Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[apharma.3741]

15 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

EDIT: The hilarious part is the response above mine suggesting that mirage should not get second dodge because "low skill bot class". If people are dying to bots then it isn't the dodge that's killing them.

When I say low skill bot class I and many others don't literally mean it's used by a bot and people die to literal bots all the time (though it does happen) we mean that the class lends itself to a very high reward and very low risk to spamming skills off cool down with no thought to what the enemy is doing. In the past we have seen
Turret Engineer
Cele ele (trait rework) - afaik not botted but you just learnt a rotation and won, literally 5 ele ESL teams.
Chrono Bunker
Condi Scourge
CI Mirage
Phantasm Chrono (phantasm rework)
Mechanist

Probably a few more but those are the ones that really stand out. I don't think anyone wants their class to be very low skill floor for very high reward, do you agree?

Edited December 31, 2022 by apharma.3741
Forgot Mechanist

[Infusion.7149]

11 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

When I say low skill bot class I and many others don't literally mean it's used by a bot and people die to literal bots all the time (though it does happen) we mean that the class lends itself to a very high reward and very low risk to spamming skills off cool down with no thought to what the enemy is doing. In the past we have seen
Turret Engineer
Cele ele (trait rework) - afaik not botted but you just learnt a rotation and won, literally 5 ele ESL teams.
Chrono Bunker
Condi Scourge
CI Mirage
Phantasm Chrono (phantasm rework)
Mechanist

Probably a few more but those are the ones that really stand out. I don't think anyone wants their class to be very low skill floor for very high reward, do you agree?

Unless you time your ambushes right the condis are cleansed plus confusion does near negligible damage otherwise (this isn't an opinion it's a fact). The mirage bots were relying on the CC for the execution of burst AFAIK.

It even says so on hardstuck:

Quote

Most of your damage comes from Confusion under the form of a burst

Matchups
As this build is based on Confusion bursts, you can win any matchup by catching your opponent off guard.

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/side-mirage/
 

Quote

Knowing important skills to interrupt like a heal or elite can easily secure a kill and win a teamfight, so knowing the animations of important abilities like Lich Form or Glyph of Renewal is vital.

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/interrupt-mirage/
In essence they are saying you need to interrupt key skills and not just anything. They also aren't using chaotic Interruption if that is what you meant by CI mirage.

What sort of build are you referring to that is low skill? Minion necros for example or scourges that litter a point with all the AoEs are worse. Turret engineer is more of a PVE bot class but it hasn't been relevant in PVP since core days , one of my guild leaders reached number one on the ladder with it before it was nerfed.
 

[apharma.3741]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Unless you time your ambushes right the condis are cleansed plus confusion does near negligible damage otherwise (this isn't an opinion it's a fact). The mirage bots were relying on the CC for the execution of burst AFAIK.

It even says so on hardstuck:

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/side-mirage/
 

https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/mesmer/interrupt-mirage/
In essence they are saying you need to interrupt key skills and not just anything. They also aren't using chaotic Interruption if that is what you meant by CI mirage.

What sort of build are you referring to that is low skill? Minion necros for example or scourges that litter a point with all the AoEs are worse. Turret engineer is more of a PVE bot class but it hasn't been relevant in PVP since core days , one of my guild leaders reached number one on the ladder with it before it was nerfed.
 

I was referring to the past (I literally put "In the past we have seen" before the list) before the CI nerf, when mirage was considered a no skill bot class. The whole thread is me saying I don't want restoring a 2nd dodge to turn into that again especially if the class as a whole needs buffs. Hardstuck.gg didn't exist when CI Mirage was at it's worst, July 2019.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

I thought I was clear when I said "very high reward and very low risk to spamming skills off cool down with no thought to what the enemy is doing."
Does minionmancer scourge fall into that category? In the past yes, which is why I also said there's probably a few more, indicating it is not an exhaustive list and yes I have been critical of minionmancer in the past too.
So can you answer a simple question, do you agree that you don't want mesmer to end up as a "no skill bot class" like with old CI Mirage?

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I was referring to the past (I literally put "In the past we have seen" before the list) before the CI nerf, when mirage was considered a no skill bot class. The whole thread is me saying I don't want restoring a 2nd dodge to turn into that again especially if the class as a whole needs buffs. Hardstuck.gg didn't exist when CI Mirage was at it's worst, July 2019.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

I thought I was clear when I said "very high reward and very low risk to spamming skills off cool down with no thought to what the enemy is doing."
Does minionmancer scourge fall into that category? In the past yes, which is why I also said there's probably a few more, indicating it is not an exhaustive list and yes I have been critical of minionmancer in the past too.
So can you answer a simple question, do you agree that you don't want mesmer to end up as a "no skill bot class" like with old CI Mirage?

TBH it was never a no skill bot class any more than the rest. Pretty much every spec has overperformed at some point and gets damage, cooldown, etc kind of retunes untill its inline.

I remember people saying the play style I show in the last one dodge video I did to be the kind of bot play you describe, however, that is NOT the case. Rather, if you are timing a short duration condi burst and covering it with interupts that IS what I would define as skillfull. The only real valid point those people had was with cooldowns and Mirage's ability to chain together invuln, block, evade, range from opponent while attacking your opponent and capping, etc which again was skillfull to have to consider so many cooldowns and actions at once and chain it all fluidly. However, that said, some times the cooldowns let the Mirage ALWAYS have way to avoid damage in some cases which is why many things got nerfed way before 1 dodge.

 

That was not bot play. As far as I know the only people I recall being complained about in pvp specifically (not wvw) was staff Mirages before the alac changes becoming bunkered and just sit on caps, and other stilly, not very effective things that made a show in the lowest tiers. That stuff doesnt work in plat or even gold very well. It never did. So even then it was really just an annoyance to low tier.

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I was referring to the past (I literally put "In the past we have seen" before the list) before the CI nerf, when mirage was considered a no skill bot class. The whole thread is me saying I don't want restoring a 2nd dodge to turn into that again especially if the class as a whole needs buffs. Hardstuck.gg didn't exist when CI Mirage was at it's worst, July 2019.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaotic_Interruption

I thought I was clear when I said "very high reward and very low risk to spamming skills off cool down with no thought to what the enemy is doing."
Does minionmancer scourge fall into that category? In the past yes, which is why I also said there's probably a few more, indicating it is not an exhaustive list and yes I have been critical of minionmancer in the past too.
So can you answer a simple question, do you agree that you don't want mesmer to end up as a "no skill bot class" like with old CI Mirage?

that CI is longgone now so that argument sounds like a bias excuse to continue to hold your present argument. In other words, its very weak.

[Veprovina.4876]

Had a weird couple of days, new years and such too, so Happy New year everyone!

 

But since my last post, the thread has gone too far for me to respond to each one individually.

So i'll just say this:

 

This constant arguing about more tradeoffs, nerfs and other such things is just people being conditioned to believe we don't deserve anything good. This has to stop. We deserve to have fun on our class as much as anyone else.

And after countless arguments on the forum, it has been proven by multiple people that Mesmers, especially Mirage, is a broken mess, and personally - i'm convinced nothing's going to happen if they return the dodge. Mirage won't suddenly become OP, they'd have to buff us for months for Mirage to come even close to that, so no - there's no need for tradeoffs, we deserve to have fun, and not be the only janky class with split functionality between modes.

 

If 50 people can fail to kill one thief in a keep, and that thief can then teleport people inside under stealth - mechanist autoattacking for 30k damage - Guardian "rework" essentially amounting to another buff - i reject any and all tradeoffs for that dodge.

 

Just return the dodge.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

So... This needs to get up again 😉☝🆙️

Edited January 7, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Moradorin.6217]

🙄😗🤗🤔🙃👍

[Moradorin.6217]

🙃

[katte nici.9483]

UP!

[AshkyLicious.4729]

☝️🆙

[Loic.9657]

lunar new year still one dodge 😪

still shows wrong stats at F1 skill in tooltip in PVP if u use bountiful disillusioned. (still bug)

still trash design of mirage trait, utility skills and it's professional skills

still trash design of virtuoso's dagger skill, F3 (stupid casting time) and F5 (trash damage) skill, utility skills and elite skill

still need to face your target to cast bladesong

still they don't admit that they've screwed up mirage but only realize vindicator's one dodge

still disgusting

Edited January 11, 2023 by Loic.9657

[Veprovina.4876]

7 hours ago, Loic.9657 said:

still they don't admit that they've screwed up mirage but only realize vindicator's one dodge

Still, after all they removed, destroyed and made unplayable, we have to be considered for tradeoffs if we want the dodge back...

Because "devs want to find a way to bring the dodge back"...

 

Just give us what you took away without tradeoffs, there were tons of tradeoffs already, in traits, damage, even mirage cloak itlsef, piled one upon another without consideration on how they interact, and we STILL need a tradeoff to get the dodge back?

 

No. Enough, i don't accept that.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

@Cal Cohen.2358

We Mirage mainers really deserve an detailed explanation on why Mirage has been treated so badly during all these years with nerfs and tradeoffs, and how you devs gonna sort this out and fix this class and make it viable and enjoyable to play. 

Out of all the classes in gw2, Mirage is the one class that should be priority 1 now since you decided to gut this spec very unfairly. Let me remind you devs that Mirage isnt a free to play core class that you can just shrug too. Its an eSpec that we have to pay for in order to play it, so why on earth is it ok to destroy this eSpec for paying customers the way you've done?

Edited January 11, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Mungo Zen.9364]

19 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

snip

Isn’t naming and shaming against forum policy?  😛 

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Isn’t naming and shaming against forum policy?  😛 

Lol, don't, i have a feeling they're looking for an excuse to lock the thread. 😛

@AshkyLicious.4729 just tagged @Cal Cohen.2358 to point out an injustice, nothing more. 😉

[AshkyLicious.4729]

9 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Isn’t naming and shaming against forum policy?  😛 

Well I'll tag people just to remind of an important ongoing issue, since the devs are pros at ignoring things in this game 😉

And more of us need to tag them, for a larger impact! Me alone isnt enough!

Edited January 11, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 12/27/2022 at 7:19 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I agree. The current state of profession updates and balance is atrocious and I’d like to see the root of the problem, Anets profession developers and testers, be improved upon. 
 

Until the people making these changes are given the tools and guidance to do their job well, we will continue to get really poor updates from them. 

there are no testers

 

[Veprovina.4876]

16 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

there are no testers

 

We are the testers. Except - they forgot the part where they listen to feedback and improve what's not ok.

[appelflap.8310]

Let's get this up again, I actually want to play this game again...

[Veprovina.4876]

When is the next balance patch supposed to be anyway?

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

When is the next balance patch supposed to be anyway?

Yeah no idea. Im pretty sure they just trolled and ignored Mesmer and Mirage when they mentioned the 2nd dodge and gave Vind a 2nd dodge. I think it was all just intentional cause they no joke IMO have some personal issues with Mirage and/or players who like Mirage. Im pretty convinced.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Veprovina.4876]

33 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Yeah no idea. Im pretty sure they just trolled and ignored Mesmer and Mirage when they mentioned the 2nd dodge and gave Vind a 2nd dodge. I think it was all just intentional cause they no joke IMO have some personal issues with Mirage and/or players who like Mirage. Im pretty convinced.

Well that's no secret, there's a whole thread about this here somewhere with leaks from discord chat and the like...

They DO hate mesmers, but we're kinda trying to end the cycle now, it's enough.

If they're really that biased against us, then i guess i'm nearing my end with this game.

 

Only time will tell, and i hope i'm not forced to quit.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

2 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

When is the next balance patch supposed to be anyway?

Last one was Nov 29th that had significant Profession updates.  The previous 2 updates like this were about 6-8 weeks apart.  Add 4 weeks for holiday time off, means I would anticipate the earliest we get the next patch is mid to late February.

I anticipate they are going to put together a big reveal/roadmap type thing in the next few weeks to showcase what they want to do in the next 6-12 months.  The question I am interested in is, will there be new content in the form of Living World or similar announced, or will they announce they are working on the expansion instead (or both?)  If there is no new content to play I probably care less about them fixing up the professions.

That said, this is all a guess, Anet could go radio silent for 3 more months and it would only impact gamers who aren't happy with the current state of the game and are waiting for change.

[Moradorin.6217]

25 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well that's no secret, there's a whole thread about this here somewhere with leaks from discord chat and the like...

They DO hate mesmers, but we're kinda trying to end the cycle now, it's enough.

If they're really that biased against us, then i guess i'm nearing my end with this game.

 

Only time will tell, and i hope i'm not forced to quit.

I guess Im stuborn. I stay in no small part to just keep reminding everyone in game, disc, forums, etc about Mirage and its one dodge and all the bias. Although, if they gave Mirage its dodge back I would have a new reason to play that is more positive and I would have  hard time not playing more and being complimentary of the game as for most of my play time I was a happy, helpful fanboy type player with ~14k hrs on main acct. At present the main reason I stay is Im too stuborn to EVER let it go. *smirk*