dodge change. 

I believe there is a solution that can keep everyone happy but it's whether they have the knowledge to even do it. I remember CMC talking about how they modified the Soulbeast merge to have a pet swap built in and not having any idea if it was even possible before they tried. 

I would say we are in a similar situation, they have no idea how they can modify Mirage to make it more healthy in PvP. 

[Moradorin.6217]

On 3/10/2023 at 1:54 PM, ventress.4879 said:

Pretty much the same experience but I was already using the Signet distortion spam before the one dodge change. 

I believe there is a solution that can keep everyone happy but it's whether they have the knowledge to even do it. I remember CMC talking about how they modified the Soulbeast merge to have a pet swap built in and not having any idea if it was even possible before they tried. 

I would say we are in a similar situation, they have no idea how they can modify Mirage to make it more healthy in PvP. 

Well soulbeast got pet merge removed shortly after Mirage lost its dodge. As I recall that and other changes became labeled as trade-offs and everyone was told its ok cause all classes are getting trade-offs which never happened. Then with the most recent wave of patches they announced the removal of trade-offs and gave Soulbest back its ability to swap pets while also retaining its ability to merge and chrono got back distortion and Vindi was granted an additional dodge in all modes and Virt was granted distortion, and druid got its pet damage in wvw/pvp returned. Meanwhile, Mirage is trolled about its missing dodge in the stream by CMC but no actual change or mention in the last ~6 months.

How is anyone to think that is somehow not bias??

Edited March 12 by Moradorin.6217

[ventress.4879]

On 3/13/2023 at 4:17 AM, Moradorin.6217 said:

Well soulbeast got pet merge removed shortly after Mirage lost its dodge. As I recall that and other changes became labeled as trade-offs and everyone was told its ok cause all classes are getting trade-offs which never happened. Then with the most recent wave of patches they announced the removal of trade-offs and gave Soulbest back its ability to swap pets while also retaining its ability to merge and chrono got back distortion and Vindi was granted an additional dodge in all modes and Virt was granted distortion, and druid got its pet damage in wvw/pvp returned. Meanwhile, Mirage is trolled about its missing dodge in the stream by CMC but no actual change or mention in the last ~6 months.

How is anyone to think that is somehow not bias??

True they are bias; we can only hope they can come up with some sort of solution.

I thought it would be funny if they have been trying to tweak the Mirage Cloak, but they could not figure it out, due to whoever coded it before making it too complex to change.

Edited March 13 by ventress.4879

[viquing.8254]

Replying two pages ago :

Sorry guys but when I look at some classes who have easy access to breakstunt and/or stab, dodging while CCed didn't seems OP at all.

Mean example like : "you get hit by a hard to hit skills and ho you evade while cced" can be applyied to every meta build with 15 sec cd breakstunt, 75% stab uptime between block/evade skills and so on.

It's like when they normalize mesmer scepter output to be on par with necro axe with same gear : 3 pages of whines then mesmer scepter came back to only a small percentage of what other similar skills does at equivalent gear.

Fact is that most meta classes, currently and in the past, didn't need mirage evade to be nearly immune to CC. So complaints put in perspective look kinda poor IMO.

Edited March 13 by viquing.8254

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, viquing.8254 said:

Replying two pages ago :

Sorry guys but when I look at some classes who have easy access to breakstunt and/or stab, dodging while CCed didn't seems OP at all.

Mean example like : "you get hit by a hard to hit skills and ho you evade while cced" can be applyied to every meta build with 15 sec cd breakstunt, 75% stab uptime between block/evade skills and so on.

It's like when they normalize mesmer scepter output to be on par with necro axe with same gear : 3 pages of whines then mesmer scepter came back to only a small percentage of what other similar skills does at equivalent gear.

Fact is that most meta classes, currently and in the past, didn't need mirage evade to be nearly immune to CC. So complaints put in perspective look kinda poor IMO.

I agree. I mean at one point Mesmer did have access to stab if traited and stuff too, but it was mostly not run cause Illusions and dueling was the best trait lines for a condi Mir untill they started to nerf torch, scepter, etc then when they removed a dodge everyone started wanting to use insp or chaos or both.

 

Anyway I do agree that Mirage was dealing with other specs that had various compensations at various times to make them on par in pvp/wvw. Like anything it always came down to the match-up of spec vs spec and the ability of each player in a fair fight.

 

I think they could just return the dodge to Mirage without needing any other immediate changes. They could easily make other changes later or roll it back if it proves too much. At this point tho I think Mirage would still have a hard time dealing enough sustained damage and pressure to kill most current builds being played competently even with a 2nd dodge.

[Moradorin.6217]

💘

[Xenesis.6389]

Mirage should have it's second dodge back and jaunt un-nerfed.

They go and load willbenders, a spec with a base class that already has a ton of sustain available, now with more mobility than a thief, but somehow it's offensive for a mesmer to have sustain or mobility.

They go and load guards and ele specs with a ton of sustain, because "low base hitpoints", but it's offensive when mesmer has the same, how many times was chrono nerfed for being "too tanky", mirage nerfs to it's dodge and base mesmer traits cause too much sustain. Absolute 🤡 balancing.

[Loic.9657]

On 3/18/2023 at 5:00 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Mirage should have it's second dodge back and jaunt un-nerfed.

They go and load willbenders, a spec with a base class that already has a ton of sustain available, now with more mobility than a thief, but somehow it's offensive for a mesmer to have sustain or mobility.

They go and load guards and ele specs with a ton of sustain, because "low base hitpoints", but it's offensive when mesmer has the same, how many times was chrono nerfed for being "too tanky", mirage nerfs to it's dodge and base mesmer traits cause too much sustain. Absolute 🤡 balancing.

🤡m🤡 logic.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 3/19/2023 at 7:16 PM, Loic.9657 said:

🤡m🤡 logic.

keep calm and drink your water