What if stealth dealt damage per second to those in it?

[Loke.1429]

I've been thinking about how attrocious the perfect stealth mechanic really is in this game, and how to easily balance it more reasonably. What if stealth had a built in negative condition, which made high stealth uptime punished? E.g. 350 damage per second while in stealth or something not too rediculous.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Loke.1429

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Just need better reveals, and remove Deadeye anti reveal that makes no sense, that's like having a Condi that's "uncleansable", or a boon that's "uncorruptable".

[oscuro.9720]

3 hours ago, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

Just need better reveals, and remove Deadeye anti reveal that makes no sense, that's like having a Condi that's "uncleansable", or a boon that's "uncorruptable".

Not that I disagree with you, but don’t we have boons that are incorruptible? 

[Dadnir.5038]

The main issue is that stealth in GW2 is "perfect invisibility with no drawback". I don't think stealth dealing damage to the character would be a good solution, however, I'd be in favor of downgrading stealth from "perfect invisibility" to "transparency" (not very different from how you see your stealthed allies).

[Fueki.4753]

While I think that Stealth being a self-DoT might be an easy solution to fix stealth, I'd rather have Arenanet address the core problem with stealth: complete invisibility.

Stealth should have a proximity-based audio effect, as well as be see-through (but still not be able to be targetted) within 300 range units.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[cyberzombie.7348]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The main issue is that stealth in GW2 is "perfect invisibility with no drawback"

Another branching issue is that thief relies on some form of stealth for defense and recovery. It also doesn't help that acrobatics, a traitline that was useful for in-combat defense and recovery was nerfed since Daredevil came to existence.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

I think making invisibility be transparency at all times would destroy it completely lol, but i had an idea based on this, they could make it this way, if you hit a Thief with a damaging skill they get briefly transparent, and you also see the damage number where they are, even better, if you hit a Thief with a damaging condition, they get transparent as long as the condi is tiking and you also see the damage numbers, this could also make Condi kinda be the optimal counter to Thieves in a way.

This way good Thiefs that can avoid damage still retain their advantage, while bad Thieves will be punished if they get hit while invisible.

Biggest problem with this mechanic would happen in large scale battles in WvW, but that's another monster that's been plaguing Thief since forever lol.

[Dadnir.5038]

24 minutes ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Another branching issue is that thief relies on some form of stealth for defense and recovery. It also doesn't help that acrobatics, a traitline that was useful for in-combat defense and recovery was nerfed since Daredevil came to existence.

You're both right and wrong.

You're right in the sense that most PvP thiefs players have been mainly using stealth for defense and recovery.

You're wrong in the sense that the way you're saying this, it make it seem like this is the only option available to thiefs.

Recently the devs have started to try to "encourage" thiefs player to stay less in stealth. Most have or will adapt to the "new" way you can benefit from stealth, some will continue to mourn the thing they "lost" and a few might try to explore the potential of some things they've long put into a dusty corner because it was deemed inferior to stealth as a mean of sustain.

NB: It's true that acrobatic isn't what I'd call a "great traitline", thought.

[cyberzombie.7348]

2 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're wrong in the sense that the way you're saying this, it make it seem like this is the only option available to thiefs.

I'm not saying that its the only option, I'm aware or the other forms of defenses like evasion, shadowsteps, blinds, and dazes. What I was getting at is that thief gets pushed into using stealth to some degree, regardless of the weapon set. Even on s/d, a kit that relies on evasion and shadowstep management still uses cloak and dagger to play at full effect.

Also when considering a thief's entire kit, stealth carries a lot more synergy and secondary bonuses than the aforementioned. So buffing acro and giving more synergy to the other defenses would be a more permanent solution.

[itspomf.9523]

13 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The main issue is that stealth in GW2 is "perfect invisibility with no drawback". I don't think stealth dealing damage to the character would be a good solution, however, I'd be in favor of downgrading stealth from "perfect invisibility" to "transparency" (not very different from how you see your stealthed allies).

I'd add to this by saying that stealth within a specific range should make the target progressively more visible.  That way, the closer you are to a stealthed target, the less "stealthed" they are, thus necessitating finesse on the part of the one in stealth (and generally relegating it to someone fleeing, since we know enough players use a top-down camera in competitive and high-end game modes).

It'd help balance things out, mitigate the quasi-permastealth builds that still exist thanks to the Dagger/Pistol interaction they never removed, and and make it easier to actually chase and corner a target, rather than just blind-firing AOEs.

So yeah, I'm all for it.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:52 PM, Loke.1429 said:

I've been thinking about how attrocious the perfect stealth mechanic really is in this game, and how to easily balance it more reasonably. What if stealth had a built in negative condition, which made high stealth uptime punished? E.g. 350 damage per second while in stealth or something not too rediculous.

I like this idea. A teammate of mine running past me with almost 0 health, and I can just quickly stealth them for a meme teamkill. You could literally chase your own teammates down in WvW and stealth them to death. Please make this the next april fools joke a-net!

[Loke.1429]

47 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I like this idea. A teammate of mine running past me with almost 0 health, and I can just quickly stealth them for a meme teamkill. You could literally chase your own teammates down in WvW and stealth them to death. Please make this the next april fools joke a-net!

I know you are just being salty, but if they wanted they could make it stop doing damage at 33% hp or something. Either way it was just an example. Also rather suprised how many people bother to put negative emoticons and not engage in discussion.

[Bazsi.2734]

2 hours ago, Loke.1429 said:

I know you are just being salty, but if they wanted they could make it stop doing damage at 33% hp or something. Either way it was just an example. Also rather suprised how many people bother to put negative emoticons and not engage in discussion.

Sorry, I had no idea you dislike it when people are agreeing with you.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Just delete it, game engine barely can keep-up with that bs. On top of that add massive amount of teleports and mobility and game is more confused than a newbie that got stealth bombed by condi virtuoso.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Terrible idea, since stealth is not only an offensive ability.
All it's needed is stack max duration 3sec,  after 3 sec reveals you whether you attack or not.
Of course you've to remove all reveal skills in compensation.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Is stealth really even still a problem? I find things like Moa way more egregious now; they've hit thieves and mesmers so hard that I'm way more afraid of the ones that don't use stealth...

[Chips.7968]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:55 PM, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

Just need better reveals, and remove Deadeye anti reveal that makes no sense, that's like having a Condi that's "uncleansable", or a boon that's "uncorruptable".

What, like Superspeed (which technically isn't a boon, therefore can't be stripped/corrupted), but increases movement speed by 100% instead of 33% from swiftness etc.

Tbh come up with whatever counter for stealth you like. In return, can we get stability please. Actually, there's a bit of a list of boons that thief could well do with getting if stealth is going to be nerfed... 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chips.7968

[Sahne.6950]

Coming from other games that have stealth mechanics, and even stealthts that make you completly insivible...

 

Reveal skills were pretty standard in everyones build....  maybe simply adding reveal effects to more skills, will fix the problem all along... who knows....

 

But actually i think that no reveal on this planet will fix the mess that thief is....  The main problem here is.... a good thief is like a annoying fly that you cant catch. A fly can not kill you on its own. It will land on you, it will tickle and then vanish again to a diffrent corner of you room uuuh i mean borderland...  But in the unlucky event that you are in a heated argument with your mother uuhhh i mean another roamer... The fly can land a lucky punch, flying in your mouth and completly ruin your day....

 

tldr: flys have to much mobility, they can spamevade the "flyslapper" and simply Yeet to another dimension without any chance to catchup. This alone is frustrating to most players.... you simply dont have alot of counterplay against flys... At the second the fly is in danger... it will bsssssss  away.... Stealth only makes this easier

my thesis is: a thief completly without stealth, will be just as annoying. cuz they can still just shortbow5 into shadowstep and they are gone... like gone gone....

The whole concept of: You can barely touch this profession...... just feels SOO OFF....  and its not only stealth... its the mobility aswell...  Both mechanics mobility and stealth have very little and stealth has basicly no counterplay at all... 

 

But we are in this weird state, where i dont even dare to say it... s/d and d/p thiefs are not very good right now. The bright masses will outright succ with it, while you have this 2% that are annoying flys that will land on your arm and monitor all the time when your just trying to farm some GoB...

Edited August 15, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sansar.1302]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:53 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The main issue is that stealth in GW2 is "perfect invisibility with no drawback". I don't think stealth dealing damage to the character would be a good solution, however, I'd be in favor of downgrading stealth from "perfect invisibility" to "transparency" (not very different from how you see your stealthed allies).

I don't play a stealth class,  but I think that would make it 100% useless 

 

[Rogue.8235]

I think stealth is perfect as it is, mechanically.  However, it's purpose has altered too much since its invocation on release.  Stealth was supposed to be a burst -like tool to help thieves reposition in the middle of a fight.  it was only supposed to last just long enough for some combat maneuvering, and that's it.  It shouldn't have ever been something that can last for extended periods.  That's what made the stealth mechanic different in GW2, on release.  Where other games used stealth as a toggle for long periods of time, GW2 stealth was, at most, a few seconds for the thief to get one thing done in combat.  

 

Oh, and you can still kill thieves that are in stealth.  I almost never meet a thief that isn't predictable.  Actually, almost every match is predictable as people mostly use skill rotations in PvP rather than actually playing against the other player.  It's like fighting scripted NPC's.  

Example, you're isolated and you hear black powder shot.  You know there's going to be 3 heartseekers and a ~2 second window for them to get to you for the attack.  They'll approach straight at you because, hey, they're stealth why bother changing angles of attack when the target can't see you?  This give this gives you the exact window time and location for you to burst them before they get the ambush off.  The 2 second window assumes you stopped moving to force them to come to you.  You're movement obviously changes the timing, but that is also to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

 

Anyways, stealth needs to be a 1-3 second window of invisibility, not longer.  It should only be long enough to change positioning to strike a different target in the middle of a fight, change the angle of attack on the current target, or cover your initial escape.  It should be a valuable resource that you need to save to get that one critical task done during a fight, not something that can be continuously used at will.

 

Just my opinion though.  

 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I think stealth is perfect as it is, mechanically.  However, it's purpose has altered too much since its invocation on release.  Stealth was supposed to be a burst -like tool to help thieves reposition in the middle of a fight.  it was only supposed to last just long enough for some combat maneuvering, and that's it.  It shouldn't have ever been something that can last for extended periods.  That's what made the stealth mechanic different in GW2, on release.  Where other games used stealth as a toggle for long periods of time, GW2 stealth was, at most, a few seconds for the thief to get one thing done in combat.  

 

Oh, and you can still kill thieves that are in stealth.  I almost never meet a thief that isn't predictable.  Actually, almost every match is predictable as people mostly use skill rotations in PvP rather than actually playing against the other player.  It's like fighting scripted NPC's.  

Example, you're isolated and you hear black powder shot.  You know there's going to be 3 heartseekers and a ~2 second window for them to get to you for the attack.  They'll approach straight at you because, hey, they're stealth why bother changing angles of attack when the target can't see you?  This give this gives you the exact window time and location for you to burst them before they get the ambush off.  The 2 second window assumes you stopped moving to force them to come to you.  You're movement obviously changes the timing, but that is also to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

 

Anyways, stealth needs to be a 1-3 second window of invisibility, not longer.  It should only be long enough to change positioning to strike a different target in the middle of a fight, change the angle of attack on the current target, or cover your initial escape.  It should be a valuable resource that you need to save to get that one critical task done during a fight, not something that can be continuously used at will.

 

Just my opinion though.  

 

 

It makes sense and is how I use stealth as an immob Druid, the purpose is only repositioning or escaping, nothing else.  Since you have to build astral force to do it, it isn't spammable either.  

I'm not sure how that would translate to other classes; maybe for thief initiative gain is locked while you are in stealth? That way you'd have to choose when to use stealth and also what you are going to do when you exit it as you won't gain the initiative back until you exit?

[Demonhead.7584]

On 8/13/2022 at 11:44 PM, Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:

they could make it this way, if you hit a Thief with a damaging skill they get briefly transparent,

You'd have to first fix the issue where if a skill like rapid fire is pressed a split second before you enter stealth, they seem to have magic homing arrows that strike constantly even after you've entered said stealth and broken the LoS.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Demonhead.7584

[Gibson.4036]

7 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

Oh, and you can still kill thieves that are in stealth.  

 

One of the most satisfying experiences in the game is when you place your AoE right and a thief comes out of stealth dead.

[Rogue.8235]

22 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

One of the most satisfying experiences in the game is when you place your AoE right and a thief comes out of stealth dead.

 

LOL yes it is.  Also, having been on the other side of it too, you miss out on the panicky run in circles before death.  At least, that's what I've done when dying in stealth, the standard I'm-on-fire-run-in-circles! dance.

 

Another satisfying moment:

Attacking a thief/mesmer then they stealth.  Team fight carries on a while longer and you start wondering "whatever did happen to that thief/mesmer?"  

Then a corpse unstealths.

"Ah, that's where they went."

 

[Rogue.8235]

On 8/15/2022 at 5:18 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It makes sense and is how I use stealth as an immob Druid, the purpose is only repositioning or escaping, nothing else.  Since you have to build astral force to do it, it isn't spammable either.  

I'm not sure how that would translate to other classes; maybe for thief initiative gain is locked while you are in stealth? That way you'd have to choose when to use stealth and also what you are going to do when you exit it as you won't gain the initiative back until you exit?

 

Not sure that's a good way to go about it.  Even so, to return stealth back to its original conception/intended gameplay (I'm guessing since I don't know ArenaNet's actual intentions, thief in particular would need a massive overhaul. 

Mesmer has prolonged stealth (mass invisibility) and has always had a trait to play prolonged hide-and-seek (prismatic understanding), so that seems intended.  Engineer has a gyro that doesn't stealth itself. , so prolonged stealth is balanced in that regard.  I think it's only thief, in particular, that has this unbalanced, extended hide-and-seek problem (not counting any rune interactions, you know the one).  

To be honest though, I always did prefer, and still utilize, stealth as a short burst of repositioning rather than using it to stay hidden for a long period.  Others will have their own look on things.