So, how do we like August 23 balance changes?

[Valisha.8650]

Thief

In group content, venoms can account for as much as 25% of a thief condition damage build's total damage. Their solo damage is lacking in comparison. We're shifting some of that damage from venoms to direct attacks with increased condition duration on Death Blossom, Specter's scepter, and Shadow Shroud autoattacks, as well as a 50% increase to the condition damage attribute granted by the trait Deadly Ambition. The net effect of this change is to increase condition damage dealt in solo and open-world play.

Deadeye and Daredevil both get power damage increases as well, giving those builds stronger top-end damage potential.

Dagger (Main Hand)

• Backstab: (PvE only) Front damage multiplier increased from 1.2 to 1.5. Back damage multiplier increased from 2.4 to 3.
• Death Blossom: (PvE only) Bleed duration increased from 10 seconds to 15 seconds.

Dagger (Off Hand)

• Dancing Dagger: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.6 to 0.9.

Pistol (Off Hand)

• Head Shot: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.25 to 1.

Sword

• Slice: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.8 to 0.85.
• Slash: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.8 to 0.85.
• Crippling Strike: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 1.3 to 1.4.
• Infiltrator's Strike: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.75 to 1.8.

Venoms

• Skale Venom: (PvE only) Torment duration decreased from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.
• Spider Venom: (PvE only) Poison duration decreased from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.

Deadly Arts

• Deadly Ambition: (PvE only) Condition damage attribute bonus increased from 120 to 180.

Specter

• Shadow Bolt: (PvE only) Torment duration increased from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.
• Haunt Shot: (PvE only) Torment duration increased from 5 seconds to 6 seconds.

Traits

• Traversing Dusk: Alacrity radius on well cast and healing radius on shadowstep increased from 240 to 360.

Deadeye

• Premeditation: (PvE only) Bonus damage per boon increased from 1% to 1.5%.
• Iron Sight: (PvE only) Bonus damage dealt to and damage reduction taken from your marked target increased from 10% to 15%.

Daredevil

Staff

• Staff Strike: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.66 to 0.75.
• Staff Bash: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 0.66 to 0.80.
• Punishing Strikes: (PvE only) Damage multiplier increased from 1.672 to 1.8.
• Hook Strike (Stealth Attack): (PvE only) Knockdown duration increased from 2 seconds to 4 seconds.

Traits

• Weakening Strikes: (PvE only) Damage dealt to weakened foes increased from 7% to 10%.
• Bounding Dodger: (PvE only) Damage bonus increased from 10% to 15% in PvE, matching PvP and WvW.

[Valisha.8650]

From an alac specter main's perspective;

I actually do like these changes. The wells size increase is a great QoL feature, and Dancing Dagger's damage boost will make cleaving trash mobs much less frustrating. Nerf on Spider Venom should not be as sound, considering duration buff to both auto attacks, combined with additional +60 passive condi damage modifier.

[Nomad.4301]

Those sword changes are just 😂 , it will virtually do nothing for sword in PvE where is goes unused for DPS. The venom changes appear like a straight nerf to condi specter given the "buffs" to scepter only apply to the first hit of the AA chain (which sees little use because of 3333 spam) and the tiny bit more condi damage from Deadly Arts is unlikely make a big difference . Can't really speak for condi DD and that buff as I hate that build and refuse to play anything that relies on deathblossom and its stupid flips..

Not sure why they bothered "buffing" the damage on Dancing Dagger and Headshot because those skills do basically no damage and are utility-only skills but w/e I guess having slightly more power cleave damage could help with D/D DE? Speaking of Deadeye, the buffs are nice (it's potentially an 11% buff on a single-target with all boons or realistically a 8-9% buff), but mechanically rifle DE is still a failure outside of open world and probably won't see any real use, but combined with the backstab buff? d/d deadeye backstab builds could be worth trying again, though thanks to being reliant on annoying positioning it probably still won't be any good in most fights (much like rifle), even if the numbers are there, which I doubt this will be enough.

As for Staff Daredevil, it was already a fairly decent power DPS build that hasn't been touched since... shortly after HoT? So it fell behind many other newer specs with its (now sub-standard) 32k DPS which can now be had by going AFK on a mechanist so I guess they decided It was time to buff it after 5 years, the buffs are about in line with the weapons from the other professions they looked at, and overall could boost average DPS with staff to something more like 35-36k? Which isn't bad for a mindless 3-button 'rotation' though I should say Power mechanist is still able to hit 36k+ when they actually bother pressing a couple buttons.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Nomad.4301
why is D-A censored..

[FelsPinguin.5902]

Traversing Dusk was a no brainer. I never understood why traversing dusk had a range of 240 while Shadow savior had a range of 360 despite both having the function of group heal after a shadow step.

[Tails.9372]

It's just a preview so ofc. there is going to be more but from what they revealed here: I'm not looking forward to any of these changes as none of the issues I care about are going to be addressed. Specter shroud is still going feel extremely sluggish to play especially when compared to Harbinger shroud. The forced teleport on Measured Shot is still going to be annoying, Rifle is still going to have nowhere near the range it should have + I still going to have to jump around like a monkey if I want to use Silent Scope to reset malice and no matter by how much they are going to buff the damage Vital Shot does it's never going to fix the issues I have with the P/P weapon set.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Tails.9372

[lkilian.1854]

I think the changes are great. My only issue is that in my opinion, sword numbers should be tweaked too for pvp/wvw, but since this seems to be a PvE balance patch it's not that much of a problem. I just hope they adress pvp/wvw sword in the future

[Stx.4857]

I'm happy with the changes to death blossom, and the damage boosts to deadeye and dd passives. 

 

I'm very disappointed with the coefficient increases to sword, which is my favorite weapon.  They actually buffed DD staff MORE than sword, and staff was already ahead so...   yeah, really bummed.  I was looking forward to sword getting a buff.

[Asur.9178]

Summary:

• Pistol and sword changes are irrelevant. Sword will continue not being used because those changes are simply not enough to make the weaponset relevant. Those changes are negligible in terms of making them any more useful than they are.
• Staff power Daredevil (pDD) will continue being better than D/D power Deadeye (pDE). Obviously they both get stronger, which is nice after the last patch.
  • Staff pDD does about the same DPS as D/D pDE currently. The only '?' is how much impact will the Backstab (BS) change have, and if it applies to Malicious Backstab (MBS) in the first place since the notes only mention BS.
  • Staff pDD bring more to the table than D/D pDE, especially after the patch with higher cc capability.
  • Staff pDD doesn't care about positioning and has better AoE, unlike D/D pDE, which is a single target pure DPS build. Even the full staff auto attack chain does more damage after the patch.
  • Staff pDD is less cumbersome to play than D/D pDE. Playing a good D/D pDE requires weaving in Shadow Flare in between 2 BS without failing and getting revealed...which is not an easy task for vast majority of the players.
• Condi Specter (cSpc) is getting gutted. Yes, believe it or not, those venom changes does more damage to the spec than those buffs do to help it. Losing 1-2s on venoms is equivalent to losing 30-40s (base with no duration increase), because that's each application from each player.
  • The trait increase has very little impact with just 60 points. It's an almost negligible amount of buff for how much you are losing on venoms with the proposed changes.
  • cSpc does not rely on auto attacks for damage, and thus those buffs to auto attacks are pretty much negligible. In fact, auto attack is the lowest source of damage on the spec because that's simply not how the spec is played. Further to that, the buff to Shadow Bolt is literally the first attack of the auto attack chain - not the whole chain.
  • Condi Daredevil (cDD) is getting a nice buff. It's not losing as much as cSpc, and in fact, the boon cDD version (a niche variant) is benefitting the most from the change.

________________________________________________________

Suggestions for further adjustments:

• Weapon skills:
  • Sword:
    • Auto-attacks: Increase the sword auto attack coefficients a bit more than what's already proposed. 6.25 - 7.69% is far too miniscule to make the weaponset relevant in endgame PvE content.
  • Scepter:
    • Twilight Combo: Increase the duration of poison and torment applied by 1s.
  • Shadow Shroud:
    • Eternal Night: Increase the duration of poison by 2s.
• Utilities:
  • Deadeye:
    • Shadow Flare: Slightly increase the damage coefficient. Eg: 0.6 to 0.7.
• Traits:
  • Deadly Arts:
    • Dagger Training: Increase the additional power when having dagger equipped from 80 to 120. This is similar to Revealed Training. This change not only benefits the power main-hand (MH) dagger builds, which are lacking compared to the staff pDD, but it also benefits builds that use off-hand (OH) dagger, including S/D.
  • Critical Strikes:
    • Deadly Aim: Remove the damage penalty from this trait. Currently, you are better off simply using shortbow with the Practiced Tolerance trait than using this trait. The damage penalty in this trait is completely unnecessary and thus makes it an easy pass if someone is looking for AoE presence.
  • Trickery:
    • Lead Attacks: Increase the damage gain per initiative spent from 1% to 1.5%. This benefits both power and condi builds which utilize the Trickery' traitline. In particular, it benefits condi builds the most, putting some of the lost venom damage back into the thief. Furthermore, it allows open world builds that utilizes this traitline for self-reliance (eg: self-boons) to perform better, allowing vast majority of open world players to do better by default.
  • Daredevil:
    • Impacting Disruption: Thanks to numerous nerfs over the years, this trait has become nothing short of dead in both PvE and PvP. So, it's time for some necromancy. Re-vamp this trait to trigger Pulmonary Impact on cc usage, without requiring interruptions. This will allow builds like power S/P to have some form of competitive presence compared to the other 2 options (D/D or staff). In terms of PvP balance, minor number tweaks achieves that effortlessly if required. This trait is already worse than other similar traits like Lightning Rod, which applies weakness and allows for crits on any cc usage without any delay (Pulmonary Impact cannot crit and only does damage with a delay - no other effects).
  • Specter:
    • Dark Sentry: Allow this trait to apply Rot Wallow Venom to the thief itself. This will put back a lot of the lost damage from the venom changes to the thief, without requiring allies.

Additional notes: I'm hoping all potential oversights with the coming changes on the 23rd will be addressed before going live. For example, I'm hoping the following will be addressed appropriately.

• Backstab: Ensure that the coefficient changes apply to Malicious Backstab as well.
• Traversing Dusk: Ensure there's some way to identify the effective range of the Alacrity with the new proposed 360 radius, even if it means increasing the wells themselves to 360 radius.

I purposely excluded Shadow Arts and Acrobatics from this post because it's akin to beating a dead horse.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Asur.9178
Formatting

[Bunny.9834]

Sword is just so sad. They are so frugal with these “buffs.”

What are they afraid off??? lol

[Skullsox.9162]

When they said buff they really meant "same same but diffrent". Idk just feels like they don't really want us to play thief.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

If they pit that extra damage on scepter 3 (either skill) that would be one thing, but removing damage from venoms to buff scepter auto is not going to achieve the stated goal at all. 

[Naxx.6203]

I mean, sword, dancing dagger, headshot and backstab (assuming it won't affect malicious backstab) damage increases are clearly aimed just for sake of buffing core weapons/skills to ease leveling experience. I wouldn't look much more into it, the same happened for other classes with irrelevant core weapons/skills (even underwater ones).

Edited August 14, 2022 by Nawrotex.9521

[Naxx.6203]

20 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

If they pit that extra damage on scepter 3 (either skill) that would be one thing, but removing damage from venoms to buff scepter auto is not going to achieve the stated goal at all. 

And what was their stated goal?

[Curennos.9307]

They didn't 'shift some damage around', it looks like it's just a flat out nerf with some minor compensation to make it not as bad.

 

At first glance, anyway. I can understand the goal here - and heck I support it, cause it feels bad in open world to have your best damage utilities require a group.

 

But group skills SHOULD be stronger than other options. All they had to do was make some utilities more attractive that didn't require other people to function. 

[Vidit.7108]

I don't know yet how good or bad they will be. 

The daredevil changes look good, but it's hard to know how good they are. A big difference between these notes and previous notes is that these are changes to damage coefficients and not the base numbers. An extra 8% is good though.  Condi Specter might take a big blow because i'm not sure an extra second of torment on the shroud auto really makes up for the huge reduction on skale venom. Maybe some kind of rotation change exists to make up for it but i doubt it. Deadeye got a good buff.

Back in I think 2018 in the patches leading up to War Eternal core thief weapons saw some damage reductions. Daredevil staff in particular saw some % damage reductions to it's auto attack and it looks like we're getting that dps back through these coefficient changes. It's possible now that power dagger could make a comeback on deadeye but again not sure about that, i'm skeptical they'll let it be anywhere as good as it was in the PoF beta.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Vidit.7108

[Vidit.7108]

2 hours ago, Nawrotex.9521 said:

And what was their stated goal?

If you read the design note, they're shifting damage off of venoms and onto weapon attacks so that solo damage is better. That's why death blossom is getting buffed, though that leaves out Pistol/Dagger and short bow from the missing condi.

[Sindust.7059]

It's way too little to make deadeye competitive. It either needs most restrictions lifted from rifle (no movement, exclusively single target, target must be marked or resource management is in the gutters), or core weapons need a hell of a lot more of a buff. It also needs either a lot more capacity for stealth through skills (for example shorter cooldowns or more charges on the elite skill), or the dodge roll stealth trait needs to apply to all weapons to make them a viable option for deadeye.

 

The changes for specter seem reasonable. It was too weak solo, with these changes it shouldn't be.

 

Never liked daredevil, so never really played it, and can't comment on it.

[Gibson.4036]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:19 PM, Tails.9372 said:

It's just a preview so ofc. there is going to be more but from what they revealed here

Don't expect more.

" Below you'll find the comprehensive preview of that update." Emphasis added.

[nopoet.2960]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:21 PM, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

If they pit that extra damage on scepter 3 (either skill) that would be one thing, but removing damage from venoms to buff scepter auto is not going to achieve the stated goal at all. 

I'm confused by the change to venoms too.  Seems like they could have scaled the duration based on the number of players it affects.  Basically leave it alone if it is applied to 5 players but give it bonus duration the fewer players it is applied to.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I do not like it much.  Mostly because it feels like we're being lied to.  It is a method to nerf certain skills and abilities (such as sword) by not giving them as big of a compensatory buff as the other skills get.  

[Chrysaliss.8720]

If those changes bring back D/D deadeye for PvE, then I am happy.

[Bern.9613]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:24 PM, lkilian.1854 said:

...... My only issue is that in my opinion, sword numbers should be tweaked too for pvp/wvw....

Cue the spanish guy laughing meme. We just lived through; Josh Davis: Shadow Arts has long been a source of frustrating gameplay, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW. Now you want compensation by a power increase for sword? Cue that spanish guy again.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Bern.9613

[KingJake.6529]

These sword buffs 💀💀💀

[lkilian.1854]

23 hours ago, Bern.9613 said:

Cue the spanish guy laughing meme. We just lived through; Josh Davis: Shadow Arts has long been a source of frustrating gameplay, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW. Now you want compensation by a power increase for sword? Cue that spanish guy again.

Sword thief is way more engaging to play as and against than shadow arts imo. It's a way healthier route for thief gameplay in wvw/pvp

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

My only gripe right now is that Deadly Aim trait doesnt allow #3 sc/P to pierce allies/enemies (NOT THE BEAM)