Holosmith in the Balance Update Preview - ANet please consider a further buff

[Xyonon.3987]

Hello everyone!

 

Quote

The previous update's Mechanist-only damage reduction to Aim-Assisted Rocket left us with room to add damage to the core trait Big Boomer, bringing up the damage output of Holosmiths and Scrappers. That's not enough to close the gap on its own, so we're also making specialization-specific damage increases to Scrapper and Holosmith on sword, hammer, and Blast Gyro–which, in addition to more damage, will now stun enemies rather than knocking them away.

 

Power Holosmith is a build ANet want to see viable, which is to no surprise. However the presented changes to both core Engineer and Holosmith are insufficient to make Holosmith compete with the alternatives on both different and the same class. The following changes affect Holosmith:

• Big Boomer: (PvE only) Damage increase changed from 10% to 15%.
• Refraction Cutter: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 1 to 1.4.
• Radiant Arc: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 1.5 to 1.8. (this skill is a DPS loss over auto attacking)
• Throw Mine: (All game modes) The animation aftercast before another skill may be used has been reduced by 0.5 seconds. Damage multiplier increased from 2 to 3.

 

Currently Holosmith is in a very bad spot. Like all the other power classes it suffered a lot from the removal of banners, however the crit chance we recieved to compensate doesn't affect an Engineer in full bereserk gear, as we are well over 100% crit chance. At the moment Holosmith benches around 32k DPS with a burst that is a shadow of what it once was. Power Mechanist at the moment is at 36.5k and will be at 37.5k post patch due to Big Boomer affecting it to 55%. Ironically, base core power Engineer is also 31k, so the Holosmith trait line is not even a real DPS increase at the moment!

 

The buffs mentioned above affect Holosmith approximately by these numbers:

• Big Boomer: +1250 DPS
• Refraction Cutter: +500 DPS (sword only)
• Throw Mine: +750 DPS (probably sword only)

 

That being said we're gonna end up with about 2500 more DPS putting us at 33500 DPS,  over 10% behind power Mechanist and over 20% behind the current top power DPS (Bladesworn). Therefore I believe it is necessary to buff Holosmith specific traits such as Laser's Edge and/or rework Solar Focusing Lens (a horrible to work with trait right now) for us to close the gap on this otherwise wonderful class.

 

Thank you for reading, I hope it gets views.

- Xyonon

Edited August 14, 2022 by Xyonon.3987

[anbujackson.9564]

I wish they wouldnt buff sword too much as compensation to be honest.

What I would like to see is stuff you mentioned. Like laser edge back to its pre nerf value. I want to play PBM rifle, not sword. 🙂

[Artificer.3468]

Seeing it like this does put it into perspective.

 

Would definitely like to see a bump to holo traits as they could help out both the rifle and sword variants

[Coolster.2536]

I'd also like to see Crystal Configuration: Storm buffed, since none of the major Master tier traits affect Holosmith's dps

[Nephalem.8921]

28 minutes ago, Coolster.2536 said:

I'd also like to see Crystal Configuration: Storm buffed, since none of the major Master tier traits affect Holosmith's dps

Adept and master trait barely affect dps.

10% mod for 2 attacks. why?

[Infusion.7149]

I think the sad part is players have devolved into using mechanist so most people that aren't engineer mains are going to play that over holo even if both are similar in performance. Mechanist is simply easier and that is what drew many pet spec lovers that were playing rangers. It's essentially autopilot given changes since EOD launch. Holo is the opposite in that you have a far smaller margin of error due to overheat as well as the damage bonus based on heat.

The initial iteration of mechanist people complained about is not nearly as bad as what it is now. That's more of side effect of nerfs to other things since it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's not so much a problem of med kit or core engineer skills, even if Arenanet thinks so and nerfs med kit of all things.

[lorddarkflare.9186]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I think the sad part is players have devolved into using mechanist so most people that aren't engineer mains are going to play that over holo even if both are similar in performance. Mechanist is simply easier and that is what drew many pet spec lovers that were playing rangers. It's essentially autopilot given changes since EOD launch. Holo is the opposite in that you have a far smaller margin of error due to overheat as well as the damage bonus based on heat.

The initial iteration of mechanist people complained about is not nearly as bad as what it is now. That's more of side effect of nerfs to other things since it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's not so much a problem of med kit or core engineer skills, even if Arenanet thinks so and nerfs med kit of all things.

 

I don't think we should particularly care what most people choose to play personally.

The important thing here is that more things are viable and that we have a reason to play Holosmith in hard content in cases other than underwater fractal.

I don't mind Rifle Mech remaining high performing, but power Holosmith needs to feel more rewarding to play. It is a lot of effort with a lot of disaster on the line a bit more likely than Mech Death.

I agree with calls to Solar Focusing Lens. Except I think it should be merged in Laser's Edge and should work more like rushing justice (it should be active for the 5 second period you are locked into the forge). This accomplishes 3 things:

1. Flat buff to power builds.
2. Gives life to condi Holosmith maybe.
3. Opens a trait for some more utility.
4. Makes Cele Holo better in Open World and WvW (this may actually be a downside).

Edited August 14, 2022 by lorddarkflare.9186

[SentriX.3209]

I'd like to see core traits revamped...especially tools and firearms.

[Xyonon.3987]

I think the best thing they could do is change Solar Focusing Lens to no longer only affect a few hits but instead last the full duration of 4s every time you enter / leave forge. That's not a high uptime but 10% for that time, overall 4-5% should come from that with intricate gameplay. That trait hasn't worked smoothly ever since.

[Wolfb.7025]

I'm neutral about Big Boomer buff.

On the bad side, it's a trait that depends a lot on the holosmith avoiding damage, if you get slight damage at the start of the fight you lose 15% of your damage on your burst which is huge. But on the good side it's something that separates holosmiths with the good holosmiths, i'm slightly against classes that just does bursts tankign everything and gets the best DPS (cofcofslb, specter).

 

I wish they would also realize Rifle Holo exists, I'd like it if they would tweak rifle damage a little, reduce Rifle1 dmg and give it to rifle2 or rifle5, rifle holo doesn't use rifle1.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Wolfb.7025

[Nephalem.8921]

4 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

I'm neutral about Big Boomer buff.

On the bad side, it's a trait that depends a lot on the holosmith avoiding damage, if you get slight damage at the start of the fight you lose 15% of your damage on your burst which is huge. But on the good side it's something that separates holosmiths with the good holosmiths, i'm slightly against classes that just does bursts tankign everything and gets the best DPS (cofcofslb, specter).

 

I wish they would also realize Rifle Holo exists, I'd like it if they would tweak rifle damage a little, reduce Rifle1 dmg and give it to rifle2 or rifle5, rifle holo doesn't use rifle1.

Bombless rifle holo does work actually.

[Ashgar.3024]

Yeah this is the patches blindspot. Holo needs more sustained DPS. Besides buffing Big Boomer also buffs Rifle Mec putting us right back at square one anyway, lol.

 

I think its the traits they should look into, specially the GMs as currently the only one really worth using is Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit.

 

Turning the effect of Crystal Configuration : Storm into a minor or at least making it not compete with Crystal Configuration Eclipse (which is a bigger damage buff anyway as it severely improves Big Boomer and Scholar uptime) could be something worth exploring as well.

 

Or at least look at the Condi traits so a Condi or hybrid build is at le considering on fights where the Power Holo damage profile doesn't really work.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Ashgar.3024]

5 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

i'm slightly against classes that just does bursts tankign everything and gets the best DPS (cofcofslb, specter).

Specter's burst does require some timing based on your squadmate's positioning though. Its just different.

 

Not that i disagree the spec could use some tweaks to make it a bit less simplistic (like Scepter 2 and Shadow Squall being worth pressing for example.)

[Xyonon.3987]

19 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Yeah this is the patches blindspot. Holo needs more sustained DPS. Besides buffing Big Boomer also buffs Rifle Mec putting us right back at square one anyway, lol.

That's not quite true. % Modifers only have 55% effect on pMech, so Big Boomer is only 2% more damage for pMech as it doesn't affect the mech itself, only the Mechanist.

[Ashgar.3024]

58 minutes ago, Xyonon.3987 said:

That's not quite true. % Modifers only have 55% effect on pMech, so Big Boomer is only 2% more damage for pMech as it doesn't affect the mech itself, only the Mechanist.

That's a good point, didn't think of that.

[Jerus.4350]

Only thing I can add is I wouldn’t mind a little condi love on Holo, but yeah a little bit more for holo is going to be needed.  The sword buffs only effect half the rotation, so it’s not as much of a buff as it might seem, and 5% from big boomer just isn’t enough to put Holo back in to place. 

[coro.3176]

Quote

The previous update's Mechanist-only damage reduction to Aim-Assisted Rocket left us with room to add damage to the core trait Big Boomer, bringing up the damage output of Holosmiths and Scrappers.

The reasoning behind the Big Boomer buff betrays an unstated premise that the balance dev(s) now consider Explosions to be mandatory.

That is .. IMO backwards. What they should be doing instead is trying to make *each* traitline roughly equal in potential DPS contribution, including elite specs.

That way if you wanted to have like, Firearms/Tools/Scrapper, you could, or Inventions/Alchemy/Holo or something weird, you could make it work. The trait system was supposed to be about flexibility.

That would require a huge nerf to mech damage or uptime though. You just can't have a pet doing that much and still be balanced with any other Engi traitline.

[Lily.1935]

I think I'd like to see two variants of Holosmith builds. A kits build which we've seen in the past and an exceed build. Currently only laser disk and prime light beam are used in the builds. But If it has some nice trait synergy with bonus damage when using an exceed skill like triggering 1-3 stacks from solar focusing lens when using them we could see an exceed build being used as an alternative to kits.

I like Kits as much as the next girl, however Every elite spec for engineer should have a good DPS option when not running kits. Mechanist does, Scrapper probably will after this patch, but I just don't see that happening for holosmith. Holosmith is my favorite elite of the 3 (Although Mechanist is very close second and scrapper doesn't trail too far behind those two). So it pains me when Holosmith is both so much harder to use, glassier and does less damage than mechanist.

I'm perfectly fine with Power mech doing 28k with nothing but auto attacking. I have a lot of friends who live in Australia who can't get better than around 200 ping. I also have a lot of friends with disabilities that doesn't allow for them to master or even get very good at more complex builds. So having a easy to understand and use build is healthy for the game. And Mechanist is the build I give to new players and players who wont be able to reach those difficult benchmarks for whatever reason because they should be allowed to enjoy the game too. So we don't need to nerf that. In fact, don't. Just buff all the other engineer specs to be on par with simple rotations and surpass them with more complex rotations.

Clear up some confusion. Easy to use builds are good to have for people with disabilities or poor connections. Accessibility to the game is a good thing! People with disabilities should be able to enjoy the game too.

Part of the the draw of an elite spec is its weapon, mechanic and its unique utility skills. Exceed skills are the holosmith's unique utility skills and you should be able to use them effectively with either a power or condition damage build.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Lily.1935
for those who are confused

[Katary.7096]

Considering that this update increases a whole lot of power coefficients across skills, they could simply do the same for Photon Forge abilites to help out holo.

[Fwog.9387]

Throw mine might see use in wvw with the changes . Doubt it in pve. When the spellbreaker drops bubble, you can toss a mine at it to help strip the boons alongside the necros. 

[Wolfb.7025]

42 minutes ago, Fwog.9387 said:

Throw mine might see use in wvw with the changes . Doubt it in pve.

THrow Mine is actually used in PVE by sword holos, specially in Fractals due to short phase bosses and npng.

[lorddarkflare.9186]

On 8/16/2022 at 10:48 PM, Lily.1935 said:

I think I'd like to see two variants of Holosmith builds. A kits build which we've seen in the past and an exceed build. Currently only laser disk and prime light beam are used in the builds. But If it has some nice trait synergy with bonus damage when using an exceed skill like triggering 1-3 stacks from solar focusing lens when using them we could see an exceed build being used as an alternative to kits.

I like Kits as much as the next girl, however Every elite spec for engineer should have a good DPS option when not running kits. Mechanist does, Scrapper probably will after this patch, but I just don't see that happening for holosmith. Holosmith is my favorite elite of the 3 (Although Mechanist is very close second and scrapper doesn't trail too far behind those two). So it pains me when Holosmith is both so much harder to use, glassier and does less damage than mechanist.

I'm perfectly fine with Power mech doing 28k with nothing but auto attacking. I have a lot of friends who live in Australia who can't get better than around 200 ping. I also have a lot of friends with disabilities that doesn't allow for them to master or even get very good at more complex builds. So having a easy to understand and use build is healthy for the game. And Mechanist is the build I give to new players and players who wont be able to reach those difficult benchmarks for whatever reason because they should be allowed to enjoy the game too. So we don't need to nerf that. In fact, don't. Just buff all the other engineer specs to be on par with simple rotations and surpass them with more complex rotations.

Clear up some confusion. Easy to use builds are good to have for people with disabilities or poor connections. Accessibility to the game is a good thing! People with disabilities should be able to enjoy the game too.

Part of the the draw of an elite spec is its weapon, mechanic and its unique utility skills. Exceed skills are the holosmith's unique utility skills and you should be able to use them effectively with either a power or condition damage build.

 

I don't disagree, but which Scrapper build are you referring to?

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 8/14/2022 at 12:12 AM, lorddarkflare.9186 said:

 

I don't think we should particularly care what most people choose to play personally.

The important thing here is that more things are viable and that we have a reason to play Holosmith in hard content in cases other than underwater fractal.

I don't mind Rifle Mech remaining high performing, but power Holosmith needs to feel more rewarding to play. It is a lot of effort with a lot of disaster on the line a bit more likely than Mech Death.

I agree with calls to Solar Focusing Lens. Except I think it should be merged in Laser's Edge and should work more like rushing justice (it should be active for the 5 second period you are locked into the forge). This accomplishes 3 things:

1. Flat buff to power builds.
2. Gives life to condi Holosmith maybe.
3. Opens a trait for some more utility.
4. Makes Cele Holo better in Open World and WvW (this may actually be a downside).

I would say you really can't make condi Holosmith more viable then Celestial Holosmith simply because of the way Photon Forge is primarily power without doing something drastic like reworking a lot of engineers skills. If you want to open more utility it's certainly an option, I think they should look at Crystal Configuration: Storm because I see no reason why you would ever take this trait when the other options are better.

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 8/14/2022 at 8:47 PM, Ashgar.3024 said:

Turning the effect of Crystal Configuration : Storm into a minor or at least making it not compete with Crystal Configuration Eclipse (which is a bigger damage buff anyway as it severely improves Big Boomer and Scholar uptime) could be something worth exploring as well.

Personally I would rather see them buff Crystal Configuration: Storm so as to be able to compete with the other traits in that tier rather then moving it. Or just rework it.

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 8/16/2022 at 9:48 PM, Lily.1935 said:

I think I'd like to see two variants of Holosmith builds. A kits build which we've seen in the past and an exceed build. Currently only laser disk and prime light beam are used in the builds. But If it has some nice trait synergy with bonus damage when using an exceed skill like triggering 1-3 stacks from solar focusing lens when using them we could see an exceed build being used as an alternative to kits.

I like Kits as much as the next girl, however Every elite spec for engineer should have a good DPS option when not running kits. Mechanist does, Scrapper probably will after this patch, but I just don't see that happening for holosmith. Holosmith is my favorite elite of the 3 (Although Mechanist is very close second and scrapper doesn't trail too far behind those two). So it pains me when Holosmith is both so much harder to use, glassier and does less damage than mechanist.

I'm perfectly fine with Power mech doing 28k with nothing but auto attacking. I have a lot of friends who live in Australia who can't get better than around 200 ping. I also have a lot of friends with disabilities that doesn't allow for them to master or even get very good at more complex builds. So having a easy to understand and use build is healthy for the game. And Mechanist is the build I give to new players and players who wont be able to reach those difficult benchmarks for whatever reason because they should be allowed to enjoy the game too. So we don't need to nerf that. In fact, don't. Just buff all the other engineer specs to be on par with simple rotations and surpass them with more complex rotations.

Clear up some confusion. Easy to use builds are good to have for people with disabilities or poor connections. Accessibility to the game is a good thing! People with disabilities should be able to enjoy the game too.

Part of the the draw of an elite spec is its weapon, mechanic and its unique utility skills. Exceed skills are the holosmith's unique utility skills and you should be able to use them effectively with either a power or condition damage build.

I like the idea of them buffing Exceed skills, personally I would love to run Coolant Blast in WvW but it gets out-shined by Elixir H.