All the best players play mechanist...

[godfat.2604]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The state of denial in this thread... 🙄

I can probably kind of relate, even though I disagree that Mechanist is fine (I am not saying it’s OP, just not fine and requires further changes). I can kind of relate because:

A) Anet had a track record that when they nerf things, that things must be nerfed into ground. That is scary.

B) Anet probably doesn’t understand what’s wrong with Mechanist, otherwise they won’t design this beast to begin with, and people are saying this is OP and over saturated. What Anet would react? Maybe nerf it into ground so people stop playing. Very typical Anet balancing strategy. Too many examples. The real problem is that it’s too passive and providing too many utilities at the same time. This cannot be tweaked by just changing numbers.

C) Engineers really need a good elite spec for PvE for so long. Actual engineers players are scared that Anet might nerf it into the group. Ok, this is the same as A, but maybe it’s so scary that it’s worth to mention again.

Frankly, I don’t know how to fix this beast without completely reworking Mechanist. No, I don’t want to waste my time making an executable plan for Anet when they clearly didn’t exactly listen to players and this is their jobs. If they want me to sign some contracts with them so I can help them, then sure. Not that I am expecting this would happen, just saying. Constructive feedback doesn’t mean free executable plans.

[Sunchaser.9854]

For class balance. Imagine a job where for 100-600% the work, you could see players receive 40-102% the pay, with 98% of players making a median of like 40-80% the potential pay and 2% 80-95% of the pay. It only pays out more on paper or for the 0.5% but for dramatically more effort. 

 

Imagine if you had a option to replace yourself with a robot or a macro recording of yourself at your job, giving you only 98-100% of potential pay (37k ceiling vs 35k for light effort and 28k), and that as long as you were any location within 1200 miles of your job, you still got paid regardless of whether or not you were sleeping or not, etc. 

 

Then the first option while being "better" on paper only ends up in practice having 99% of people competing with a robot balanced around frame perfect rotations. Admit it, if you could leave your job to play golf and watch movies  and get 98% of your pay or still end up with more. While any single trivial reason could dock 10-60% of your pay on the other spec.

They'd only be balanced on paper for 99% of people, but afking and giving 10% of the effort for 98% the reward like only having to work for 10 minutes a day vs 9-5 would be better for most people. What makes one class good is it drastically outperforms 8 for fractions of effort while being able to stack and provide all boons. Which should really either be a global class thing or trimmed.

What's the point of a specialist like a pizza cutter if scissors are 5x more useful and still cut pizza better than a person whose only role is to provide 50% as much alacrity... In their only dedicated alacrity role? Not even a lot of raid leaders want 50% alac. Its all 100% or bust. It takes two 50% alac specialists per 5 man to do what one ham or alac mech does for 5. its like being paid for TWO people's jobs for going golfing for 10% the effort. Its not balanced but who wouldn't? 

[ThunderX.6591]

Renegade Alac give 100% alac uptime and do decent damage, is even better than Mecha you know that right?

So why people get Mecha? Robot, easy as that, People like robot even unconsciously, easy.

 

Sunchaser, you explain things nicely, even if post became a bit longher, so, could you start asking for some Buffs to the "not so good class" like power dh/wb, non spectre thiefs specs, the strangely negletted Reaper, and so on? Could help a lot.

[Sunchaser.9854]

The base duration of Renegade's alacity is about 50%, which means you have to be around 200% boon uptime for it to start being "100%", which pretty much means getting out of all viper gear and a decently dramatic dps loss to run ritualist instead, while mechanist builds can still use a heavy amount of cheap berserkers in theirs. One of the common ideas was that you could run 2 Renegades to provide the alacity..

 

But i can't tell if it was from a old build or not, since all the builds mention 2 renegades per 10 people group instead of 2 renegades per 5 man group. And every time a group is looking for alac and i offer to swap and provide 50% they always respond they don't know any other class that does 50% so they'd rather prefer a whole one like a HAM or Alac Mechanist. But going full ritualists as well as concentration food and changing runes to go alac seems a viable way to make up for 50% duration to 100%, fair enough. But then the Alac Mechanist can still "provides its subgroup with permanent Alacrity, 25 stacks of Might and Fury whilst dealing as much Power Damage as possible." ( https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mechanist_-_Util_Alac_Mech ),

 

So,... It's ... kinda a case where.. you still uh.. Catch up to one and they're still doing 25 stacks of might and fury and able to use the same autoshottie build and provide fury just as soon as you catch up to one. So.. 😕 .. And sometimes i hear some people sometimes have the pet start tanking sometimes too so. :./ 

[Mell.4873]

17 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

Now think about what if they all just move to Mechanist. Same efforts, much better performance, and they can be even more sloppy now. Will this happen? Isn’t this already happening? What about instanced contents? I think everyone is aware of this already? https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity It’s quite common that a squad is composed with 4 Mechanists and 2 Firebrands. Fill the rest with a few Virtuoso and everything else. Changing toons always take time. We have more time to see what would happen next.

Based on that link it seem soulbeast is the best preforming class currently. 

[Kalthea.4326]

45 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Based on that link it seem soulbeast is the best preforming class currently. 

Common mistake with that chart. The final column shows All-Time stats, not the latest update. You want to look at the second-to-last column, labeled as the June update.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Common mistake with that chart. The final column shows All-Time stats, not the latest update. You want to look at the second-to-last column, labeled as the June update.

No I wasn't looking at play time just performance. In most dps rankings soulbeast came out in the top 5.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kalthea.4326]

55 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

No I wasn't looking at play time just performance. In most dps rankinga soulbeast came out in the top 5.

Oh, that's probably from the weapon changes to Ranger which made condi soulbeast leap ahead in damage. Though the thing you have to keep in mind is the amount of effort required to pull those dps numbers in comparison to other classes

[Sunchaser.9854]

Yeah honestly without a dps meter i can think it's pretty common to just think everyone and their mother is pulling off 30k-40k dps without a sweat. Honestly from my own personal observations. I've seen about 2 personal people do about 25k-35k non Mechanist dps in about, 400 people. But i've also seen about 30-40 mechanists pull off the same 25k-35k numbers since well it's built into a auto attack. Even some of the 30k-40k specs. it's not uncommon to hear people practice the builds for years just to hit 30k, on a 37k build with boons and 200-280 ms ping which is actually a pretty respectable number after like 5-75+ hours of practice. 

 

Thing is some people also say that like they practice for 75 hours and don't see like it pass over 30k dps with 280 ms ping and they wonder if their attacks might be clipping or if it's a rotation issue or if the timings for precise snowcrow benches just might be so literally tight and designed around low latency (which would make sense with say, 0.5 sec cds to 0.2-0.3 sec worth of 200-300 ms lag), that they don't really have any clear feedback if it's a rotation problem (they've been practicing it for 5-75 hours on golem on non mech builds, getting 30k on a mech for them takes 5 minutes, so it's spec not mech, Hmm), and it's just really not clear.

Most mmorpgs you just press the buttons and the autoattacks are usually done seperately. You also notice that some autos in some builds do like 20k-23k dps, while i think others of the other specs are like... literally only a paultry 250 damage + 400-500 damage over time in viper ascended full slots for a half second cast. If you just autoed, that'd be 0.5k dps + 1k dot damage. So 1.5k dps vs.. 28k autoshots of another class. So every second you are not using a ability on cd is probably a MAJOR dramatic dps loss on a class who's auto attacks might be 90% ability damage, 10% autoattacks.

 

But then there might be mallyx pulse interactions where the interaction isn't meant to actually use abilities on cd, but to pilot like a metronome where you need to count 1 second intervals to power up each mallyx torment loop where you need to use 75 energy in under 10 seconds, but need to juggle your cds in order to meet the benchmark. If you fail or mistime it, you might miss a 8k damage torment pulse, run out of energy, or result in 20% less dps off missing pulses or clipping damage from under optimal energy management.

 

There also are weapons that auto 20k-25k, But they might be hitbox dependent and don't offer the group much more than selfish dps. So the 27k-30k Low intensities of less meta builds often have features that might be why they aren't performing in the field. (etc: balanced around large hitbox without dodge but losing ability to deal benchmark numbers if they have dodge energy.. available.. Extremely backwards design, ) as well as a dodge that doesn't move you and loses 4k dps on smaller models vs building sizes might be situational or a deathwish on say, a boneskinner where idek if vindicator would just jump right back into the death pit if they used their rotation at a wrong time that most groups chain run as a fast 5 for strikes. 

 

I guess if all classes were standardized, like retooled so the power outliers were even, it actually wouldn't be bad, but it just feels very odd that it's mostly just seems hard struck to a couple right now. Honestly I just wonder why they'd design nearly all their specs to be piano specs if they actually didn't want the game to be played like it or reward it.. Seems like the players only get the choice to play the content their spec has, and gear swapping 300-400g weight/affix specific gear can be quite pricey. 

[Kozumi.5816]

On 8/9/2022 at 5:09 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

And the best players tend to deal the most damage.

 

This was posted at release

Then Anet says "nah, we'll buff mech even more!"

????

[Fozzie.5370]

On 8/10/2022 at 12:05 AM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Not really, it just show this community thinking ablity is restricted to 1 simple question : Is it meta ?

 

 

^^ YES really, Anet are a business at the end of the day, so ofc as a pure business strategy to sell more copies of EoD: Launch one OP new E-spec: Its plain and simple good business acumen for them. 

I very much beg to differ: Nothing at all to do with whether the Community think its Meta or not ? loool - Anet largely markets Gw2 to Open-world PvE'ers: Where Meta goes out the window.  Plain & Simple: Mech is 1) Ridiculously easy to play, 2) Is fun to play ( Massive Green Jade Bot with OP Elite Skill ), 3) Insane DPS for little to no skill involved: I.e. it's such an attractive profession for the massess ( Anet's core audience): Ergo excellent business strategy from Anet to launch Mech with EoD.  

If the answer was true to your statement, and Weaver was "META" do you really think the core Gw2 Open World Community would be running around playing Weaver ??? - No, because its a lot, lot more difficult to play than Mech, more squishy, much easier to make mistakes, way more difficult to achieve perfect rotation: It's maybe better for more experienced, skilled gamers, but these days is it really ? Just how many Weaver's do you now see in ALL Game modes these days ? Ergo: Mech is easier to play, more fun to play, insane DPS for very low skill ceiling. 

Matter of Fact: Mechanist was introduced with EoD Launch as a business / marketing strategy: Period. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Greg.7086

[Tammuz.7361]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:40 AM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Meta-defining.  Nerf inc.

 

Sadly they are now planning on BUFFing mechanist by adding another 5% damage increase to big boomer for some reason that only they know: 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Tammuz.7361

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Greg.7086 said:

 

^^ YES really, Anet are a business at the end of the day, so ofc as a pure business strategy to sell more copies of EoD: Launch one OP new E-spec: Its plain and simple good business acumen for them. 

I very much beg to differ: Nothing at all to do with whether the Community think its Meta or not ? loool - Anet largely markets Gw2 to Open-world PvE'ers: Where Meta goes out the window.  Plain & Simple: Mech is 1) Ridiculously easy to play, 2) Is fun to play ( Massive Green Jade Bot with OP Elite Skill ), 3) Insane DPS for little to no skill involved: I.e. it's such an attractive profession for the massess ( Anet's core audience): Ergo excellent business strategy from Anet to launch Mech with EoD.  

If the answer was true to your statement, and Weaver was "META" do you really think the core Gw2 Open World Community would be running around playing Weaver ??? - No, because its a lot, lot more difficult to play than Mech, more squishy, much easier to make mistakes, way more difficult to achieve perfect rotation: It's maybe better for more experienced, skilled gamers, but these days is it really ? Just how many Weaver's do you now see in ALL Game modes these days ? Ergo: Mech is easier to play, more fun to play, insane DPS for very low skill ceiling. 

Matter of Fact: Mechanist was introduced with EoD Launch as a business / marketing strategy: Period. 

Good.  If this is all about appealing to open world PvE players then they can balance its impact in group play without impacting that at all.  They appear to have figured out that the support aspects are way overtuned.  Perhaps next they'll stop making unnecessary buffs to pmech and tone that down, too.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

 

Sadly they are now planning on BUFFing mechanist by adding another 5% damage increase to big boomer for some reason that only they know: 

 

 

I didnt know big boomer is a Mechanist trait. Anet explicitely says the Big boomer buff is aimed at making Scrapper and Holosmith stronger. 

 

People like you are the reason there is so much misinformation and BS spreading around the community.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

I didnt know big boomer is a Mechanist trait. Anet explicitely says the Big boomer buff is aimed at making Scrapper and Holosmith stronger. 

 

People like you are the reason there is so much misinformation and BS spreading around the community.

This change impacts an already overperforming build, which undermines the effort to make holosmith and scrapper DPS builds competitive with it.  Perhaps they should consider toning pmech down instead of letting it continue to overperform?  

[Kozumi.5816]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

  Perhaps next they'll stop making unnecessary buffs to pmech and tone that down, too.

Not gonna happen. This is their new baby.

[ArjukKagrim.6049]

2 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

I didnt know big boomer is a Mechanist trait. Anet explicitely says the Big boomer buff is aimed at making Scrapper and Holosmith stronger. 

 

People like you are the reason there is so much misinformation and BS spreading around the community.

Big Boomer ist a trait used by pmech, therefore this change is a direct buff to pmech.

[Wolfshade.9251]

All the worst players also play mechanist.

[godfat.2604]

https://imgflip.com/i/6qbk27

[Kuma.1503]

Meanwhile FB is literally so OP that Anet can't nerf it. 

[Dadnir.5038]

If people weren't complaining about mechanist they would be complaining about another spec. Let's face it, the community will never be satisfied with the "meta".

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Honestly, I don't know what to say anymore.

 

My Jade Mech, while inheriting support stats and using melee attacks only, is still doing 5k DPS on ArcDPS while I'm camping Medkit (i.e, zero damage from me). That's similar damage to the average player in end-game content, and around twice as much as the average open-world player.

 

I've repeatedly pointed out why this is a problem, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Kodama.6453]

4 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Honestly, I don't know what to say anymore.

 

My Jade Mech, while inheriting support stats and using melee attacks only, is still doing 5k DPS on ArcDPS while I'm camping Medkit (i.e, zero damage from me). That's similar damage to the average player in end-game content, and around twice as much as the average open-world player.

 

I've repeatedly pointed out why this is a problem, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

Yes, this is a problem. But not with the mech in that case, but with the community.

If your average open-world player is just pulling 2,5k dps, then this just shows how absolutely terrible the builds of the average open-world players are. You can deal four times as much damage just with auto attack by having the right equip and a coherent build (and no, I don't mean mechanist, but I can do way more just by spamming bomb kit or hammer auto attack on scrapper, for example).

Edited August 19, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[AliamRationem.5172]

21 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Yes, this is a problem. But not with the mech in that case, but with the community.

If your average open-world player is just pulling 2,5k dps, then this just shows how absolutely terrible the builds of the average open-world players are. You can deal four times as much damage just with auto attack by having the right equip and a coherent build (and no, I don't mean mechanist, but I can do way more just by spamming bomb kit or hammer auto attack on scrapper, for example).

If it only applied at the low end, then I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.  So, players who can't contribute on a normal build are now performing adequately in open world squads and solo play?  Great!  Unfortunately, that isn't the reality of the situation with mechanist.

Look at GW2wingman and you'll see that mechanist is at or near the top DPS on almost every single raid boss.  There are only a couple where that isn't the case.  Recent low-man speed kills use power mech for its high ranged burst as well.  There's really no pretending this spec isn't overperforming.                     

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

If people weren't complaining about mechanist they would be complaining about another spec. Let's face it, the community will never be satisfied with the "meta".

The worst part is that the build that people are so offended by (power rifle) isn't the one that is meta or topping DPS stats on Wingman right now (Condi barrierspam) People don't even know what they are complaining about anymore. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Obtena.7952