Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Veprovina.4876]

28 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

it would only impact gamers who aren't happy with the current state of the game and are waiting for change.

Yeah, that's kind of what i'm afraid of, we're like, 10 people in this thread, and the rest of Mesmers aren't really main on the class, or are playing Virtuoso or whatever in PvE, and in the mesmer group - how many people do WvW and not only PvE, and in those - how many want to play Mirage?

 

Cause i'm afraid they'll pull an "Adobe" and tell us we're not worth their time because there's so little of us, so no benefit.

While completely ignoring the state of entire mesmer and how bad it is compared to other professions.

Or - they'll just use some arbitrary golem numbers as always and "prove" it works fine...

 

More people need to be aware of this.

Maybe if we do one megathread of the history of all mesmer nerfs and bugs, idk...

 

5 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I guess Im stuborn. I stay in no small part to just keep reminding everyone in game, disc, forums, etc about Mirage and its one dodge and all the bias. Although, if they gave Mirage its dodge back I would have a new reason to play that is more positive and I would have  hard time not playing more and being complimentary of the game as for most of my play time I was a happy, helpful fanboy type player with ~14k hrs on main acct. At present the main reason I stay is Im too stuborn to EVER let it go. *smirk*

Roaming on Mirage when it was half decent was one of the most fun things i did in this game. I didn't win every fight, i wasn't overpowered, i was getting absolutely slammed by firebrands (when PoF came out) and rangers. But it felt as if i could improve, i could stand a chance against them, and that it was my skill that's the issue.

 

Now i cry every time i want to roam, the damage on Chrono full DPS gear is so pathetic it's not even funny, and i literally can't do anything with Mirage - nor do i see any. It's only Virtuosos, and those are also just pathetic in WvW.

 

Just last night, i fought a Weaver for few solid minutes, wasting every cooldown, the weaver never got below 90% health - what the hell! FULL DPS GEAR! It would have one shot me if i was playing Mirage cause i got bursted down in seconds at the start, i only managed to survive cause i somehow healed myself a bit, and had a good opportunity to use distortion with 3 clones.

I was attaching the ele with everything i had and he never dropped below 90% HP, how am i overpowered again? I mean really.

 

So at the very least they can give us the dodge back now that even the class built around 1 dodge has 2.

Because, even with that second dodge, i'm not gonna be winning any fights, there's too many nerfs applied to the class already, and to runes and conditions we relied on like Torment for sustain.

 

Now we have absolutely nothing and it's killing my joy of the game.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

4 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Now we have absolutely nothing and it's killing my joy of the game.

Eh take a break like I am, like many Mesmers before us. The combination of the mess Mesmer is in and how Anet has treated the profession and in turn player base, alongside the terrible content releases since IBS, why bother logging in?  
 

We aren’t the target audience, we have already spent money on expansions and gemstore purchases. Fixing our problems won’t generate the revenue that enticing new players will. A new player who sees Mesmer would probably stay away from it unless they are a masochist. But they also have 8 other professions to enjoy and Anet is banking on that to keep making money. 

[Veprovina.4876]

52 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Eh take a break like I am, like many Mesmers before us. The combination of the mess Mesmer is in and how Anet has treated the profession and in turn player base, alongside the terrible content releases since IBS, why bother logging in?  

Well, i kinda am, i'm just doing WvW guild raids when i can, and that's about it.

Chrono "support" is not what it needs to be, but whatever, i don't have any other option right now. At least pulling people is sometimes fun and surprisingly they haven't dubbed gravity well op, so there's that too.

Everything else on chrono is of course useless - null field still isn't unblockable, and they nerfed shield and disenchanter phantasm.

But ooh, we got distortion...

At least the stab mantra is nice now, so there's that. I can give some stab to people if we don't have a FB in the party.

 

55 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

We aren’t the target audience, we have already spent money on expansions and gemstore purchases. Fixing our problems won’t generate the revenue that enticing new players will. A new player who sees Mesmer would probably stay away from it unless they are a masochist. But they also have 8 other professions to enjoy and Anet is banking on that to keep making money. 

I know, but it feels so unfair and bad that i'm not allowed to have fun because personal reasons of devs.

Then just delete mesmer. Bring it to the state where every elite was best - chrono at the beginning before signet nerf, mirage before nerfs to cloak and dodge, buff virtuoso and sort out traits - then delete the mesmer from the class selection screen.

 

That way it's balanced. Mesmers will be "op" (we won't but in the eyes of the devs we will), but since there will never be new mesmers, and only people who already made one will have access to the profession - it will balance itself out, there won't be mesmers running around everywhere being "op" and annying everyone, and they can just forget about us forever if they want. It's also one less espec for them to do.

 

Win-win. I get to enjoy my profession, and they're rid of us forever.

It's sad to see that their hate for us got to this point, and that people can't sort out their personal feelings and views with professional responsiblity. What's even sadder is that those people are considered good employees. Anywhere else, anyone pulled that stuff, they'd be fired on the spot, but no, Anet keeps them around.

 

And before anyone accuses me for wanting them fired like the last fiasco was misconstrued when people were rightly angry - i'm not after their jobs - i'm just asking them to be professional when dealing with us because they're dealing with real people.

[Moradorin.6217]

42 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well, i kinda am, i'm just doing WvW guild raids when i can, and that's about it.

Chrono "support" is not what it needs to be, but whatever, i don't have any other option right now. At least pulling people is sometimes fun and surprisingly they haven't dubbed gravity well op, so there's that too.

Everything else on chrono is of course useless - null field still isn't unblockable, and they nerfed shield and disenchanter phantasm.

But ooh, we got distortion...

At least the stab mantra is nice now, so there's that. I can give some stab to people if we don't have a FB in the party.

 

I know, but it feels so unfair and bad that i'm not allowed to have fun because personal reasons of devs.

Then just delete mesmer. Bring it to the state where every elite was best - chrono at the beginning before signet nerf, mirage before nerfs to cloak and dodge, buff virtuoso and sort out traits - then delete the mesmer from the class selection screen.

 

That way it's balanced. Mesmers will be "op" (we won't but in the eyes of the devs we will), but since there will never be new mesmers, and only people who already made one will have access to the profession - it will balance itself out, there won't be mesmers running around everywhere being "op" and annying everyone, and they can just forget about us forever if they want. It's also one less espec for them to do.

 

Win-win. I get to enjoy my profession, and they're rid of us forever.

It's sad to see that their hate for us got to this point, and that people can't sort out their personal feelings and views with professional responsiblity. What's even sadder is that those people are considered good employees. Anywhere else, anyone pulled that stuff, they'd be fired on the spot, but no, Anet keeps them around.

 

And before anyone accuses me for wanting them fired like the last fiasco was misconstrued when people were rightly angry - i'm not after their jobs - i'm just asking them to be professional when dealing with us because they're dealing with real people.

I usually just run around on herald or scrapper if Im gona wvw these days, but my heart isnt in playing them and I dont feel invested in the toon like I did on my Mesmer so I just dont play as much in general.

 

At one point I was maintaining 7 accounts with expacs and buying gems with both gold and real $$. After the seeing what they did for Mirage (nada) with the EoD release and seeing the expacs features (fishing and turtle) I opted NOT to upgrade my other 6 accounts this time around. I also no longer occationally spend on QoL upgrades for the 3 I was actually playing and building up. I also had a rather active 500 Member guild that due to the same reasons (one dodge, fishing, turtle) I have just kinda stopped trying to recruit, organize events, etc. Does that mean the game is gona die cause Im not happy? Hardly! However, since Im not the only one in this kinda situation/dynamic it means the game has more people saying they are unhappy and less fun things going on for allot more people than just myself and those few who care about one dodge. It just adds to the decline and depreciation of what it otherwise would be. 

 

IMO having people who play ALLOT and run guilds happy and talking about why they love the game. ( I talk to new players and vet alike constantly in game) is allot better than people who can be seen in full legendary, infusions, with way more than avg AP, etc saying how stuff sucks. So IMO its very short sighted of Anet to have ignored this the past 3 years. I think they are beeing very foolish.

[Veprovina.4876]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

However, since Im not the only one in this kinda situation/dynamic it means the game has more people saying they are unhappy and less fun things going on for allot more people than just myself and those few who care about one dodge. It just adds to the decline and depreciation of what it otherwise would be. 

Well, hopefully it gets enough impact for them to start seeing us as people who also just want to have fun.

Though, most people will just change mains and be done with it. But still, i mean, they put the profession in the game, no matter how many people play it - treat it as every other profession - not have a personal vendetta against it.

 

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

IMO having people who play ALLOT and run guilds happy and talking about why they love the game. ( I talk to new players and vet alike constantly in game) is allot better than people who can be seen in full legendary, infusions, with way more than avg AP, etc saying how stuff sucks. So IMO its very short sighted of Anet to have ignored this the past 3 years. I think they are beeing very foolish.

Of course it's better, especially now that they want to get new players in Steam. But they've proven a few times already - especially since EoD that their egos mean more to them than the game by ignoring a LOT of very useful feedback, from class betas to after, then Dragon's End and onwards.

 

Lately, they at least saw that this can't go on - we're not here for them, they're here for US, so the super polite "communication posts" were added to the roster - but without any concrete steps, it's like talking to a wall... They need to do better, otherwise yeah, the game and everyone's experience starts suffering.

 

It's much nicer to have a full game of happy people, even if classes end up being OP, than have sour salty people tell everyone how the game sucks, i don't know why it's so hard to wrap their head around. But you can't just have 2- professions be OP - the ones that the balance team plays - then neglect everyone else, and on top of that, have a strong personal opinion on 1 class. It creates a toxic environment, resentment, and in the end, less gems from unhappy people.

 

And every little bit counts, so, since they're already getting paid to do that job - they should think about everyone, not just neglect one class cause "eh no one cares". Every dollar/euro needs to count.

[Infusion.7149]

I think it is important to dissociate any other nerfs from the dodge nerf. There isn't a need to write a textbook on the other nerfs mesmers have received over the years which may or may not have been justified. Many of those nerfs are because some people think (unreasonably) that clones have no counterplay.

The dodge nerf is the worst form of balancing possible because it splits a core game mechanic that is used defensively. It should have been reverted when vindicator was given two dodges when vindicator was only designed with one dodge in mind. If a spec that was designed around one dodge could be given two dodges I am pretty sure the same level of care could be given to mirage, especially when people that play multiple modes have to deal with the difference in dodge count between modes.

That's compounded by the fact that the balance team was stated to have been looking at giving back the second dodge but seemingly forgetting about it, refusing to release for public comment, or simply not allowing public testing of their inhouse ideas.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Veprovina.4876]

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I think it is important to dissociate any other nerfs from the dodge nerf.

Yeah, you got a point. They're definitely not the same thing. Let's first get the dodge back, which is something only we lack now. Then we can focus on further improvements, both to playability through traits, skills, and through fixing bugs.

 

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If a spec that was designed around one dodge could be given two dodges I am pretty sure the same level of care could be given to mirage, especially when people that play multiple modes have to deal with the difference in dodge count between modes.

100% agree - if Vindicator felt janky to play with one dodge and it was specifically built to have one - there is literally no excuse for Mirage not to get 2 back as well - WITHOUT any "compensations and tradeoffs".

 

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's compounded by the fact that the balance team was stated to have been looking at giving back the second dodge but seemingly forgetting about it, refusing to release for public comment, or simply not allowing public testing of their inhouse ideas.

The worst part is the line "we want to find a way to give mirage the dodge back".

Why the drama? It's easy - just give the dodge back - no need to touch anything else for the moment.

Tyria is not gonna end, and nothing will be OP.

 

Just enough with this mentality that, in order for mesmer to gain 1 thing (which in this instance never should have been taken away in the first place at all), it has to lose 2 things... That's a botomless pit, and we're already feeling the extensive damage from those piled on nerfs.

 

Give the dodge back without the drama and this mentality people have for mesmers.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Infusion.7149]

I'm not going to quote your long post but most of the things that could make mirage cloak so called OP have already been addressed or outright prevented. That is partly why it bothers me it hasn't been reverted to two dodges.
Clone ambushes have had been prenerfed and some nerfed even after one dodge, Infinite Horizon making clones use ambush is essentially nerfed from that fact. Clones' inherent counterplay has always been AoEs or simply being cleaved out and any projectile or melee clones can be reflected or kited since unlike chrono clones they don't have superspeed.

If necessary the clone ambushes could be made CC-able or delayed 0.75 to 1s in PVP/WVW and not while evading. (The commonly referenced "you are invuln but still doing DPS".) Given that the ambushes are largely condi if it is deemed the power damage is a problem that could simply be reduced in competitive modes (Greatsword ambush isn't split in PVP/WVW and neither is sword) as conditions inherently have counterplay through cleansing. That doesn't even count the fact that scepter and staff are mostly projectile and that power builds' clones do essentially no damage.

Jaunt isn't a stunbreak so you'd need to run blink for a stunbreak that moves ; both of these skills mainly counter any pulsing AoEs and not any near-instant single hit damage.

If mirage mirrors (from utility skills) counting as "free dodges" are the issue they can be made target-able with CC (see the mechanist mech) much like continuum split. Seeing how they give away your position it is debatable whether those mirage mirrors even count as usable in most situations unless you are fighting in place. In WVW for example it is essentially meaningless in a moving engagement as opposed to a stalemate or an in-structure fight because you aren't going to be backtracking all the way to pick up a mirage mirror.

There are so many solutions that are already pre-existing and if Arenanet would just take the time to engage in a meaningful conversation with the community I am sure this kind of balancing could be resolved.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Infusion.7149

[Veprovina.4876]

5 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There are so many solutions that are already pre-existing

Agree on every point! Wonderfully put!

Every part that is constantly shouted "op" by community and devs, already has built in counterplays and tradeoffs.

Yet, on top of not having a dodge, we're still being regarded as needing to be brought down further.

Where does it stop?

 

Some other professions literally don't have a counterplay (thief permastealth), yet every ours has, and then some, but it's still not enough?

 

Devs need to engage more with the community so we can both come to a solution, this constant nerfing of anything and everything without rhyme or reason is getting nowhere.

 

 

[Mell.4873]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm not going to quote your long post but most of the things that could make mirage cloak so called OP have already been addressed or outright prevented. That is partly why it bothers me it hasn't been reverted to two dodges.
Clone ambushes have had been prenerfed and some nerfed even after one dodge, Infinite Horizon making clones use ambush is essentially nerfed from that fact. Clones' inherent counterplay has always been AoEs or simply being cleaved out and any projectile or melee clones can be reflected or kited since unlike chrono clones they don't have superspeed.

If necessary the clone ambushes could be made CC-able or delayed 0.75 to 1s in PVP/WVW and not while evading. (The commonly referenced "you are invuln but still doing DPS".) Given that the ambushes are largely condi if it is deemed the power damage is a problem that could simply be reduced in competitive modes (Greatsword ambush isn't split in PVP/WVW and neither is sword) as conditions inherently have counterplay through cleansing. That doesn't even count the fact that scepter and staff are mostly projectile and that power builds' clones do essentially no damage.

Jaunt isn't a stunbreak so you'd need to run blink for a stunbreak that moves ; both of these skills mainly counter any pulsing AoEs and not any near-instant single hit damage.

If mirage mirrors (from utility skills) counting as "free dodges" are the issue they can be made target-able with CC (see the mechanist mech) much like continuum split. Seeing how they give away your position it is debatable whether those mirage mirrors even count as usable in most situations unless you are fighting in place. In WVW for example it is essentially meaningless in a moving engagement as opposed to a stalemate or an in-structure fight because you aren't going to be backtracking all the way to pick up a mirage mirror.

There are so many solutions that are already pre-existing and if Arenanet would just take the time to engage in a meaningful conversation with the community I am sure this kind of balancing could be resolved.

Pretty much agree, putting simple Ambush cooldown or even delay would probably fix everything. Right now both Virtuoso and Chronomancer can dominate in PvP so I don't see why they cant unnerf Mirage. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Mell.4873

[godfat.2604]

An Untamed main said so.

[Varis.5467]

18 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yeah, that's kind of what i'm afraid of, we're like, 10 people in this thread, and the rest of Mesmers aren't really main on the class, or are playing Virtuoso or whatever in PvE, and in the mesmer group - how many people do WvW and not only PvE, and in those - how many want to play Mirage?

I feel that most of the time whenever someone speak up against the nerf or suggest any change remotely helpful to the class in this community, they would get shoot down by some self-proclaimed "mesmer mains". 

 

Some of these "mesmer mains" would even argue against the most obvious subjects and problems that make mesmer simply unfun. After reading their responses, you'd wonder if they are playing the same GW2 as the rest of us. 

 

Honestly, the mesmer community just need to speak up. Don't swallow the poor treatment from the balance team who got mesmer into this terrible state purely out of personal preference and bias against a class (referring to the leak from a while ago; which Anet had to publicly address.)

Edited January 21, 2023 by Varis.5467

[Veprovina.4876]

5 hours ago, Varis.5467 said:

I feel that most of the time whenever someone speak up against the nerf or suggest any change remotely helpful to the class in this community, they would get shoot down by some self-proclaimed "mesmer mains". 

Yes, that is the general behaviour. Someone loses in PvP to a mesmer, comes here sings praises how mesmer is dominating everything, Anet doesn't bother to check and nerfs us.

 

Then we had Ranger mains singing praises how Virtuoso is perfect and doesn't need chanigng when literally everyone who actually played mesmer saw the problems with it and we requested a fix.

 

And it's probably not that Anet believes those people, but since they have a bias themselves, it's easier just to ditch us and call it a day i guess. I'm happy to be proven wrong in this regard though. But so far - evidence suggests otherwise.

[Varis.5467]

16 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Then we had Ranger mains singing praises how Virtuoso is perfect and doesn't need chanigng when literally everyone who actually played mesmer saw the problems with it and we requested a fix.

You couldn't have been more obvious with this one 😂

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Varis.5467 said:

You couldn't have been more obvious with this one 😂

Well, i wasn't trying to be subtle. 😉

It's true though.  🤷‍♂️

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:09 PM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yeah, that's kind of what i'm afraid of, we're like, 10 people in this thread, and the rest of Mesmers aren't really main on the class, or are playing Virtuoso or whatever in PvE, and in the mesmer group - how many people do WvW and not only PvE, and in those - how many want to play Mirage?

The rest of mesmers aren't even playing the game anymore.

[Veprovina.4876]

30 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The rest of mesmers aren't even playing the game anymore.

Well, now that you mention it - yeah, i don't see a lot of mesmers around...Not even in PvE, let alone WvW. Idk about PvP though, i don't play that but i doubt we're "dominating" lol.

[Varis.5467]

8 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well, now that you mention it - yeah, i don't see a lot of mesmers around...Not even in PvE, let alone WvW. Idk about PvP though, i don't play that but i doubt we're "dominating" lol.

It could have been a typo - "dominated" would be much more passable in this context - assuming there are even mesmer to be dominated in pvp 🤣

[Veprovina.4876]

5 hours ago, Varis.5467 said:

It could have been a typo - "dominated" would be much more passable in this context - assuming there are even mesmer to be dominated in pvp 🤣

That would make more sense, yeah. 😄

[Axelteas.7192]

lol a bot mech giving tons of boons while an active mirage have nothing to give, sad devs.

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Axelteas.7192 said:

lol a bot mech giving tons of boons while an active mirage have nothing to give, sad devs.

There is a meme heal mirage by Mr Mystic but it's a lot more unwieldy to play. Alac mirage puts out might/fury with additional alac on dodge. This thread is about one dodge mirage so that comment about mechanist isn't quite relevant.

 

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There is a meme heal mirage by Mr Mystic but it's a lot more unwieldy to play. Alac mirage puts out might/fury with additional alac on dodge. This thread is about one dodge mirage so that comment about mechanist isn't quite relevant.

 

Well it is relevant, the thread name is about dodge and fixing mesmers. Dodge is the priority, but nonreason we can't discuss anything else. 🙂

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 1/21/2023 at 2:16 PM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yes, that is the general behaviour. Someone loses in PvP to a mesmer, comes here sings praises how mesmer is dominating everything, Anet doesn't bother to check and nerfs us.

 

Then we had Ranger mains singing praises how Virtuoso is perfect and doesn't need chanigng when literally everyone who actually played mesmer saw the problems with it and we requested a fix.

 

And it's probably not that Anet believes those people, but since they have a bias themselves, it's easier just to ditch us and call it a day i guess. I'm happy to be proven wrong in this regard though. But so far - evidence suggests otherwise.

I played 3 games of virtuoso in beta and I already knew the spec would be dead on arrival.
You would have to be omega delusional to think otherwise. Its been dead, it is dead and it WILL be forever dead, it just doesnt fuction in high ranked pvp.

[Veprovina.4876]

6 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

You would have to be omega delusional to think otherwise.

Yet, for some reason, people keep coming here insisting it's the best and viable.

Personally, i'm playing support chrono for years in WvW, and the only reason mesmers are even in our guild is what used to pass for boonstrip which was nerfed since then, and focus pull and gravity well. Sometimes illusion of life and veils, but some commanders don't bother with those. And this is the only build you get to play in WvW. All others suck even more, and Mirage is dead.

Meanwhile, when i played Friebrand i covered like, 3 roles, healing, cleansing, stability (SO much stability, it's not even funny how FB is the only one that can do that), AND other boons as well - albeit situational...

 

Like, come on...

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I played 3 games of virtuoso in beta and I already knew the spec would be dead on arrival.
You would have to be omega delusional to think otherwise. Its been dead, it is dead and it WILL be forever dead, it just doesnt fuction in high ranked pvp.

Virtuoso is amazing in sPvP, I mean Dueling it is a nightmare for any Ranger at the moment. I can fair better on my Untamed but is mostly rely on Condition damage and high vitality. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Mell.4873