Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Veprovina.4876]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

No one is giving up. Far from it. I plan to just keep reminding everyone.

We cannot control what Anet does, but we dont have to accept having the only class in game with one dodge that is a split mode after the fact nerf that was done as a trade-off which they themselves claimed was a thing they are/have removing/removed. However, I will be be happy to say I was too quick to judge and thank them and say I was wrong if they follow through and remove Mirage's trade-off (one dodge).

 

My hope is that they come back in a few weeks and say it was in the works and they have been busy and plan to give Mirage back its other dodge next big patch. That would be just fine with me. I will be happy to say I was too critical and impatient if that proves to be the case. However, with regards to patience it has been 3 years now...

That's good! I too am hoping they give us back the second dodge the next patch as well.

I'm not expecting anything before the next big one, nor am i expecting anything for the holidays, let them have their peace.

And i'm hoping that we can get past this silly feud Anet is apparently having with Mesmers or something, and create a good gameplay experience for everyone, no matter the class. Because, this is ridiculous.

The fact we have to fight so hard for something so basic like dignity in a video game is really not ok.

 

And yeah, i get it, "quit if you're not having fun blah blah", and again, not the point. We want the same good experience as everyone else, and that shouldn't be as hard an ask as it is now.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

It really makes me happy seeing all of us standing up for our gaming experience in this game! We really need to just keep this going, and hopefully they'll listen and make the changes that Mesmers, Mirages and Chronos need! 

Its absolutly not ok in any way how Anet and other players has been treating us during these years. Like how is it possible for a company to destroy a crucial part of the game to the extend that its unplayable or a meme in 2 of 3 game modes?! Mirage is a living proof of that form of destruction in Gw2... and everyday when I play my Mirage toon in WvW, I get reminded of the big mess Anet created for this unique and cool eSpec! So freaking undeserved in every sense... One dodge is one problem... but the reality of our totally gutted traits and nerfed skills... Its so unprofessional that Im still speechless til this day!

And having to put up with all the fakers that pretend that they play mesmer "alot" and that they have "mastered all the eSpecs", just to say "Mesmers and their eSpecs are in a good/great place right now", gives me the ick... Like talk about being desperate to keep mesmer on garbage tier!

We just need to keep this up and keep on complaining! That's atleast way better than staying silent...

And for the last time: No! I don't want reroll to another class! I just want to enjoy my Mesmer on the same level everybody else enjoys their classes! And no! I don't want to quit this game either. Keep those cheap words to youselves and focus on your own thing instead! And Anet, get your act together, its about time! Cuz kitten you guys really like to dig yourselves deeper into the unprofessional hole... fix your game, improve it! And you'll see that your game will excel to new heights! 

Edited December 28, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[apharma.3741]

7 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

It really makes me happy seeing all of us standing up for our gaming experience in this game! We really need to just keep this going, and hopefully they'll listen and make the changes that Mesmers, Mirages and Chronos need! 

Its absolutly not ok in any way how Anet and other players has been treating us during these years. Like how is it possible for a company to destroy a crucial part of the game to the extend that its unplayable or a meme in 2 of 3 game modes?! Mirage is a living proof of that form of destruction in Gw2... and everyday when I play my Mirage toon in WvW, I get reminded of the big mess Anet created for this unique and cool eSpec! So freaking undeserved in every sense... One dodge is one problem... but the reality of our totally gutted traits and nerfed skills... Its so unprofessional that Im still speechless til this day!

And having to put up with all the fakers that pretend that they play mesmer "alot" and that they have "mastered all the eSpecs", just to say "Mesmers and their eSpecs are in a good/great place right now", gives me the ick... Like talk about being desperate to keep mesmer on garbage tier!

We just need to keep this up and keep on complaining! That's atleast way better than staying silent...

And for the last time: No! I don't want reroll to another class! I just want to enjoy my Mesmer on the same level everybody else enjoys their classes! And no! I don't want to quit this game either. Keep those cheap words to youselves and focus on your own thing instead! And Anet, get your act together, its about time! Cuz kitten you guys really like to dig yourselves deeper into the unprofessional hole... fix your game, improve it! And you'll see that your game will excel to new hights! 

You should look up Smiters Boon, it's an industry term now because of how it was handled.
The reality is many people hate fighting mesmer and always want it underpowered, I knew quite a few streamers and their clique who said "mesmer is just balanced now where it requires skill" and when you press them on the other classes needing skill they ignore or deflect saying ANet will in time. That time never came. They also do get an ear with the devs, how much of their bias against mesmer gets through I don't know but I certainly know a few devs have a history of disliking mesmer or thinking it's way too strong because of 2-3 skills while ignoring that the class is largely rubbish outside of that.
However, I firmly think ANet need to be careful about 2nd dodge on mirage, mirage cloak is too good and shouldn't have existed, continuum split too and why on earth did they give distortion back to virtuoso. Virtuoso really needs to have distortion removed, a dagger rework and shatters to be cast behind you, it really doesn't need distortion.

[Senqu.8054]

The last half year I worked intensive on my second Master degree and evaluated a global operating company. I've learned several techniques to measure process performance.  For this I created a maturity model and measuring points for the application of Six Sigma and recorded and evaluated thousands of key figures. Last but not least I created a 40k word essay with 165 sites, cited key Literatur and showed academically the need of the developed tools. The results of my thesis are now used to improve the process performance which will save the company a lot of money.

Others of us got children, moved to another country or state and began a totally different life from the one they had in the past. One or two even were promoted and are now working on tasks not even remotely like the ones they did. We had to learn complex stuff very new to us and are able to meet the requirements for our job, for our lives, for ourselves. Life changed for us all I could say. 

 

But not GW2. GW2 stayed the same. The same bugged, broken balanced game it started to be after the first years. We did all the mentioned things above while ANet managed to come up with ~ 10 number changes to mesmer in PvP and WvW from which 50% are nerfs and they still haven’t reverted the one dodge nerf.
 

The point is, this stuff needs so long to be fixed, by the time it is fixed humanity has reach world peace or a state of warhammer 40k.

[Varis.5467]

🆙

Mesmer mains united. 

[Veprovina.4876]

15 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

And having to put up with all the fakers that pretend that they play mesmer "alot" and that they have "mastered all the eSpecs", just to say "Mesmers and their eSpecs are in a good/great place right now", gives me the ick... Like talk about being desperate to keep mesmer on garbage tier!

Nailed it here! People hate fighting mesmers and want us to fail. Well i hate fighting Thieves and all their especs, but i'm not on their forums pretending to be a thief main and how i'm roflsteamrolling everything with 100k dps and how OP i am, just so Anet nerfes thieves and i have an easier time in WvW. I don't know why people feel they have the right to do this to us. It's basically griefing. And Anet is participating in it by being partial to those people.

 

8 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

You should look up Smiters Boon, it's an industry term now because of how it was handled.
The reality is many people hate fighting mesmer and always want it underpowered, I knew quite a few streamers and their clique who said "mesmer is just balanced now where it requires skill" and when you press them on the other classes needing skill they ignore or deflect saying ANet will in time. That time never came. They also do get an ear with the devs, how much of their bias against mesmer gets through I don't know but I certainly know a few devs have a history of disliking mesmer or thinking it's way too strong because of 2-3 skills while ignoring that the class is largely rubbish outside of that.

Oh yes, i forgot about streamers. I cringe every time some of them do videos about updates and the mesmer section, they're ALWAYS enforcing the notion mesmers are top tier, and none of them main a mesmer. Then all the tier list crap and 40 minute "balance discussions" where all they do is spam how OP everything on mesmer is without any context whatsoever. Makes me cringe.

8 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

However, I firmly think ANet need to be careful about 2nd dodge on mirage, mirage cloak is too good and shouldn't have existed, continuum split too and why on earth did they give distortion back to virtuoso. Virtuoso really needs to have distortion removed, a dagger rework and shatters to be cast behind you, it really doesn't need distortion.

Oh don't do this, this has been discussed ad nauseam for years now. If they give mirage 3 dodges now, literally nothing would change in competitive modes because of how everything else is garbage and destroyed. You could also argue normal dodge is better, and don't forget, daredevil has 3 of those.

Plus,  how can you say that when stuff like permastealth thieves exist where a full squad of people can't kill one person in a keep in WvW, i mean, you're saying mirage dodge is OP? Or continuum split that literally teleports you back into the enemy blob if you're not lucky with positioning?

 

This mentality is exactly the reason mesmers are garbage now. Until we start liking our class, and sincerely hoping it gets better, together, nothing will get better. And i swear some people are conditioned through years of abuse to think that something is OP because every time something was remotely ok, it got nerfed under the guise of OP, and people started to do this themselves.

 

Tell me. How is Mirage cloak OP? You can dodge thorugh some cc or something and get an ambush? Whoopteee doo, as soon as you do, you're gonna get burst down by literally everyone 1v1, and die. So OP.

Now compare this to thief stealth, and think about it again how OP mirage is and how OP continuum split is...

 

Stop acting like anything is OP on mesmer, it's literally the worst it's been from any expansion. It was ok in path of fire last i remember, it was kinda fun roaming on mirage, and i could get a kill now and then. Now i can't do damage. How is mirage cloak OP when i can't do damage to anyone? On full viper's too. Or with chrono. Every time i roam, and get 1v1, i get killed by literally everyone. Continuum split so op here, totally! Please stop with this. We need to stop this endless nerfing and get our class fixed!

And "oh i think this is op" when it's clearly not is not helping.

 

8 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

The last half year I worked intensive on my second Master degree and evaluated a global operating company. I've learned several techniques to measure process performance.  For this I created a maturity model and measuring points for the application of Six Sigma and recorded and evaluated thousands of key figures. Last but not least I created a 40k word essay with 165 sites, cited key Literatur and showed academically the need of the developed tools. The results of my thesis are now used to improve the process performance which will save the company a lot of money.

Others of us got children, moved to another country or state and began a totally different life from the one they had in the past. One or two even were promoted and are now working on tasks not even remotely like the ones they did. We had to learn complex stuff very new to us and are able to meet the requirements for our job, for our lives, for ourselves. Life changed for us all I could say. 

 

But not GW2. GW2 stayed the same. The same bugged, broken balanced game it started to be after the first years. We did all the mentioned things above while ANet managed to come up with ~ 10 number changes to mesmer in PvP and WvW from which 50% are nerfs and they still haven’t reverted the one dodge nerf.
 

The point is, this stuff needs so long to be fixed, by the time it is fixed humanity has reach world peace or a state of warhammer 40k.

Does make you think what they're doing when you put it like that. And i know exactly what you mean. How number changes as become the best we can hope for, and balance became so horridly handled is beyond me. 😕

 

And we're still begging for that one dodge back, years later, after yet more nerfs that weren't necesary, and we're still here.

I literally don't know why they're doing this to us.

[Infusion.7149]

While I understand the rationale of the "mirage cloak OP" complaints (since you do an ambush = more damage especially with Infinite Horizon) while "evading" and also "ignoring immob", mesmers definitely need two dodges. Even more so when you consider a spec designed around a single dodge was remade to have two dodges (vindicator).
Having a core game mechanic that is not consistent between modes (dodge) is the worst kind of balance possible, with jaunt and blink already split between game modes. That is on top of clones' ambushes having nerfs applied already and the amount of cleave currently present allowing for clones to be dealt with extremely efficiently.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Veprovina.4876]

46 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

While I understand the rationale of the "mirage cloak OP" complaints (since you do an ambush = more damage especially with Infinite Horizon) while "evading" and also "ignoring immob", mesmers definitely need two dodges. Even more so when you consider a spec designed around a single dodge was remade to have two dodges (vindicator).
Having a core game mechanic that is not consistent between modes (dodge) is the worst kind of balance possible, with jaunt and blink already split between game modes. That is on top of clones' ambushes having nerfs applied already and the amount of cleave currently present allowing for clones to be dealt with extremely efficiently.

Thank you! And yes, if a class that was designed around one dodge was remade to have two, i don't see why we are the only ones still stuck with one, AND it's split between modes. It's extremely janky to say the least, but also incredibly crippling, especially after so many nerfs and bugs (though, they did fix one axe bug).

[AshkyLicious.4729]

The biggest issue that I see right now is how we get Anet to rather listen to us Mesmer mainers, rather than listening to the streamers and other players that acts like a "Hate Mesmer" army, who's ready to jump over hoops just to make sure that Mesmers stays nerfed in every single way?!

It's ridiculous how thiefs are so OP when it comes to dodging and stealthing in this game, but nobody seems to care at all! That's just totally ok for everybody... or yeah I see some people in the chat on WvW always complaining about facing a thief, but that's about it... But still Mirage was gamebreaking in every sense?! I dont even remember to be able to dodge and stay alive no matter what (like thiefs can) when I played my Mirage before all the nerfs Anet did to our eSpec? And Im certainly not the worst Mirage player! So remind me again.... how were we too OP again? Seems like a broken record today that people keep put on repeat as a statement to keep Mirage garbage, cuz god forbid that Mirage or any other Mesmer spec (well besides Virtuouso) gets buffed again in this game! Mind numbing... and def mind numbing how Anet even allows themselves to destroy this game for the part of their players that enjoys playing as Mesmers! kitten behaviour from Anet first of all!

Edited December 28, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[apharma.3741]

5 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Oh don't do this, this has been discussed ad nauseam for years now. If they give mirage 3 dodges now, literally nothing would change in competitive modes because of how everything else is garbage and destroyed. You could also argue normal dodge is better, and don't forget, daredevil has 3 of those.

Plus,  how can you say that when stuff like permastealth thieves exist where a full squad of people can't kill one person in a keep in WvW, i mean, you're saying mirage dodge is OP? Or continuum split that literally teleports you back into the enemy blob if you're not lucky with positioning?

 

This mentality is exactly the reason mesmers are garbage now. Until we start liking our class, and sincerely hoping it gets better, together, nothing will get better. And i swear some people are conditioned through years of abuse to think that something is OP because every time something was remotely ok, it got nerfed under the guise of OP, and people started to do this themselves.

 

Tell me. How is Mirage cloak OP? You can dodge thorugh some cc or something and get an ambush? Whoopteee doo, as soon as you do, you're gonna get burst down by literally everyone 1v1, and die. So OP.

Now compare this to thief stealth, and think about it again how OP mirage is and how OP continuum split is...

 

Stop acting like anything is OP on mesmer, it's literally the worst it's been from any expansion. It was ok in path of fire last i remember, it was kinda fun roaming on mirage, and i could get a kill now and then. Now i can't do damage. How is mirage cloak OP when i can't do damage to anyone? On full viper's too. Or with chrono. Every time i roam, and get 1v1, i get killed by literally everyone. Continuum split so op here, totally! Please stop with this. We need to stop this endless nerfing and get our class fixed!

And "oh i think this is op" when it's clearly not is not helping.

Has it occured to you that maybe many of the problems that plague mesmer across the specs are down to nerfs due to individual specs abusing them? Take the vigor traits, all nerfed BECAUSE OF MIRAGE, if you give a 2nd dodge back to mirage you can bet those will never, ever get touched so the rest of the class suffers.
Take phantasm skills, absolutely garbage now, long cast, kinda weak, why? Because Chrono can get each one 4 times using continuum split and chronophantasma. It used to be 8 with old Signet of Ether, yet another skill nerfed due to chrono.
Now I'm going to spell it out for the echo chamber because you all can't see past your noses, if you want mesmer as a class to be good you have to acknowledge the broken stuff on mesmer and how 80% of the class has to be hot garbage in order for that stuff to stay. Continuum split has been the source of so many nerfs and holding back things getting buffed it's honestly not even funny anymore, think about it. You make something good on core, mirage and Vituoso, chrono can do it twice in a row and suddenly it's too strong.
To answer your question about mirage cloak, you can dodge while doing ANY action and it won't interrupt the action. That means you can dodge a daze/stun while channeling or rezzing in addition to being able to dodge while stunned or dazed or immobilised. If you can't see how strong that is you are every bit the problem as the streamers and others wanting to keep mesmer bad.

By the way I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth or contort what I say. I did not say mirage or chrono were OP, I specifically said certain aspects of them were too good, and they are, which is also why the rest of the class suffers. Just like Virtuoso is not OP because it basically does nothing but it's block and invuln uptime is way too high, in large part due to the addition of distortion as a shatter while the rest of the shatters are an aweful mess to use. Don't even get me started on what they did to diversion.

[Infusion.7149]

The easy fix is no dodge while immobilized on mirage cloak. It's been applied to vindicator dodge, so no reason it cannot apply to mirage cloak?

Continuum Split is countered partially by killing the rift ; it doesn't last very long in PVP. In addition , chronophantasm is split for PVP and WVW , has reduced damage (-50%), and has 1.5s delay (stunned phantasms) which greatly blunts the burst.

[Curunen.8729]

Throwing in 2penny, for whatever it's worth.

But you know the next patch will likely be bare minimum again. Probably waste a line reverting the Chaos Vortex change,

If they don't have the time/resources to dedicate I'd prefer to be fully aware than spare any thought for it.

[Loic.9657]

I don't think there is anything to consider, and there is no need to worry about being too OP if they directly return the second dodge.
They already nerf Mirage into trash in many other places, and the spec have designed with unique dodge mechanics isn't very good at directly nerfing this dodge feature. (look at the guy has 3 dodges, tons of stealth, tons of teleports is laughing)

Again, I wish Mirage's professional skills had their own version, a professional skill that matched Mirage's nature.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Loic.9657

[AshkyLicious.4729]

10 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Has it occured to you that maybe many of the problems that plague mesmer across the specs are down to nerfs due to individual specs abusing them? Take the vigor traits, all nerfed BECAUSE OF MIRAGE, if you give a 2nd dodge back to mirage you can bet those will never, ever get touched so the rest of the class suffers.
Take phantasm skills, absolutely garbage now, long cast, kinda weak, why? Because Chrono can get each one 4 times using continuum split and chronophantasma. It used to be 8 with old Signet of Ether, yet another skill nerfed due to chrono.
Now I'm going to spell it out for the echo chamber because you all can't see past your noses, if you want mesmer as a class to be good you have to acknowledge the broken stuff on mesmer and how 80% of the class has to be hot garbage in order for that stuff to stay. Continuum split has been the source of so many nerfs and holding back things getting buffed it's honestly not even funny anymore, think about it. You make something good on core, mirage and Vituoso, chrono can do it twice in a row and suddenly it's too strong.
To answer your question about mirage cloak, you can dodge while doing ANY action and it won't interrupt the action. That means you can dodge a daze/stun while channeling or rezzing in addition to being able to dodge while stunned or dazed or immobilised. If you can't see how strong that is you are every bit the problem as the streamers and others wanting to keep mesmer bad.

By the way I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth or contort what I say. I did not say mirage or chrono were OP, I specifically said certain aspects of them were too good, and they are, which is also why the rest of the class suffers. Just like Virtuoso is not OP because it basically does nothing but it's block and invuln uptime is way too high, in large part due to the addition of distortion as a shatter while the rest of the shatters are an aweful mess to use. Don't even get me started on what they did to diversion.

And at the same time we have other classes that is way more abusive than mesmer ever was, like thief, guardian etc.? I hope you are on their forums complaining about them being "too good in certain aspects" aswell! That's the only fair thing to do from your side!

And for the part that eSpecs does stuff better than core, well... that's a fact for every core profession and their respective eSpecs in this game! Anet designed eSpecs to be better than core (mainly bc of their expansions needs to sell, and eSpecs is one of the big features for every expansion). That's nothing unique to Mesmer and its eSpecs!

So why is it so justified that only Mesmers recieves the shortend of the stick every single time when it comes to gutting and nerfing? While we have other eSpecs for other classes being ultra abusive in every single way without getting any kind of nerfs that guts their classes to oblivion...

If Anet wants to treat Mesmers this way, then the only right thing is to give the exact same treatment to all the other classes. That way the other players gets to live with their gutted profession and eSpecs, just as we Mesmes have to do with our class for years now! Atleast that would've been fair to everybody!

Edited December 29, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[godfat.2604]

If Anet has good ideas about how to rework Mirage Clock and/or Continuum Split, and they’re open to changes and ask us feedback before applying it, I am open to any kind of rework. Firebrand rework is an example.

Please instead of saying removing something, say reworking something. It might be obvious that if we take something away, we should be giving something back to compensate, but this is probably not something in Anet’s mind and be careful what we wish for, they can remove something and be done with it like how we lost 1 dodge on Mirage. Remember how we lost Illusionary Persona on Chrono? It’s given back. Remember how we lost Distortion on Chrono? It’s given back. The list went on and on…

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

If Anet has good ideas about how to rework Mirage Clock and/or Continuum Split, and they’re open to changes and ask us feedback before applying it, I am open to any kind of rework. Firebrand rework is an example.

Please instead of saying removing something, say reworking something. It might be obvious that if we take something away, we should be giving something back to compensate, but this is probably not something in Anet’s mind and be careful what we wish for, they can remove something and be done with it like how we lost 1 dodge on Mirage. Remember how we lost Illusionary Persona on Chrono? It’s given back. Remember how we lost Distortion on Chrono? It’s given back. The list went on and on…

I think the mirage cloak issue is more frustration with Arenanet publicly communicating they want to rework it and give back the second dodge, yet no action or open discussion.

There has been no mention on continuum split after distortion was restored.

Also, the Firebrand rework was actually a buff for players not camping a tome, if you want one skill (i.e. reflect or stability and aegis) you don't waste all the pages. Most of the true complaints are UI or page cooldown related especially now that the entirety of Tome of Justice costs a single page per skill in PvE.

[Varis.5467]

7 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Has it occured to you that maybe many of the problems that plague mesmer across the specs are down to nerfs due to individual specs abusing them? Take the vigor traits, all nerfed BECAUSE OF MIRAGE, if you give a 2nd dodge back to mirage you can bet those will never, ever get touched so the rest of the class suffers.
Take phantasm skills, absolutely garbage now, long cast, kinda weak, why? Because Chrono can get each one 4 times using continuum split and chronophantasma. It used to be 8 with old Signet of Ether, yet another skill nerfed due to chrono.
Now I'm going to spell it out for the echo chamber because you all can't see past your noses, if you want mesmer as a class to be good you have to acknowledge the broken stuff on mesmer and how 80% of the class has to be hot garbage in order for that stuff to stay. Continuum split has been the source of so many nerfs and holding back things getting buffed it's honestly not even funny anymore, think about it. You make something good on core, mirage and Vituoso, chrono can do it twice in a row and suddenly it's too strong.
To answer your question about mirage cloak, you can dodge while doing ANY action and it won't interrupt the action. That means you can dodge a daze/stun while channeling or rezzing in addition to being able to dodge while stunned or dazed or immobilised. If you can't see how strong that is you are every bit the problem as the streamers and others wanting to keep mesmer bad.

By the way I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth or contort what I say. I did not say mirage or chrono were OP, I specifically said certain aspects of them were too good, and they are, which is also why the rest of the class suffers. Just like Virtuoso is not OP because it basically does nothing but it's block and invuln uptime is way too high, in large part due to the addition of distortion as a shatter while the rest of the shatters are an aweful mess to use. Don't even get me started on what they did to diversion.

Except said hot garbage combined with the so called 'broken stuff' is still hardly competitive against other classes. 

 

Not to put words in your mouth but to quote your very own words, just look pass your nose, fact check the hard data and statistics of what is achievable on mesmer how these 'broken stuff' (with hot garbage combined) pale before every other classes and their lesser LI builds. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Varis.5467

[godfat.2604]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I think the mirage cloak issue is more frustration with Arenanet publicly communicating they want to rework it and give back the second dodge, yet no action or open discussion.

If I remembered correctly, they mentioned that they want to think of a way to give 2nd dodge back, which can be tweaking other skills/traits, but not really by reworking Mirage Cloak itself. I might be wrong though, of course.

On a side note, I recalled someone mentioned that Anet also once mentioned that given Mirage Cloak can be casted instantly and at any moment, given how it’s implemented in the current engine, they can’t put more restriction on it. Vindicator’s dodge is different that we can’t jump (dodge) while channeling something else. That’s several years ago so it might be different now though.

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Also, the Firebrand rework was actually a buff for players not camping a tome

It’s a giant nerf to my PvE Celestial and Seraph Firebrand. Not saying that I think it’s a bad rework at all though. I think it’s a needed change. We can go on more but I’ll stop here because this is not a guardian forum. Rework is definitely something some would like and some would hate after all.

[Varis.5467]

4 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

On a side note, I recalled someone mentioned that Anet also once mentioned that given Mirage Cloak can be casted instantly and at any moment, given how it’s implemented in the current engine, they can’t put more restriction on it. Vindicator’s dodge is different that we can’t jump (dodge) while channeling something else. That’s several years ago so it might be different now though.

I wholeheartedly hope the limitation of the engine is not the reason gatekeeping the 2nd dodge / rework of MC. Because if that's true it would mean Anet is putting even less effort into fixing this class. 

[apharma.3741]

5 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

If Anet has good ideas about how to rework Mirage Clock and/or Continuum Split, and they’re open to changes and ask us feedback before applying it, I am open to any kind of rework. Firebrand rework is an example.

Please instead of saying removing something, say reworking something. It might be obvious that if we take something away, we should be giving something back to compensate, but this is probably not something in Anet’s mind and be careful what we wish for, they can remove something and be done with it like how we lost 1 dodge on Mirage. Remember how we lost Illusionary Persona on Chrono? It’s given back. Remember how we lost Distortion on Chrono? It’s given back. The list went on and on…

Funny you mention IP, we lost IP on Virtuoso but no-one seems to be making a fuss out of it. As for recommending buffs or changes, they often fall on deaf ears, the only dev that ever really listened was Robert Gee (he even got his own appreciation thread) and that's when mesmer was, after bunker nerfs, the most balanced it's been within the meta. It's also not really my job to fix the mess and mark my words it's a complete mess after all the gutting and changes needed due to Chrono and Mirage.
The main issue is that most specs lack a proper vision and execution of whatever vision it has. Take Chrono, it has a shield, thematically it's about speeding up and slowing things down and has wells that are AoE and affect allies and enemies, it should be the ideal team fighter/support. What it actually ends up being is either a duellist or often meme one shot damage dealer where the wells are largely ignored in PvP/WvW because they're just plain bad. Some ideas for things I would change for Chrono:

Remove distortion. - guys don't panic here, wait for it.
Continnum Split: Becomes defiant stance like skill for 1 +1s per clone, after expiration applies protection and resolution for the same duration as the shatter. 50s CD to start with, needs tweaks.
Signet of Illusions: Gains Signet of Ether active ability, improved version applies this to all illusion skills.
Signet of Ether: Active: summons the maximum number of clones you can have, blades for virtuoso. Same improved version.
Improved alacrity: Remove trait, fold the alacrity strength increase into flow of time and remove the duration decrease. Replace with a well trait that summons an illusion on expiration of the well or applies 2-3s protection and resolutions on well cast.
Wells: now do the same thing on each pulse.
All's well that ends well: Buff the healing a little or add remove 1-2 condition(s) on cast /1 per pulse.
Well of Senility: 3 pulses, removes 1 boon per pulse, still pulses chill, 0.7 scaling per pulse.
Well of Calamity: 3 pulses, damage is distributed over each pulse 1.3 scaling, possibly buff to 1.5, applies 1s weakness and cripple.
Well of Action: 3 pulses, applies slow and quickness again, 0.4 scaling, not really for damage.
Well of Precognition: Applies 1s stab per pulse in addition to it's previous effects.
Illusionary Reversion: Phantasm skills produce a clone on cast. PvE warlock will produce 1 on cast and 2 normally for a total of 3. Shield can produce 4 in total as it has 2 casts.
 

The intention is to reduce the number of reset skills and traits in favour of chrono having an easier time maintaining alacrity for a global and more reliable reduction in cool downs. There's also a full line of well traits to bolster a defensive or support build with a defiant stance skill to keep chrono in the fight with protection and resolution to reduce damage taken in general.

This is not an exhaustive list of all changes nor is it a final list of things, it's an idea on how to weed out unfun mechanics in favour of reliable, stronger and synergistic skills/traits. There also needs to be better clone production on chrono and some damage increases in traits too but too much change too quick is hard for people to adjust to. Mirage needs changes which I detailed in another thread, Virtuoso needs the shatters to work without facing a target, dagger needs reworking entirely as 2 skills need to be close to an enemy to be useful but the auto is ranged, slow, weak and barely cleaves iirc.

Either way one of the things that needs to happen to mesmer is a massive reduction in reset skills to then allow for buffs to utilities and traits in general as there's no longer a worry about double casting so skills can be buffed again.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Funny you mention IP, we lost IP on Virtuoso but no-one seems to be making a fuss out of it. As for recommending buffs or changes, they often fall on deaf ears, the only dev that ever really listened was Robert Gee (he even got his own appreciation thread) and that's when mesmer was, after bunker nerfs, the most balanced it's been within the meta. It's also not really my job to fix the mess and mark my words it's a complete mess after all the gutting and changes needed due to Chrono and Mirage.
The main issue is that most specs lack a proper vision and execution of whatever vision it has. Take Chrono, it has a shield, thematically it's about speeding up and slowing things down and has wells that are AoE and affect allies and enemies, it should be the ideal team fighter/support. What it actually ends up being is either a duellist or often meme one shot damage dealer where the wells are largely ignored in PvP/WvW because they're just plain bad. Some ideas for things I would change for Chrono:

Remove distortion. - guys don't panic here, wait for it.
Continnum Split: Becomes defiant stance like skill for 1 +1s per clone, after expiration applies protection and resolution for the same duration as the shatter. 50s CD to start with, needs tweaks.
Signet of Illusions: Gains Signet of Ether active ability, improved version applies this to all illusion skills.
Signet of Ether: Active: summons the maximum number of clones you can have, blades for virtuoso. Same improved version.
Improved alacrity: Remove trait, fold the alacrity strength increase into flow of time and remove the duration decrease. Replace with a well trait that summons an illusion on expiration of the well or applies 2-3s protection and resolutions on well cast.
Wells: now do the same thing on each pulse.
All's well that ends well: Buff the healing a little or add remove 1-2 condition(s) on cast /1 per pulse.
Well of Senility: 3 pulses, removes 1 boon per pulse, still pulses chill, 0.7 scaling per pulse.
Well of Calamity: 3 pulses, damage is distributed over each pulse 1.3 scaling, possibly buff to 1.5, applies 1s weakness and cripple.
Well of Action: 3 pulses, applies slow and quickness again, 0.4 scaling, not really for damage.
Well of Precognition: Applies 1s stab per pulse in addition to it's previous effects.
Illusionary Reversion: Phantasm skills produce a clone on cast. PvE warlock will produce 1 on cast and 2 normally for a total of 3. Shield can produce 4 in total as it has 2 casts.
 

The intention is to reduce the number of reset skills and traits in favour of chrono having an easier time maintaining alacrity for a global and more reliable reduction in cool downs. There's also a full line of well traits to bolster a defensive or support build with a defiant stance skill to keep chrono in the fight with protection and resolution to reduce damage taken in general.

This is not an exhaustive list of all changes nor is it a final list of things, it's an idea on how to weed out unfun mechanics in favour of reliable, stronger and synergistic skills/traits. There also needs to be better clone production on chrono and some damage increases in traits too but too much change too quick is hard for people to adjust to. Mirage needs changes which I detailed in another thread, Virtuoso needs the shatters to work without facing a target, dagger needs reworking entirely as 2 skills need to be close to an enemy to be useful but the auto is ranged, slow, weak and barely cleaves iirc.

Either way one of the things that needs to happen to mesmer is a massive reduction in reset skills to then allow for buffs to utilities and traits in general as there's no longer a worry about double casting so skills can be buffed again.

Excuse me? "Too much change too quick is hard for people to adjust to"... and why should we care about other people's adjustment to our trade-offs getting reverted? Did we get any time to even think, discuss or to adjust to the thoughts of the nerfs Anet just throwed our way? No we didn't, and it's been years now and we're still totally gutted in every sense. And nobody of those players and streamers didnt even care about the fact that our gaming experience got so much worse because of them. So why should we give others a chance to adjust?

Edited December 29, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[katte nici.9483]

Continuum Split is very good but people usually forget that it comes with drawbacks. The biggest one of course being forcefully teleported back into possible damage. The second one that is almost always overlooked is the fact that CS effectively increases the cool down of all skills that are currently recharging. Having to wait for an additional 1-3 seconds for a crucial skill to be available again can decide a fight.

[apharma.3741]

50 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Excuse me? "Too much change too quick is hard for people to adjust to"... and why should we care about other people's adjustment to our trade-offs getting reverted? Did we get any time to even think, discuss or to adjust to the thoughts of the nerfs Anet just throwed our way? No we didn't, and it's been years now and we're still totally gutted in every sense. And nobody of those players and streamers didnt even care about the fact that our gaming experience got so much worse because of them. So why should we give others a chance to adjust?

Who said I was talking just about other players? It often takes weeks if not months for people to really piece together and get used to new builds especially if there's been major changes that affect the mechanics. Then you need to fine tune it with buffs or nerfs, if the mechanics themselves are the right thing to do, this all takes time.

Looks like this thread and forum is turning into the echo chamber that the ele forum became though, some of the most vocal people in this thread I don't even remember seeing 2 years ago when most of us lost hope in the balance team. Instead you all seem to be letting your emotions get the better of you instead of really listening to the experienced players.

 

Jazz pretty much says the same "nerf/ rework the correct stuff instead so giving the dodge back doesnt become a big buff" this is because we know how awful slapping distortion on a spec buffing something can end up on mesmer if not done right. Unfortunately that does mean nerfing/reworking the abusive aspects of the class, in particular full reset skills are major balance red flags.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Who said I was talking just about other players? It often takes weeks if not months for people to really piece together and get used to new builds especially if there's been major changes that affect the mechanics. Then you need to fine tune it with buffs or nerfs, if the mechanics themselves are the right thing to do, this all takes time.

Looks like this thread and forum is turning into the echo chamber that the ele forum became though, some of the most vocal people in this thread I don't even remember seeing 2 years ago when most of us lost hope in the balance team. Instead you all seem to be letting your emotions get the better of you instead of really listening to the experienced players.

 

Jazz pretty much says the same "nerf/ rework the correct stuff instead so giving the dodge back doesnt become a big buff" this is because we know how awful slapping distortion on a spec buffing something can end up on mesmer if not done right. Unfortunately that does mean nerfing/reworking the abusive aspects of the class, in particular full reset skills are major balance red flags.

I honestly think it'll be easy for us Mesmer mainers to adjust to buffs and our trade-offs being reverted! Yeah we have to rebuild our builds, but it'll be so much more fun to actually explore the new builds if they are good and viable from the beginning! I think both you and I know that the biggest issue will be the adjustement of the other players to our buffs, rather than us being an issue. The only time I see us needing adjustement is if Anet actually nerfs us even more than they've already done!

You're not the one to decide who's an experienced player and not! I've personally mained mesmer since beta and been through both the highs and lows that came with this class, and I for one have enough experience to be able to voice my take on this class. 

Im not against aknowledging and balancing abusive mechanics within a profession and it's eSpecs, if it's handled in a fair and unbiased way. But this hasn't been the case with Anet at all, since we have plenty of professions that still have broken mechanics til this day.

Edited December 29, 2022 by AshkyLicious.4729

[apharma.3741]

39 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I honestly think it'll be easy for us Mesmer mainers to adjust to buffs and our trade-offs being reverted! Yeah we have to rebuild our builds, but it'll be so much more fun to actually explore the new builds if they are good and viable from the beginning! I think both you and I know that the biggest issue will be the adjustement of the other players to our buffs, rather than us being an issue. The only time I see us needing adjustement is if Anet actually nerfs us even more than they've already done!

You're not the one to decide who's an experienced player and not! I've personally mained mesmer since beta and been through both the highs and lows that came with this class, and I for one have enough experience to be able to voice my take on this class. 

Im not against aknowledging and balancing abusive mechanics within a profession and it's eSpecs, if it's handled in a fair and unbiased way. But this hasn't been the case with Anet at all, since we have plenty of professions that still have broken mechanics til this day.

Whataboutism is not an excuse for poor reasoning, especially when everyone has a grudge against your class.
I base my opinion on what I have seen and that is that if you guys have been playing mesmer since beta you have never been very good at it. I have also seen players far better than me dumpster others in WvW on chrono, mirage and other builds. Does that mean all is fine? No but I'm not about to let my lack of skill colour my assessment of a class and say it needs buffs that will only end up with massive nerfs.

Last time the hate crew went after mesmer we lost our interrupt builds and almost lost Power Block. A whole playstyle gone due to a lack of critical assessment that our CC potential had tripled since those traits were created. If you really have been playing mesmer since beta you and others here would know what happens when buffs are handed out and abusive mechanics are not touched, the last 2 or 3 years is what.